For Arminians: Did Christ Die For Those Whom God Knew Would Never Believe?

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TomFL

Guest
You can ask a thousand times; if he takes away the sins of fear, abomination, murder, whoremongering, sorcery, idolatry, lies; he also takes away the sin of unbelief.

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
In his view sins of the unconditionally selected are justified before they are even committed before one is even born
 
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TomFL

Guest
Welcome to CARM. I'm not an Armenian, but I'm well beyond them in relation to Calvinism, so perhaps I'm a legitimate target for your question, too.

I would argue that the question is based on a flawed premise. In verse 39-40, I believe the hardening was temporary and for a purpose. Some refer to it as "judicial hardening" that was later removed (see Acts 2:37). Christ died for all mankind (John 3:16; Titus 2:11) and in fact, Jesus said that when He was lifted up (on the cross) He would draw all men unto Him. Everyone who hears the gospel hears that call. Free will allows us to reject the call out of selfishness or pride or fear or whatever, but all may answer, even the Jews in the context you brought up.

In Truth and Love.
Indeed

Romans 11:25 (KJV)
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
 

Beloved Daughter

Super Member
I have read through all your comments, and they are all based on the faulty assumption that sins atoned for must be remitted unconditionally, which is not biblical. The Bible teaches, firstly, that the Atonement itself is universal. It covers all men’s sins:

John 1:29 “The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.”

1 John 2:2 “And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.”

Romans 5:18 “Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.”

2 Corinthians 5:14-15 “For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.”

1 Timothy 2:3-6 “For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.”

Hebrews 2:9 “But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.”

2 Peter 3:9 “The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”

So there is no question that the Bible teaches the universality of the Atonement. The benefits received from it, however, are dependent on faith:

John 3:14-18 “And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

And the following verses suggest that it is possible for someone for whom Christ died, whose sins were atoned for, not to be saved:

Romans 14:15 But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.

1 Corinthians 8:11 “And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?”

2 Peter 2:1 “But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.”

Just a few thoughts. If you use the Bible improperly, the conclusion will be faulty. Spend a few minutes and go to Blue Letter Bible. John 3:16 is a good place to start. The word "world" in Greek is kosmos which has many definitions.


There is a context in John 3:16. Can you find it and show us what you mean?

Let's move onto the word 'all'.

2 Timothy 2:3-6

The Greek word 'all' is 'pas'

BLB
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]
  1. individually
    1. each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything
  2. collectively
    1. some of all types

You say one thing, but you have to ignore other scripture to come to the conclusions you have.

How about the words of Jesus?


Matthew 20:28
English Standard Version

28 even as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.

Now, you tell me, why did Jesus use the word 'many' instead of 'all'?

For every verse you post, I can find another POV in the Bible.

Jesus also said that only those who are drawn by the Father will come.

John 6:37-39 King James Version (KJV)

37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I /should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.



John 6:44
King James Version (KJV)

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.



God speed.

 

Beloved Daughter

Super Member
I'm not Arminians or Calvinist since both theologies have flaws but the answer is Yes, he did...in fact, his atonement for the non-elect is what will condemn them. Scripture says that those who REJECT Jesus will be condemned. Jn 3:36, Jn 3:18. You can't reject something that was never offered to you in the first place. That's why Jesus says this in Jn 15:22,

Paul says you are wrong.

Ephesians 1:3-11 King James Version (KJV)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

"If I had not come and spoken to them they would not be guilty of sin, now, however, they are without excuse."

Everyone knows there is a God. So they don't have any excuse, yet you claim that every person has been given the good news.


Now we know that EVERYONE is guilty of sin. But Jesus's meaning here is that no one can be condemned if God does not first offer them a way out of sin as God knew. Rom.11:32). Jesus's atonement did just that. But it can only be received by faith.So those who do not believe in Jesus will be condemned. That is one of the many reasons that limited atonement is FALSE. That is why everyone in the world will be judged by whether they accept or REJECT Christ's atonement. [/QUOTE]

The Bible never says that Jesus died for every person Jesus said this:

Matthew 20:28
English Standard Version
28 even as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”

That's also why Acts 17:30 says this: "In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands ALL people everywhere to repent. For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead.”

