Food for thought

Aaron32

Active member
Interesting question for my fellow members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints:

What does the light of Christ do? Moroni 7:19

What was the forbidden fruit in the garden of Eden?

Do you think there’s a relationship there?

Now, consider Moroni 7:16. Is this because of the fall? Did we not have the light of Christ in the pre-mortal life?
 

brotherofJared

Active member
I'm not drawing a connection between the fruit and the light of Christ. I certainly can't see that it helps explain what the forbidden fruit was. "searching in the light of Christ", to me, means following the dots. If it points to Christ, then it is of Christ (of course, this is a logical conclusion). It's an argument for the Book of Mormon, being that it points to Christ and therefore is of Christ.

Whether or not we had the light of Christ (which everyone here did have it since we are here) in the preexistence, doesn't follow that Adam and Eve understood this principle in the garden since they forgot everything from before they were born, the same as us. It seems unreasonable that they were taught the role Christ would play until after they partook of the fruit (had they known that he would save them it would have made the consequences of partaking of that fruit less final. I believe there had to be a real consequence. This is similar to Abraham's test. He had to believe that God actually required his only son's life or it would have been of no consequence). So, I don't see how the light of Christ could have influenced their decision in the garden. But I'm probably missing your whole point.
 

Aaron32

Active member
I'm not drawing a connection between the fruit and the light of Christ. I certainly can't see that it helps explain what the forbidden fruit was. "searching in the light of Christ", to me, means following the dots. If it points to Christ, then it is of Christ (of course, this is a logical conclusion). It's an argument for the Book of Mormon, being that it points to Christ and therefore is of Christ.

Whether or not we had the light of Christ (which everyone here did have it since we are here) in the preexistence, doesn't follow that Adam and Eve understood this principle in the garden since they forgot everything from before they were born, the same as us. It seems unreasonable that they were taught the role Christ would play until after they partook of the fruit (had they known that he would save them it would have made the consequences of partaking of that fruit less final. I believe there had to be a real consequence. This is similar to Abraham's test. He had to believe that God actually required his only son's life or it would have been of no consequence). So, I don't see how the light of Christ could have influenced their decision in the garden. But I'm probably missing your whole point.
Thanks for your response. I don’t really have a point, just something to think about. There’s really no right or wrong answers, I just find it ironic that the forbidden fruit and the light of Christ did the same thing.
 

brotherofJared

Active member
Thanks for your response. I don’t really have a point, just something to think about. There’s really no right or wrong answers, I just find it ironic that the forbidden fruit and the light of Christ did the same thing.
I believe they did the opposite things. The forbidden fruit brought death. It also brought a knowledge of good and evil. The light of Christ brings life. It is the reasonable hope that all good things come through Christ. I don't believe we can get anymore knowledge than we have now about good and evil.
 

Aaron32

Active member
I believe they did the opposite things. The forbidden fruit brought death. It also brought a knowledge of good and evil. The light of Christ brings life. It is the reasonable hope that all good things come through Christ. I don't believe we can get anymore knowledge than we have now about good and evil.
But if they had never partaken of the fruit, they would have remained in the Garden forever, having no joy, for they knew no evil. (2 Nephi 2)
I don't know about the Light of Christ bringing Life - When the scriptures mention the Light and Life found in Christ, they are always separated with an "and" from what I can see. It leads us to what is good, but then we must act, and if we don't our conscience torments us. In that way, you could say the Light of Christ brings hell upon us.
Yet, as we are unable recognize our sins and imperfections, we may be at peace, but we neither are we able to progress either. Thus "6 It is impossible for a man to be saved in ignorance." - D&C 131:6
Interestingly enough, Adam attributes his transgression not the fruit for his eyes being opened. "for because of my transgression my eyes are opened, and in this life I shall have joy, and again in the flesh I shall see God." - Moses 5:10
 

