For Arminians: Did Christ Die For Those Whom God Knew Would Never Believe?

Sorry, but neither verse mentions anything about "rejecting" Jesus.
That's implied, Theo, but if you need it spelled out, other verses DO talking about REJECTING Jesus such as Jn 3:36 which you even copied. And no, rejeting Christ's atonement is a DELIBERATE action just like TURNING AWAY from the gospel is. EDITED

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.John 3:18 talks about someone who "does not believe".
That is the LACK of an action.
You change that to "rejecting", which is a POSITIVE action.



Wrong again.
They are not condemned BECAUSE they allegedly "reject the atonement".
They were condemned ALREADY (prior to) Jesus coming.
They were condemned BECAUSE of their sins.

So again why did Jesus tell his disciples to go and preach the gospel to people for whom he KNEW he was not going to make atonement? Is Jesus just a deceiver? NO, he's NOT. So Jesus had to preach ANOTHER gospel to those people that has NOTHING to do with saving their souls. So what WAS that DIFFERENT gospel, Theo?
John 3:18 Those who believe in him are not condemned; but those who do not believe are condemned already, because they have not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

They were condemned ALREADY, Theo because God had already determined that they would REJECT the gospel. That's what the word "already means." But those people DON'T KNOW that they were not chosen so they can't say they were NOT chosen.

And again, you keep destroying the gospel by falsely claiming it is an "offer", which the Bible NEVER claims it to be.



No, John 3:18 says they were condemned ALREADY.



Wrong again.

The elect will be judged by Christ's righteousness.
The reprobate will be judged by their own sins.



A false and unBiblical claim.



No, they were "condemned ALREADY" (John 3:18) because of their SINS.

Wrong. Nobody was sent to hell or heaven before Jesus came, Theo. If they were, then the cross has NO affect on people. You are rendering the cross meaningless if you claim that God sends people to heaven or hell without the atonement. So it's you who is wrong again.
No, it is their SINS which condemns people.

Again if people's sins are what condemns them, Theo, then WE Christians could not be saved either. ;) But It's whether we accept or reject the ATONEMENT that saves us or condemns us. So your unbiblical beliefs are AGAIN throwing out the cross.

The true gospel is SO EASY that I'm SHOCKED at how difficult it is for Calvinists to understand! Jesus states the gospel BEAUTIFULLY in Jn 3:16 and it is all about BELIEF or LACK of belief in Jesus's atoenement that saves or condemns them. It's SO SIMPLE as written that you don't have to redefine a WORD in it!

"For God so loved the WORLD (everyone) that he gave his Only Son so that whosoever shall BELIEVE in Him (GOD"S ELECT) shall not perish but have eternal life."

It's easy enough for a CHILD to understand. It's FAITH in the atonement that saves us, Theo. People have to BELIEVE that Jesus died for them to be saved and God would NEVER ASK ANYONE to believe in something that did NOT happen for them.

But Jesus said that he has revelaed himself only to little children. (Mt. 11:25, Mt. 18;3) So His words HAVE to be easy enough for a child to understand. So Calvinists have to come to Jesus like a CHILD so they can believe the simple gospel and won't have to redefine a WORD to do it.
Then you reject John 3:18, which says they were "condemned ALREADY" (because of their sins).
It's the same with Judas who was ALREADY DOOMED to destruction. But that could NOT HAPPEND UNTIL JUDAS BETRAYED Jesus. So the word "already" is God's foreknowledge and determination about what is GOING to happen.
 
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That's implied, Theo, but if you need it spelled out, other verses DO talking about REJECTING Jesus such as Jn 3:36 which you even copied. And no, rejeting Christ's atonement is a DELIBERATE action just like TURNING AWAY from the gospel is. But according to you, unbelievers aren't doing anything wrong by rejecting the atonement but God disagrees with you as that verse says.



So again why did Jesus tell his disciples to go and preach the gospel to people for whom he KNEW he was not going to make atonement? Is Jesus just a deceiver? NO, he's NOT. So Jesus had to preach ANOTHER gospel to those people that has NOTHING to do with saving their souls. So what WAS that DIFFERENT gospel, Theo?




Wrong. Nobody was sent to hell or heaven before Jesus came, Theo. If they were, then the cross has NO affect on people. You are rendering the cross meaningless if you claim that God sends people to heaven or hell without the atonement. So it's you who is wrong again.


Again if people's sins are what condemns them, Theo, then WE Christians could not be saved either. ;) But It's whether we accept or reject the ATONEMENT that saves us or condemns us. So your unbiblical beliefs are AGAIN throwing out the cross.

The true gospel is SO EASY that I'm SHOCKED at how difficult it is for Calvinists to understand! Jesus states the gospel BEAUTIFULLY in Jn 3:16 and it is all about BELIEF or LACK of belief in Jesus's atoenement that saves or condemns them. It's SO SIMPLE as written that you don't have to redefine a WORD in it!

"For God so loved the WORLD (everyone) that he gave his Only Son so that whosoever shall BELIEVE in Him (GOD"S ELECT) shall not perish but have eternal life."

It's easy enough for a CHILD to understand. It's FAITH in the atonement that saves us, Theo. People have to BELIEVE that Jesus died for them to be saved and God would NEVER ASK ANYONE to believe in something that did NOT happen for them.

But Jesus said that he has revelaed himself only to little children. (Mt. 11:25, Mt. 18;3) So His words HAVE to be easy enough for a child to understand. So Calvinists have to come to Jesus like a CHILD so they can believe the simple gospel and won't have to redefine a WORD to do it.
I didn't think it was possible for people to butcher one of the EASIEST teachings or even SENTENCES in the Bible than Jn 3:16!

