For Arminians: Did Christ Die For Those Whom God Knew Would Never Believe?

T

TomFL

Guest
Only he didn't pay us, he payed the Father. And the Father cannot collect twice without being unjust.

Nay it is your sloppy logic.
Atonement is provisional

If it is not accepted sins are not remitted

John 3:14 tells us about the serpent on the stick

John 3:14 (KJV)
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

those who looked to the upraised serpent were healed those who did not were not healed
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Did Christ take away the sins of fear, unbelief, abomination, murder, whoremongering, sorcery, idolatry, lies?

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Did Christ take away the sin of unbelief, rejection of Him?
 

Simpletruther

Well-known member
Atonement is provisional

If it is not accepted sins are not remitted

John 3:14 tells us about the serpent on the stick

John 3:14 (KJV)
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

those who looked to the upraised serpent were healed those who did not were not heale
If salvation depends on your faith then that sin wasn't taken away.
 
T

TomFL

Guest
So Christ didn't take away the sin of impenitence correct?
Unbelief in Christ

John 12:47-48 (KJV)
47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

What you do with Christ will determine your future
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Unbelief in Christ

John 12:47-48 (KJV)
47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

What you do with Christ will determine your future
So Christ didn't die for unbelief in Him ? Right
 

PeanutGallery

Well-known member
I'm going to ask you one more time.

Did Christ take away the sin of unbelief, rejection of Him?
You can ask a thousand times; if he takes away the sins of fear, abomination, murder, whoremongering, sorcery, idolatry, lies; he also takes away the sin of unbelief.

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
You can ask a thousand times; if he takes away the sins of fear, abomination, murder, whoremongering, sorcery, idolatry, lies; he also takes away the sin of unbelief.

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Did you really just say that and mean it; or was it a Typo?
 

Carbon

Well-known member
Did Christ die for the sins of those whom God KNEW would never believe?
I believe scripture teaches, No, He did not.
If so, there would be people who live their entire life unbelieving. More so, they would be in heaven as unbelievers as well.
If so...WHY? WHY would God the Father impute the sins of those whom He KNEW would never believe in Christ to His Son and allow Him to suffer the penalty of His wrath for them full well knowing that it would be in vain?
According to His word, He wouldn't.

It is very unscriptural to assume Christ died for unbelievers who will never believe.
Christ did however, die for unbelievers who cannot believe of themselves. John 3:3, John 6:44, 65.

Everyone who Christ died for will, without a doubt, be saved and go to heaven.
It seems painfully clear to me here that Arminians have to concede that there is a limit to the Atonement in at least some degree. If not, then they have to explain why God the Father would let His Son die for some people's sins on the cross when He knew they would never believe.

I think this question gets right down to the core of whether Christ's atonement was general or specific.
It was specific.

If the Son of God Himself, paid ones penalty, this person could not possible go anywhere but heaven.

I believe it was a specific and literal sacrifice. God the Father would not be just if He punished an innocent person. We all know Christ was innocent, holy and righteous. However, God punished (crushed) Him. Christ would have had to willingly volunteer to take our (the elects) sins upon Him or the law would have no grounds or justice to inflict our (the elects) punishment on Him.
I believe He knew His elect personally and intimately. Christ would have to have had some relationship to our sin in order for the punishment and sacrifice to be just.
He made Him who knew no sin to be sin in our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. 2 Cor 5:21. Double imputation.

If Christ died for everyone (all of Adam's posterity) unrepentant unbelievers would become the righteousness of God. Imagine that for a minute.
 

Carbon

Well-known member
Actually it demonstrates the extent of God's love; God specifically loved the world in this manner in that he gave his only Son to take away the sin of the world which lies in wickedness.
Respectfully, .... that's not saying anything.
 

harfad

New Member
If he took away the sin of the world, then the world we be saved right?
So those that don't believe have their sins taken away?
WhY then punishment is sin is taken away?
But you said he took away the sin.
How can there be guilt if sin is taken away?
Is unbelief a sin?
So either He didn't die for that sin, or He did.

If He did, then one will definitely be saved by the means He uses. Because he took on all their sins and paid for them.

If He didn't take on the sin of unbelief, then faith is works righteousness
Only he didn't pay us, he payed the Father. And the Father cannot collect twice without being unjust.

Nay it is your sloppy logic.
If salvation depends on your faith then that sin wasn't taken away.
I have read through all your comments, and they are all based on the faulty assumption that sins atoned for must be remitted unconditionally, which is not biblical. The Bible teaches, firstly, that the Atonement itself is universal. It covers all men’s sins:

John 1:29 “The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.”

1 John 2:2 “And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.”

Romans 5:18 “Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.”

2 Corinthians 5:14-15 “For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.”

1 Timothy 2:3-6 “For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.”

Hebrews 2:9 “But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.”