I can quote Acts too.

Acts 13:48
English Standard Version
48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.


Now that Christ has made atonement for the sins of everyone, for the whole world, then ALL the people who reject it will be condemned. It's precisely rejection of the cross that condemns people which is why NO one could be condemned OR saved before Jesus came. HE is the alpha and the omega by whom people will be saved or condemned.

Wrong again. The Bible does not say that Christ made atonement for everyone.


Acts 13:48 King James Version (KJV)

48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
 
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TomFL

Guest
Just a few thoughts. If you use the Bible improperly, the conclusion will be faulty. Spend a few minutes and go to Blue Letter Bible. John 3:16 is a good place to start. The word "world" in Greek is kosmos which has many definitions.


There is a context in John 3:16. Can you find it and show us what you mean?

Let's move onto the word 'all'.

2 Timothy 2:3-6

The Greek word 'all' is 'pas'

BLB
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]
  1. individually
    1. each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything
  2. collectively
    1. some of all types
Your claim has multiple problems

In passages where wee read of phrases like all men . The noun men in modidied by all

when you try to make it mean some of all kinds of men

Men is no longer modified by all but somre

That is twisting the text

2 You cannot arbitrarily appeal to a meaning without a consideration of the text

3 You mention John 3:16 where world in context refers to all mankind

5. the world as mankind (Sib. Or. 1, 189)—a. gener. οὐαί τῷ κ. ἀπὸ τῶν σκανδάλων woe to mankind because of vexations Mt 18:7; τὸ φῶς τοῦ κ. the light for mankind 5:14; cf. J 8:12; 9:5. ὁ σωτὴρ τοῦ κ. 4:42; 1J 4:14 (this designation is found in the inscrs., esp. oft. of Hadrian [WWeber, Untersuchungen z. Geschichte des Kaisers Hadrianus ’07, 225; 226; 229]).—J 1:29; 3:17b; 17:6.

William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature : A Translation and Adaption of the Fourth Revised and Augmented Edition of Walter Bauer’s Griechisch-Deutsches Worterbuch Zu Den Schrift En Des Neuen Testaments Und Der Ubrigen Urchristlichen Literatur (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1979), 446.

b. of all mankind, but especially of believers, as the object of God’s love J 3:16, 17c; 6:33, 51; 12:47.

William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature : A Translation and Adaption of the Fourth Revised and Augmented Edition of Walter Bauer’s Griechisch-Deutsches Worterbuch Zu Den Schrift En Des Neuen Testaments Und Der Ubrigen Urchristlichen Literatur (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1979), 446.
 
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TomFL

Guest
If salvation is dependent upon belief, then sin of belief wasn't taken away.
You already stated that

which is why I stated

That's why I note atonement is provisional

It does not benefit unless appropriated by faith
 

Kade Rystalmane

Well-known member
So Christ didn't die for unbelief in Him ? Right
I would argue that He did. There are many, many who do not believe in Jesus at some point in their lives yet learn of Him, believe in Him, and turn to Him for salvation through obedient faith. The lack of belief can be forgiven just as any other sin can. Even an atheist who works hard in his unbelief and later turns to God can be forgiven of that unbelief. A man like Antony G.N. Flew who started off as a hardcore atheist in his debate with Dr. Thomas B. Warren, who said that anyone who takes the weaker agnostic view is weak or a coward, could turn later in his life to belief and through that belief be saved. I do not know where Flew ended his life, but he did not die an atheist or even an agnostic. And he ended being an atheist when he was pretty old.
 
