Five months

Yodas_Prodigy said:
Faith is a gift from God. We must activate that gift. That fits in nicely with election.
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Your exact words were: "That verse is speaking of the faith required for salvation." (your emphasis). For [our] faith to be required for salvation would say that we have something to do with our salvation (which I agree with). But TULIP does not agree with this statement. TULIP says that election is of God. Some are elect and some are not. In 5-point TULIP the elect cannot get out of it. In lesser (3, in particular) points then some say that an elect person can refuse; some say the elect must still accept. In 5-point TULIP man does not have a say in the matter, therefore faith is of no element to our salvation. Whether faith has some purpose, granted by God, given as a gift from God, is not the issue in these statement. You said "faith [is] required for salvation." This may or may not be your personal theology. I simply pointed our that 5-point TULIP is then forgotten.

Yodas_Prodigy said:
Feel free to look at BDAG or any other reputable Greek source. The Greek word translated faith in this passage means "reliance upon God". I have posted this passage numerous times with that evidence.
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I'm not arguing your definition of faith from BDAG. You said "faith [is] required for salvation." 5-point TULIP says God elects and God alone. It is NOT in any manner (like some sort of God looked forward/backward over time to see what men did and then pre-elected them.....no, that would be garbage to this discussion) reliant upon anything that man does with his gift of faith according to 5-point TULIP.

Yodas_Prodigy said:
As has been said before, the Disciples (Apostles) were given special gifts. Clearly those gifts faded away as the Church was established. An example could be Paul had all the gifts. Yet, he couldn't heal Timothy's stomach ailment. Instead, he advised drinking wine.
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How'd we get to spiritual gifts? But to your points here: (1) yes they were; (2) no, they didn't fade away -- cessationism is heresy; (3) whether of not Paul had all the gifts did not make him "perfect" in exercising them anymore than it make you and I "imperfect" because we are all so full of pride and fear.

Yodas_Prodigy said:
I am glad you brought this up. Your wife died because she had bad teaching and placed her faith in her faith. Having faith in something without power is not going to heal you. It was partially your fault for not making your wife get treatment.
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(2) She had bad teaching and placed her faith in the teacher. (3) True, but the power is there, God given. This timeframe is full of pride and fear and cannot exercise it correctly. And in that, I don't think there is a teacher out there who teaches it correctly (or it would work more consistently). (4) I tried for 17 years to get her to get treatment. There were too many in her life who told her to stay away from (a) doctors, or (b) chemo, and/or (c) cancer treatments. It was the final association with Wommack that taught her that if she went to the doctors for treatment then she did not have faith in what God offered; although he would insist that he was not against doctors, then next breath would be used to say that going to a doctor denied the patient of faith in God. So, no, it wasn't for lack of trying. At some point it became her insistence vs our marriage. In August of 2018 she fell and her lung collapsed. I tried to keep the Wommack books away from her. There was a distinct point when I felt God tell me to let her have them, it was too late and she wasn't going to change. So how do you "make" someone do something against their free will?

Yodas_Prodigy said:
Notice this passage. Adam was with Eve when the serpent tempted her... He didn't step in to help her.
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That's Copeland's teaching. Sure.

There is also the fact that Jesus was preordained to be our Savior from sin before Eve ever ate that fruit. It wasn't Eve's choice. It is God's story to tell.

Yodas_Prodigy said:
He said to the woman, “Did God actually say, ‘You[a] shall not eat of any tree in the garden’?” 2 And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat of the fruit of the trees in the garden, 3 but God said, ‘You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree that is in the midst of the garden, neither shall you touch it, lest you die.’” 4 But the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. 5 For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” 6 So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate, and she also gave some to her husband who was with her, and he ate.
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And who created Satan?
And who gave him a possible path to become evil.
And why did his disobedience result in execration? While others who had similar pride were punished, but not execrated.
If Eve had a choice (she didn't), then what becomes of Jesus' role as Savior when there is no sin? (And, "well, someone would have sinned eventually is not an answer since Jesus is the Last Adam, not the Last Joe.