brotherofJared

Active member
I don't know about the Light of Christ bringing Life
The term, Life, here refers to salvation or eternal life.
When the scriptures mention the Light and Life found in Christ, they are always separated with an "and" from what I can see. It leads us to what is good, but then we must act, and if we don't our conscience torments us. In that way, you could say the Light of Christ brings hell upon us.
Umm. No. If I don't act, my conscience doesn't torment me at all. In fact, most of the time, I'm not even certain what good thing I can be doing and my life goes on very untormented. I don't even think that most people are tormented when they do evil things. They justify themselves and thereby pacify any torment that might arise. Most of our critics are like this. They justify the evil they do, even blaming their actions on God or the scriptures. They aren't tormented one bit. Likewise, in the riots... those guys aren't tormented even a little. The guy who killed another saw no error in his ways. He believed he was right and that his actions were justifiable. His torment comes only in that he was caught and the law of the land.

The light of Christ enables us to choose between them and know what's right. But I don't think it brings any torment if we do what's wrong. Generally, it's like a frog in the pot. The water gradually warms until it's too late for the frog. He's not even aware of the danger he's in until it's too late.

Yet, as we are unable recognize our sins and imperfections, we may be at peace, but we neither are we able to progress either. Thus "6 It is impossible for a man to be saved in ignorance." - D&C 131:6
Ignorance of what though? We all sin in ignorance, but I don't believe that makes it impossible to be saved. I believe the ignorance they are talking about isn't what we do wrong, but ignorance of how we can be saved. That's why no one will be ignorant of Jesus Christ no matter when they were born. Because without a knowledge of him, there's no way we can be saved.
Interestingly enough, Adam attributes his transgression not the fruit for his eyes being opened. "for because of my transgression my eyes are opened, and in this life I shall have joy, and again in the flesh I shall see God." - Moses 5:10
I don't understand your take on this. His transgression was partaking of the fruit. In effect, the statement goes like this, "for because I partook of the forbidden fruit, my eyes are opened..."
 

zerinus

Active member
Interesting question for my fellow members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints:

What does the light of Christ do? Moroni 7:19
It is the Light that "lighteth every man that cometh into the world" (John 1:9).
What was the forbidden fruit in the garden of Eden?
A forbidden fruit.
Do you think there’s a relationship there?
If there is, I can't think of one.
Now, consider Moroni 7:16. Is this because of the fall?
If you are suggesting that had it not been for the Fall, we might not have had that Spirit, I don't think that necessarily follows. Did Adam and Eve had that Spirit in the garden of Eden prior to the Fall? I think that they did, not necessarily to teach them to distinguish between good and evil, but to enlighten them concerning matters of divine truth.
Did we not have the light of Christ in the pre-mortal life?
I am sure we did.
 

Aaron32

Active member
(Read the bottom paragraph before you reply - I don’t want to waste your time.)
The term, Life, here refers to salvation or eternal life.
Ok, but how does that follow? I thought we were talking about the meaning of ‘light’.
What does ‘light’ mean here:

D&C 93:
2 And that I am the true light that lighteth every man that cometh into the world;

Umm. No. If I don't act, my conscience doesn't torment me at all. In fact, most of the time, I'm not even certain what good thing I can be doing and my life goes on very untormented. I don't even think that most people are tormented when they do evil things. They justify themselves and thereby pacify any torment that might arise.
Inaction is still an action, given a choice. Everyone has guilt of mistakes they have made, or regrets of not taking action when they should have - If not against God, against their fellow men.
But I agree, some people can be unaware of downright wickedness because of their upbringing, and some because of a continued lifestyle in sin and rationalization being “past feeling.” (1 Ne 17:45)
This is where followers of Christ hold up their light, to become “spotless from the world.” (3 Ne 27:16)

Most of our critics are like this. They justify the evil they do, even blaming their actions on God or the scriptures. They aren't tormented one bit. Likewise, in the riots... those guys aren't tormented even a little. The guy who killed another saw no error in his ways. He believed he was right and that his actions were justifiable. His torment comes only in that he was caught and the law of the land.
In terms of our critics- In some cases, I agree with you (John 16:2). In other cases, it could be a deep feeling of guilt/shame for burying their covenants (if they’ve left the church and they’re still fighting it.) And, In other cases, it could be projection. It’s not up to us to judge.
As far as riots go - those are orchestrated by groups that stir up contention to the point of violence and destruction. It doesn’t mean they wouldn’t regret it the morning after. Yet, in those cases where they’ve been indoctrinated, they still have a moral code and will be judged against the judgments of others.
I believe the Light of Christ is all of these scenarios, though in degrees, some being dimmer than others, and still maintain it’s recognized by our conscience.