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TomFL

Guest
I would argue that He did. There are many, many who do not believe in Jesus at some point in their lives yet learn of Him, believe in Him, and turn to Him for salvation through obedient faith. The lack of belief can be forgiven just as any other sin can. Even an atheist who works hard in his unbelief and later turns to God can be forgiven of that unbelief. A man like Antony G.N. Flew who started off as a hardcore atheist in his debate with Dr. Thomas B. Warren, who said that anyone who takes the weaker agnostic view is weak or a coward, could turn later in his life to belief and through that belief be saved. I do not know where Flew ended his life, but he did not die an atheist or even an agnostic. And he ended being an atheist when he was pretty old.
Indeed as unbelief previous to faith was noted
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
kr

I would argue that He did. There are many, many who do not believe in Jesus at some point in their lives yet learn of Him, believe in Him, and turn to Him for salvation through obedient faith. The lack of belief can be forgiven just as any other sin can.

You are right here The sin of unbelief , Christ did die for, for His people chosen in Him before the foundation Eph 1:4. Paul is an example 1 Tim 1:13-15

13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

Paul was saved out of his unbelief, God in Christ had Mercy on him in unbelief. This is because Christ died for it, Pauls unbelief and the rest of his sins, and all of the elects sins, Christ died for, so they as a matter of justice, obtain mercy Rom 11:31-32

31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

This Mercy on them is Just because Christ for them has already died the penalty for it, along with the rest of their sins.

Frankly speaking, God would be unjust to condemn to hell any sinner Christ died for. And He wont !
 

Kade Rystalmane

Well-known member
You are right here The sin of unbelief , Christ did die for, for His people chosen in Him before the foundation Eph 1:4. Paul is an example 1 Tim 1:13-15

13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

Paul was saved out of his unbelief, God in Christ had Mercy on him in unbelief. This is because Christ died for it, Pauls unbelief and the rest of his sins, and all of the elects sins, Christ died for, so they as a matter of justice, obtain mercy Rom 11:31-32

31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

This Mercy on them is Just because Christ for them has already died the penalty for it, along with the rest of their sins.

Frankly speaking, God would be unjust to condemn to hell any sinner Christ died for. And He wont !
I am glad we agree to the extent we agree here, that Jesus did die for the sin of unbelief.

I disagree with the Calvinistic conclusions you draw, but finding common ground is important and I am glad for what we have found here.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
I am glad we agree to the extent we agree here, that Jesus did die for the sin of unbelief.

I disagree with the Calvinistic conclusions you draw, but finding common ground is important and I am glad for what we have found here.
Okay, but its unfortunate you didnt agree with it all, may God be pleased to further enlighten you.
 
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TomFL

Guest
kr



You are right here The sin of unbelief , Christ did die for, for His people chosen in Him before the foundation Eph 1:4. Paul is an example 1 Tim 1:13-15

13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

Paul was saved out of his unbelief, God in Christ had Mercy on him in unbelief. This is because Christ died for it, Pauls unbelief and the rest of his sins, and all of the elects sins, Christ died for, so they as a matter of justice, obtain mercy Rom 11:31-32

31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

This Mercy on them is Just because Christ for them has already died the penalty for it, along with the rest of their sins.

Frankly speaking, God would be unjust to condemn to hell any sinner Christ died for. And He wont !
So John was wrong ?

John 3:36 (KJV)
36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Paul as well

Ephesians 2:12 (KJV)
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

Ephesians 2:3-8 (KJV)
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
So John was wrong ?

John 3:36 (KJV)
36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Paul as well

Ephesians 2:12 (KJV)
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

Ephesians 2:3-8 (KJV)
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Spamming scripture again.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
I have read through all your comments, and they are all based on the faulty assumption that sins atoned for must be remitted unconditionally, which is not biblical. The Bible teaches, firstly, that the Atonement itself is universal. It covers all men’s sins:

Hello harfad... I see that you are new here, so welcome to the group.
I don't know the extend of your understanding of theology, but just to be clear, this forum is for discussion of two particular theologies, one (Calvinism) which teaches that the atonement is limited to God's elect, and one (Arminianism) which teaches that the atonement is universal.