2 Peter 3:9 “The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”

So there is no question that the Bible teaches the universality of the Atonement. The benefits received from it, however, are dependent on faith:

John 3:14-18 “And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

And the following verses suggest that it is possible for someone for whom Christ died, whose sins were atoned for, not to be saved:

Romans 14:15 But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.

1 Corinthians 8:11 “And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?”

2 Peter 2:1 “But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.”
 

Kade Rystalmane

Well-known member
It appears unmistakably clear that God KNEW that many (Most) of Israel would never believe in Jesus as the Messiah. John makes a point of it many times in his gospel. The passage that stands out incredibly to me on this is in John 12.


"37 Even after Jesus had performed so many signs in their presence, they still would not believe in him. 38 This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet:

“Lord, who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?”[h]
39 For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere:

40 “He has blinded their eyes
and hardened their hearts,
so they can neither see with their eyes,
nor understand with their hearts,
nor turn—and I would heal them.” John 12:37-40

2 points of observation here:

1) God KNEW ahead of time that many among Israel would not believe in Jesus as Messiah and receive Him. He foretold it long ago through Isaiah.
2) John appears to indicate that God not only KNEW they would never believe, but that God hardened their hearts and blinded their eyes so that THEY COULD NOT believe.

It raises the question:

Did Christ die for the sins of those whom God KNEW would never believe? If so...WHY? WHY would God the Father impute the sins of those whom He KNEW would never believe in Christ to His Son and allow Him to suffer the penalty of His wrath for them full well knowing that it would be in vain?

It seems painfully clear to me here that Arminians have to concede that there is a limit to the Atonement in at least some degree. If not, then they have to explain why God the Father would let His Son die for some people's sins on the cross when He knew they would never believe.

I think this question gets right down to the core of whether Christ's atonement was general or specific.
Welcome to CARM. I'm not an Armenian, but I'm well beyond them in relation to Calvinism, so perhaps I'm a legitimate target for your question, too.

I would argue that the question is based on a flawed premise. In verse 39-40, I believe the hardening was temporary and for a purpose. Some refer to it as "judicial hardening" that was later removed (see Acts 2:37). Christ died for all mankind (John 3:16; Titus 2:11) and in fact, Jesus said that when He was lifted up (on the cross) He would draw all men unto Him. Everyone who hears the gospel hears that call. Free will allows us to reject the call out of selfishness or pride or fear or whatever, but all may answer, even the Jews in the context you brought up.

In Truth and Love.
 
It appears unmistakably clear that God KNEW that many (Most) of Israel would never believe in Jesus as the Messiah. John makes a point of it many times in his gospel. The passage that stands out incredibly to me on this is in John 12.


"37 Even after Jesus had performed so many signs in their presence, they still would not believe in him. 38 This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet:

“Lord, who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?”[h]
39 For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere:

40 “He has blinded their eyes
and hardened their hearts,
so they can neither see with their eyes,
nor understand with their hearts,
nor turn—and I would heal them.” John 12:37-40

2 points of observation here:

1) God KNEW ahead of time that many among Israel would not believe in Jesus as Messiah and receive Him. He foretold it long ago through Isaiah.
2) John appears to indicate that God not only KNEW they would never believe, but that God hardened their hearts and blinded their eyes so that THEY COULD NOT believe.

It raises the question:

Did Christ die for the sins of those whom God KNEW would never believe? If so...WHY? WHY would God the Father impute the sins of those whom He KNEW would never believe in Christ to His Son and allow Him to suffer the penalty of His wrath for them full well knowing that it would be in vain?

It seems painfully clear to me here that Arminians have to concede that there is a limit to the Atonement in at least some degree. If not, then they have to explain why God the Father would let His Son die for some people's sins on the cross when He knew they would never believe.

I think this question gets right down to the core of whether Christ's atonement was general or specific.
I'm not Arminians or Calvinist since both theologies have flaws but the answer is Yes, he did...in fact, his atonement for the non-elect is what will condemn them. Scripture says that those who REJECT Jesus will be condemned. Jn 3:36, Jn 3:18. You can't reject something that was never offered to you in the first place. That's why Jesus says this in Jn 15:22,

"If I had not come and spoken to them they would not be guilty of sin, now, however, they are without excuse."

Now we know that EVERYONE is guilty of sin. But Jesus's meaning here is that no one can be condemned if God does not first offer them a way out of sin as God knew. Rom.11:32). Jesus's atonement did just that. But it can only be received by faith.So those who do not believe in Jesus will be condemned. That is one of the many reasons that limited atonement is FALSE. That is why everyone in the world will be judged by whether they accept or REJECT Christ's atonement.

That's also why Acts 17:30 says this: "In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands ALL people everywhere to repent. For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead.”

Now that Christ has made atonement for the sins of everyone, for the whole world, then ALL the people who reject it will be condemned. It's precisely rejection of the cross that condemns people which is why NO one could be condemned OR saved before Jesus came. HE is the alpha and the omega by whom people will be saved or condemned.
 
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