The light of Christ enables us to choose between them and know what's right. But I don't think it brings any torment if we do what's wrong. Generally, it's like a frog in the pot. The water gradually warms until it's too late for the frog. He's not even aware of the danger he's in until it's too late.
Right. In the moment, we may not feel any torment. But I think there’s sins of omission where the light of Christ would tell us “Maybe I should [fill in the blank].”
And though they may not have their battles of morality on what WE might consider “right” and “wrong”, they have their battles of morality somewhere.
For example, Do rich people see the suffering of other countries, and do they care? Some do, some don’t. But then a catastrophic event will happen and wealth is lost, and they go into fear and panic mode - and they are tormented that way. I mean, c’mon, the pride cycle - this is a major theme in the Book of Mormon.
In the end, all “worldly” securities are taken away, and that’s what will torment them if they haven’t repented.

Ignorance of what though? We all sin in ignorance, but I don't believe that makes it impossible to be saved. I believe the ignorance they are talking about isn't what we do wrong, but ignorance of how we can be saved. That's why no one will be ignorant of Jesus Christ no matter when they were born. Because without a knowledge of him, there's no way we can be saved.
Hmmm...ok.

I don't understand your take on this. His transgression was partaking of the fruit. In effect, the statement goes like this, "for because I partook of the forbidden fruit, my eyes are opened..."

Well, I started the OP identifying that scripturally the forbidden fruit and the light of Christ did the same thing. It doesn’t make sense that all men are born with the light of Christ, but Adam and Eve weren’t. (of course they weren’t really “born” were they?)
I’m postulating Maybe the fruit had nothing to do with it, maybe it was the violation of the commandment given (“the transgression”) that opened their eyes, not necessarily the fruit. But that’s just unverified postulation.
—-
I got to be straight with you. I’m not really finding edification in this discussion. I just started it because I was bored. I’m all about “reasoning together” but this feels too much like a debate. It’s a mystery and doesn’t really matter. So you can have the last word on this, but don’t to much work into it if your expecting a response. I’m moving on.
 

Aaron32

Active member
It is the Light that "lighteth every man that cometh into the world" (John 1:9).

A forbidden fruit.
Deep.

If there is, I can't think of one.
Well, I guess lack of effort shows that it’s not much of a conversation to be worth having. Unfortunate.

If you are suggesting that had it not been for the Fall, we might not have had that Spirit, I don't think that necessarily follows. Did Adam and Eve had that Spirit in the garden of Eden prior to the Fall? I think that they did, not necessarily to teach them to distinguish between good and evil, but to enlighten them concerning matters of divine truth.

I am sure we did.
It’s all speculation anyway, right?
 

brotherofJared

Active member
Well, I started the OP identifying that scripturally the forbidden fruit and the light of Christ did the same thing. It doesn’t make sense that all men are born with the light of Christ, but Adam and Eve weren’t. (of course they weren’t really “born” were they?)
I’m postulating Maybe the fruit had nothing to do with it, maybe it was the violation of the commandment given (“the transgression”) that opened their eyes, not necessarily the fruit. But that’s just unverified postulation.
—-
I got to be straight with you. I’m not really finding edification in this discussion. I just started it because I was bored. I’m all about “reasoning together” but this feels too much like a debate. It’s a mystery and doesn’t really matter. So you can have the last word on this, but don’t to much work into it if your expecting a response. I’m moving on.
So, I'll respond to the bottom paragraph first. Yes, they were really born, just like you and I were. They have a mother and a father who made a child just like we do. Statements from both Brigham Young and Joseph F Smith to this effect are two that agree with me on that subject. Of course, we don't know. There is no church doctrine on it, but is not empirical evidence that supports that they were actually made as a statue of clay and then turned into living flesh. We have the Genesis narrative, but we are all formed from the dust of the earth. It seems likely, that they were formed in exactly the same way we were.