Yodas_Prodigy said:
When my wife was going through Childbirth, she was in extreme pain. She was afraid to get an epidural because it would look like she lacked faith. I made her take the epidural. When it came to her getting cancer, there was no issue about faith. We dug our heals in, relied on God, and got the necessary treatments.
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(1) my wife didn't have such extreme pain -- she had c-sections for both boys (with epidurals). (2) why would that be a lack of faith? (3) Good. (And I mean that: good!). (4) God created all things, including the knowledge that the doctors have at any point in time, the medicines that we have at our disposal at any point in time, and the insight to use all that when in need. (So: good!!). I pray all is well with her.

You have to remember something Joe -- you nicknamed me Neo-WoF because I was not WoF. I did not -- ever! -- condone her not going to a doctor and not using whatever prescription/treatment that they offered. We had some drop down arguments over the subject, but ultimately it was her body and her choice for that. I could only try to convince her that (a) early on her dad was wrong in telling her to stay away from chemo; (b) that the Copelands were wrong to demonize doctors and the medical field; and finally, (c) that Wommack was a f------ idiot. She would not believe what I had to say. There were too many "testimonials of healing." When I cancer returned in around 2010, I reminded her that we were one of those "testimonials of healing." I think I even posted the story on earlier versions of CARM. I pressed on her: what happened to our "testimony of healing?" Why did she believe them, when her own fell apart and failed her?
 
Tallen said:
This is true.

"Faith is a reaction of a believer in relation to the faithfulness of YHWH. He is always the cause of faith in Him from the believer, because as we have seen in the previous chapter, He is faithful. Therefore, the believer responds to God’s faithfulness and it is because of His faithfulness that He causes the believer to have faith. “As a comment on our exposition of the ruling meaning of “faith” in Scripture, we may note that this precisely corresponds to its meaning in common life, where, for once that the word means anything else, it means “reliance” a hundred times. Such correspondence between religious terms (in Scripture) and the meaning of the same words in common life, will be found to be invariable. Faith means that YHWH’s people become reliant upon Him. It is never linked to any idea that man is to cause his own faith to emerge from his own knowledge or effort. But it always to be understood as fruit of His faithfulness. This relationship with YHWH that results in this trust is called fruit of the Spirit in Galatians 5:22." The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia

“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.” (Gal 5:22-23, KJV)

The fruit of the Spirit is... reliance upon YHWH.
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Nothing your write here corroborates Joe's statement that "faith [is] required for salvation." Nothing here references salvation once. I am not arguing (nor agreeing) with the definition of faith. I simply said that if "faith [is] required for salvation" then 5-point TULIP is out the window. Election in this system does not require nor expect man's cooperation.
 
Yodas_Prodigy said:
www.gotquestions.org

What should I do when God says no? | GotQuestions.org

What should I do when God says no? Why does it seem like God sometimes says no to my prayers?
www.gotquestions.org
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I ask you where in scripture it says this and you give me someone's interpretation of many verses to come to a pre-supposed opinion?

We've covered people who don't get their wishes in the past, for instance the woman who said she was going to be Kenneth Copeland's wife. I forget what she was going to do with Gloria, but..... That was a 'no.'

Your article (and scripture) doesn't cover "maybe." God has no "maybe." He knows the yes and the no of everything.
 
BlessedAnomaly said:
I simply said that if "faith [is] required for salvation" then 5-point TULIP is out the window. Election in this system does not require nor expect man's cooperation.
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This is a problem in your theology, which is being forced into Reformed theology, thinking that faith isn't necessary for justification (salvation) in Reformed theology. Salvation is according to a Covenant, and based upon a legal action by YHWH, in which He gives His Spirit to His people, who then gifts and produces faith in that person. This is an act of justification, He justifies us, and begins His work of salvation.