Perhaps you're not familiar with Calvinism, as you seem to be assuming that it is obvious and undeniable that the atonement is universal. I am sorry, but it is not. You are certainly free to believe that the atonement is universal, but to simply state uncategorically that the atonement is universal is borderline insulting.

First of all, if you really want to understand the atonement, I would recommend to you two books, "The Death of Death in the Death of Christ" by John Owen, and "Redemption Accomplished and Applied" by John Murray. They will explain the atonement in a way that you will likely disagree with, but at least it will give you something to think about.

I think it is significant to know that not only did the ECF's teach limited atonement, but when the Protestant Reformation occurred, and we finally looked to the Bible for doctrine rather than to the Catholic magisterium, "Limited atonement" is what the Bible teaches.

Christ came to save "his people" from their sins (Matt. 1:21).
Christ came to save "his sheep" (John 10:15).

Now, most of us here who are Calvinists (or "Reformed") have heard the same proof-texts you have offered, many many times. We don't believe they mean what you assume they mean. I'll go over them so that you can understand why we disagree.

John 1:29 “The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.”

1 John 2:2 “And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.”

The term "world" here is from the Greek, "kosmos" (from which we get "cosmology"). It NEVER means, "every single individual", as you seem to be assuming the meaning here. It has a number of different meanings, depending on the context. Often if means that Christ' salvation extends beyond just the scope of the Jews, and extends into the Gentiles as well. It describes more of "where" God's salvation lay, rather than "who" is saved. Both Jews and Gentiles (ie. not just Jews) will experience God's salvation, but not "all" Jews or "all" Gentiles.

Romans 5:18 “Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.”

A couple of points to make here...

First of all, the CONTEXT of Rom. 5 is those who have been justified, and been given the Holy Spirit (Rom. 5:1-5). So that is the context, or the limit, of the meaning of "all men" in this verse.

As well, we disagree with your assumption that "all men" means "all individuals". That is simply not how they thought in ancient times. They didn't think it terms of individuals, but in terms of groups or classes of men ("rich or poor", "bond or free", "Jew or Gentile", etc.). So by "all men" it simply means that there will be people saved from ALL classes of men (cf. Rev. 5:9).

2 Corinthians 5:14-15 “For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.”

Again, you are ignoring the context here... Go back to 2 Cor. 5:1, and look at all the occurrences of "we" and "us", and look to the CONTEXT of what group is being defined. I It is the group which has been justified by God (cf. 2 Cor. 5:5). This is not a "universal" passage.

1 Timothy 2:3-6 “For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.”

Yes, and by "all men" is not meant "all individuals" (something it doesn't say), but "all CLASSES" of men. Look at 1 Tim. 2:1-2 (the CONTEXT). It refers to KINDS of men ("kings", "those in authority", etc.), not "individuals".

Hebrews 2:9 “But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.”

It is significant to note that the word "man" was added to the text, it is not part of the Greek. The Greek object is implied, "God should taste death for each." The insertion of "every man" errantly suggests individuality, which is simply not in the text. Further, if you continue reading to the next verse, you see that the author is referring to "bringing many SONS to glory", so he is only referring to adopted sons of God (Rom. 8:15, Gal. 4:5, Eph. 1:5), not "everyone" in a universal sense.

2 Peter 3:9 “The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”

I'm sorry to sound repetitive, but once again you are ignoring the context:

2Pet. 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Again, this isn't universal, but is speaking specifically of the group referred to as "beloved" (v.8), and "us-ward" (v.9), which is the elect (1 Pet. 1:1-2, via. 2 Pet. 3:1). This group is CONTRASTED with the mockers and scoffers which were mentioned at the beginning of the chapter.

So there is no question that the Bible teaches the universality of the Atonement.

Yes, actually, there IS a question.
Christians believed the Bible taught limited atonement until the Arminians came with their false teachings.

The benefits received from it, however, are dependent on faith:

John 3:14-18 “And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Sorry, but it's not "whosoever".
It's "whosoever BELIEVETH".
These passages exclude unbelievers, so it is most certainly NOT "universal".