I'm, approaching your post kind of randomly, I didn't get the same thing you did from the scriptures concerning the fruit and the light of Christ. The light of Christ is more of a compass pointing to right. The forbidden fruit open the door without a compass.

Now, according to the scriptures, Adam and Eve had the gospel of Jesus Christ taught to them "from the beginning", but when they were born, they forgot everything, just like we do. But like us also, that doesn't mean they lost the light of Christ, the moral compass. How much of the gospel they had before they partook of the fruit, I don't know. I'm sure many things that were taught to them wouldn't have the same "glue" that it had before they were born. But, we also don't have the same glue. Some things make sense right away and some things come to us only after being enlightened (but I think that's the Holy Spirit, not the light of Christ).

And again, I don't think the light of Christ "opens our eyes". It is simply an innate understanding that certain things are wrong, like to kill for pleasure or gain, or to steal, or to cheat. We know it's wrong without being told. That is what the light of Christ does for us.

On another not, but somewhat related, during our formative years, we learn the art of negotiation. We learn that we can't just simply demand things. We discover the world of give and take. When we take something dishonestly, we feel guilt but often times, the reward, instant gratification, outweighs the guilt and we excuse ourselves and sometimes, some of us learn that being meek just means losing, being humble just means never getting our just reward, or being submissive just means loosing out. And from there, we start to develop a strategy about how to win. Some of us ignore the light of Christ altogether and some of us bargain to hide in the dark while mostly living in the light (there are others along this spectrum, to be sure, but the idea is to show that nothing about the light of Christ opens our eyes). The light of Christ can also be termed as our conscience. The nagging feeling that we have done is wrong and the desire to correct it. That's what i think the light of Christ represents and every person is born with it to some extent.

Oh, you meant after the --

Since I put this much work into it, I'm going to post it, but if I had read this part, I wouldn't have written anything on it. But my post is probably going to stir some evangelicals up, especially about the birth part.
 

zerinus

Active member
A forbidden fruit is just a forbidden fruit. It doesn't need to be any "deeper" than it is.
Well, I guess lack of effort shows that it’s not much of a conversation to be worth having. Unfortunate.
:alien:
It’s all speculation anyway, right?
Why? The Holy Spirit's properties and attributes are defined in scripture as follows:

Doctrine and Covenants 88:

11 And the light which shineth, which giveth you light, is through him who enlighteneth your eyes, which is the same light that quickeneth your understandings;
12 Which light proceedeth forth from the presence of God to fill the immensity of space
13 The light which is in all things, which giveth life to all things, which is the law by which all things are governed, even the power of God who sitteth upon his throne, who is in the bosom of eternity, who is in the midst of all things.


Can you give me a good reason why this should not be equally applicable to the spirits in the preexistence?
 

The Prophet

Member
Mormons follow a different Christ than Christians...So the light they follow is not the TRUE CHRIST

The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak. For the Christ of whom I speak as been revealed in this the Dispensation of the Fullness of Times. He together with His Father, appeared to the boy Joseph Smith in the year 1820, and when Joseph left the grove that day, he knew more of the matters of God than all the learned ministers of the gospel of the ages." (Church News, June 20, 1998, p70) Gordon B Hinckley

We Look to Christ 2002 General Conference April

LDS Apostle Bruce McConkie taught that Christians have "a mythical Christ" (Mormon Doctrine, p.269). That means we must decide which faith has the real Christ because somebody clearly has a mythical Christ. Do these faiths have the same Jesus? No, if you read the LDS Ensign. It says Christian Churches worship a different Jesus (May 1977, p.26).

 

Aaron32

Active member
A forbidden fruit is just a forbidden fruit. It doesn't need to be any "deeper" than it is.