Your theology:
Justification (salvation) is a cooperative work, God and a person offering faith.
Synergism for salvation, monergism for sanctification.

Reformed theology:
Justification is an act of God alone, which results in a person having faith and then cooperating in their changing (sanctification).
Monergism for salvation, synergism for sanctification.
 
Tallen said:
This is a problem in your theology, which is being forced into Reformed theology, thinking that faith isn't necessary for justification (salvation) in Reformed theology. Salvation is according to a Covenant, and based upon a legal action by YHWH, in which He gives His Spirit to His people, who then gifts and produces faith in that person. This is an act of justification, He justifies us, and begins His work of salvation.
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You have said in the past that you are not a 5-point (TULIP) Calvinist. So what are you telling me here? Something that is not 5-point, and thus nothing to do with my statements; or that you have repented to your Calvinist roots and re-adopted 5-point Calvinism.

Tallen said:
Your theology:
Justification (salvation) is a cooperative work, God and a person offering faith.
Synergism for salvation, monergism for sanctification.

Reformed theology:
Justification is an act of God alone, which results in a person having faith and then cooperating in their changing (sanctification).
Monergism for salvation, synergism for sanctification.
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Hi, Cleo. How are you?

I can't save myself. Only God justifies. The acceptance of the gift of salvation is not justification. It is the acceptance of an offer, a gift of Grace.

You once told me that you thought one could reject/walk-away-from his election. Do you still think this? This is not monergism.
 
BlessedAnomaly said:
You have said in the past that you are not a 5-point (TULIP) Calvinist. So what are you telling me here? Something that is not 5-point, and thus nothing to do with my statements; or that you have repented to your Calvinist roots and re-adopted 5-point Calvinism.


Hi, Cleo. How are you?

I can't save myself. Only God justifies. The acceptance of the gift of salvation is not justification. It is the acceptance of an offer, a gift of Grace.

You once told me that you thought one could reject/walk-away-from his election. Do you still think this? This is not monergism.
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Did you see that I said Reformed theology..., not my theology?
 
Tallen said:
So you can use God's word out of context, as long as you can make it fit your concept? In other words, context doesn't determine interpretation. Anything goes.
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SO - explain to me what the difference is between "Saving Faith" (that gets a person "Born again of the Holy Spirit"), and the "Faith to move mountains".

How many "Different types of FAITH" do you think there are??? And WHICH of the "TYPES" is defined at Heb 11:1???
 
Bob Carabbio said:
SO - explain to me what the difference is between "Saving Faith" (that gets a person "Born again of the Holy Spirit"), and the "Faith to move mountains".

How many "Different types of FAITH" do you think there are??? And WHICH of the "TYPES" is defined at Heb 11:1???
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You're obfuscating and ignoring the point. Your post has nothing to do with answering my question. Are you related to AB.

So, you can use God's word out of context, as long as you can make it fit your concept? In other words, context doesn't determine interpretation. Anything goes.
 
Faith comes from God's Word the Bible through His one and only Son Jesus Christ. John 3:16 says it all!
 
BlessedAnomaly said:
Your exact words were: "That verse is speaking of the faith required for salvation." (your emphasis). For [our] faith to be required for salvation would say that we have something to do with our salvation (which I agree with). But TULIP does not agree with this statement. TULIP says that election is of God. Some are elect and some are not. In 5-point TULIP the elect cannot get out of it. In lesser (3, in particular) points then some say that an elect person can refuse; some say the elect must still accept. In 5-point TULIP man does not have a say in the matter, therefore faith is of no element to our salvation. Whether faith has some purpose, granted by God, given as a gift from God, is not the issue in these statement. You said "faith [is] required for salvation." This may or may not be your personal theology. I simply pointed our that 5-point TULIP is then forgotten.
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Your lack of understanding is clear. From the Reformed Faith - Salvation is by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone... That does not neutralize or leave out the Reformed "TULIP"... The two are not mutually exclusive... They work in harmony. Your dispensational glasses forces you to dispensationalize...
 
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