Now you may wish to respond by claiming that everyone has the "ability" to believe, but that position simply isn't Biblical. We can discuss it if you want, but....

And the following verses suggest that it is possible for someone for whom Christ died, whose sins were atoned for, not to be saved:

Romans 14:15 But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.

I would disagree that it "suggests" anything of the sort.

1 Corinthians 8:11 “And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?”

Rhetorical question, the answer is "no".

2 Peter 2:1 “But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.”

Sorry, but that's not about the atonement.
No mention of "Jesus", or "Christ", or "atonement", or "cross", or "blood".

The term "Lord" almost universally applied to Jesus (and ALWAYS used by Peter, IIRC), is "kurios" ("Lord"). But the term rendered "Lord" here in your translation is "despotes" ("Master"):

"even denying the Master who bought them," (ESV)
"even to the point of denying the Master who bought them." (NET)
"even denying the Master who bought them," (NASB)
"even denying the Master who bought them," (HCSB)
"They will even deny the Master who bought them" (NRSV)

Don't get me wrong.... You are perfectly free to believe that the atonement is universal, just as we are free to believe that the atonement is limited to the elect. We don't consider it a salvation issue.

But the issue is not as clear as you seem to want to believe.

Again, welcome to the forum!
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Scripture says that those who REJECT Jesus will be condemned. Jn 3:36, Jn 3:18. You can't reject something that was never offered to you in the first place.

Sorry, but neither verse mentions anything about "rejecting" Jesus.

John 3:18 talks about someone who "does not believe".
That is the LACK of an action.
You change that to "rejecting", which is a POSITIVE action.

Now we know that EVERYONE is guilty of sin. But Jesus's meaning here is that no one can be condemned if God does not first offer them a way out of sin as God knew. Rom.11:32).

Wrong again.
They are not condemned BECAUSE they allegedly "reject the atonement".
They were condemned ALREADY (prior to) Jesus coming.
They were condemned BECAUSE of their sins.

John 3:18 Those who believe in him are not condemned; but those who do not believe are condemned already, because they have not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

And again, you keep destroying the gospel by falsely claiming it is an "offer", which the Bible NEVER claims it to be.

Jesus's atonement did just that. But it can only be received by faith.So those who do not believe in Jesus will be condemned.

No, John 3:18 says they were condemned ALREADY.

That is one of the many reasons that limited atonement is FALSE. That is why everyone in the world will be judged by whether they accept or REJECT Christ's atonement.

Wrong again.

The elect will be judged by Christ's righteousness.
The reprobate will be judged by their own sins.

Now that Christ has made atonement for the sins of everyone, for the whole world,

A false and unBiblical claim.

then ALL the people who reject it will be condemned.

No, they were "condemned ALREADY" (John 3:18) because of their SINS.

It's precisely rejection of the cross that condemns people

No, it is their SINS which condemns people.

which is why NO one could be condemned OR saved before Jesus came.

Then you reject John 3:18, which says they were "condemned ALREADY" (because of their sins).
 
Sorry, but neither verse mentions anything about "rejecting" Jesus.

John 3:18 talks about someone who "does not believe".
That is the LACK of an action.
You change that to "rejecting", which is a POSITIVE action.



Wrong again.
They are not condemned BECAUSE they allegedly "reject the atonement".
They were condemned ALREADY (prior to) Jesus coming.
They were condemned BECAUSE of their sins.

John 3:18 Those who believe in him are not condemned; but those who do not believe are condemned already, because they have not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

And again, you keep destroying the gospel by falsely claiming it is an "offer", which the Bible NEVER claims it to be.



No, John 3:18 says they were condemned ALREADY.



Wrong again.

The elect will be judged by Christ's righteousness.
The reprobate will be judged by their own sins.



A false and unBiblical claim.



No, they were "condemned ALREADY" (John 3:18) because of their SINS.



No, it is their SINS which condemns people.



Then you reject John 3:18, which says they were "condemned ALREADY" (because of their sins).
 
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