:alien:

Why? The Holy Spirit's properties and attributes are defined in scripture as follows:

Doctrine and Covenants 88:

11 And the light which shineth, which giveth you light, is through him who enlighteneth your eyes, which is the same light that quickeneth your understandings;
12 Which light proceedeth forth from the presence of God to fill the immensity of space
13 The light which is in all things, which giveth life to all things, which is the law by which all things are governed, even the power of God who sitteth upon his throne, who is in the bosom of eternity, who is in the midst of all things.


Can you give me a good reason why this should not be equally applicable to the spirits in the preexistence?
See vs 7 - it is the light of Christ
A spirit is organized intelligence. The light of Christ make up all things.
An individual spirit does not make up all thing.
Moreover, your making an argument from absence, that’s a fallacy.

You tell me not to make it deeper than it is, and speculation is bad. I think the above shows your hypocrisy.
 

Aaron32

Active member
Mormons follow a different Christ than Christians...So the light they follow is not the TRUE CHRIST

The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak. For the Christ of whom I speak as been revealed in this the Dispensation of the Fullness of Times. He together with His Father, appeared to the boy Joseph Smith in the year 1820, and when Joseph left the grove that day, he knew more of the matters of God than all the learned ministers of the gospel of the ages." (Church News, June 20, 1998, p70) Gordon B Hinckley

We Look to Christ 2002 General Conference April

LDS Apostle Bruce McConkie taught that Christians have "a mythical Christ" (Mormon Doctrine, p.269). That means we must decide which faith has the real Christ because somebody clearly has a mythical Christ. Do these faiths have the same Jesus? No, if you read the LDS Ensign. It says Christian Churches worship a different Jesus (May 1977, p.26).

Ok. Who forgot to turn of the random post generator?
 

zerinus

Active member
See vs 7 - it is the light of Christ
A spirit is organized intelligence. The light of Christ make up all things.
An individual spirit does not make up all thing.
Moreover, your making an argument from absence, that’s a fallacy.

You tell me not to make it deeper than it is, and speculation is bad. I think the above shows your hypocrisy.
I think your problem is that you don't know your scriptures very well. Here are some verses for you to think about:

Doctrine and Covenants 36:

2 And I will lay my hand upon you by the hand of my servant Sidney Rigdon, and you shall receive my Spirit, the Holy Ghost, even the Comforter, which shall teach you the peaceable things of the kingdom.

Doctrine and Covenants 25:

7 And thou shalt be ordained under his hand to expound all scriptures, and to exhort the church, according as it shall be given thee by my Spirit.
8 For he shall lay his hands upon thee, and thou shalt receive the Holy Ghost,

Doctrine and Covenants 124:

97 Let him be humble before me, and be without guile, and he shall receive my Spirit, even the Comforter, which shall manifest unto him the truth of all things, and shall give unto him in the very hour what he shall say.

Doctrine and Covenants 121:

26 God shall give you knowledge by his Holy Spirit, yea, by the unspeakable gift of the Holy Ghost, that has not been revealed since the world was until now.

3 Nephi 20:

27 And after that ye were blessed, then fulfilleth the Father the covenant which he made with Abraham, saying, In thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed—unto the pouring out of the Holy Ghost through me [Jesus] upon the Gentiles, which blessing upon the Gentiles shall make them mighty above all, unto the scattering of my people O house of Israel.

Acts 2:

32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he has shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

Titus 3:

5 But according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and the renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour.

Doctrine and Covenants 100:

8 And I give unto you this promise that inasmuch as ye do this, the Holy Ghost shall be shed forth in bearing record unto all things whatsoever ye shall say.

Moses 6
:

61 Therefore it [Holy Ghost] is given to abide in you: the record of heaven, the Comforter, the peaceable things of immortal glory, the truth of all things; that which quickeneth all things, which maketh alive all things; that which knoweth all things; and has all power according to wisdom, mercy, truth, justice and judgment.

According to these verses, the Holy Ghost, the Spirit of Christ, and the Light of Christ are one the same thing. Don't you feel lucky to have someone as knowledgeable as I am to educate you about the word of God? I wasn't so lucky you know, I had to figure it out by myself!
 
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