It takes MUCH EFFORT to turn that verse into anything BUT what it says. The word "WORLD" does NOT mean ONLY the elect, the "Whosoever shall BELIEVE in him" is talking about ONLY the elect. So God's love for the world does NOT SAVE the world. BELIEF in the atonement is what saves people.

Again, salvation is by FAITH ALONE, in CHRIST ALONE, by SCRIPTURE ALONE. You have to BELIEVE that Jesus died for you to be saved which most of the world will NOT.

So again God's love for the world does NOT SAVE the world. People have to have FAITH to be saved. END OF STORY. But Calvinists don't get it, showing that they really do not believe that we are saved by faith alone even though they CLAIM to believe it.


So it's really not possible to know what Calvinists believe since they contradict themselves and Scripture constantly. So again, they're showing how futile it is to preach the SIMPLE gospel to them. So they cannot preach the SIMPLE gospel to anyone else either. They have to believe and preach ANOTHER gospel other than God's love for the world bringing them very close to condemnation themselves as Gal. 1:8-9 says.
 
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Theo1689

Well-known member
That's implied, Theo,

Yeah, right...
"That's implied" is the usual excuse heretics use when they can't prove their false teachings from Scripture. What you REALLY mean is, "it's ASSUMED". "Assumed" and "implied" are not the same thing.

but if you need it spelled out, other verses DO talking about REJECTING Jesus such as Jn 3:36 which you even copied.

No, it doesn't:

John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever disobeys the Son will not see life, but must endure God’s wrath.

Nothing here about "rejecting Jesus".
All it says is "disobeys the Son".
And you don't have to know the Son to disobey the Son's commands.
You are simply making unwarranted ASSUMPTIONS.

And no, rejeting Christ's atonement is a DELIBERATE action just like TURNING AWAY from the gospel is.

<sigh>
But people are NOT condemned for "rejecting Christ's atonement".
They are condemned for their SINS.

They were condemned ALREADY (you keep IGNORING the word, "already") even BEFORE Christ's atonement:

John 3:18 Those who believe in him are not condemned; but those who do not believe are condemned already, because they have not believed in the name of the only Son of God.


The Bible NEVER teaches "rejecting the atonement".
You will NEVER find that phrase in Scripture.
That's an INVENTION on your part.

But according to you, unbelievers aren't doing anything wrong by rejecting the atonement but God disagrees with you as that verse says.

Wow..
I have NEVER said anything of the sort.
Please QUOTE where I have ever allegedly uttered such nonsense.

Apparently you don't understand my posts any better than you understand Scripture.

So again why did Jesus tell his disciples to go and preach the gospel to people for whom he KNEW he was not going to make atonement?

Asked and answered:

1) Because we don't know who the elect are.
2) Because God is glorified even when people don't accept the gospel.
3) Because Christ is our Lord, and we obey Him.
4) Because we love God and His gospel, and want to proclaim it to everyone, to His glory!

Amen!

Is Jesus just a deceiver? NO, he's NOT.

I never claimed He was.
That is your lack of understanding, not mine.

So Jesus had to preach ANOTHER gospel to those people that has NOTHING to do with saving their souls.

I reject your false claim.

So what WAS that DIFFERENT gospel, Theo?

I have no clue what you're talking about.
You're talking nonsense.

Wrong. Nobody was sent to hell or heaven before Jesus came, Theo. If they were, then the cross has NO affect on people.

Sorry, I reject your false teachings.

You are rendering the cross meaningless if you claim that God sends people to heaven or hell without the atonement.

No, I'm doing no such thing.
You're talking nonsense.

So it's you who is wrong again.

<Chuckle>
Paul does not suffer a woman to teach.
Neither do I.

You neither understand the Scriptures, nor do you understand my posts.

Again if people's sins are what condemns them, Theo, then WE Christians could not be saved either.

Sorry, that simply doesn't follow.
And now it is YOU who is denying the atonement.
No wonder Paul never suffered a woman to teach.

;) But It's whether we accept or reject the ATONEMENT that saves us or condemns us.

Completely unBiblical.

So your unbiblical beliefs are AGAIN throwing out the cross.

No, it is YOUR unbiblical beliefs that are "throwing out the cross".

The true gospel is SO EASY

Yes, it is!

that I'm SHOCKED at how difficult it is for Calvinists to understand!

Yes, I'm SHOCKED at how difficult it is for YOU to understand!

Jesus states the gospel BEAUTIFULLY in Jn 3:16 and it is all about BELIEF or LACK of belief in Jesus's atoenement that saves or condemns them.

Sorry, that's NOT what John 3:16 says.
Man does not have the ability to "choose" to believe or not.
It is GOD who gives His elect people the faith to believe (Eph. 2:8-9, Phil. 1:29, Rom.12:3, 2 Pet. 1:1, 1 Cor. 4:7, etc. etc.)

Those whom God has not given faith CANNOT believe.

It's SO SIMPLE as written that you don't have to redefine a WORD in it!

So why DO YOU "redefine" all of it?!

"For God so loved the WORLD (everyone) that he gave his Only Son so that whosoever shall BELIEVE in Him (GOD"S ELECT) shall not perish but have eternal life."

Why do you keep ADDING to God's word?!
John 3:16 does NOT say "everyone".

Therefore, you have to CHANGE God's word to make it fit your false theology.

No wonder Paul never suffered a woman to teach.

It's easy enough for a CHILD to understand. It's FAITH in the atonement that saves us, Theo. People have to BELIEVE that Jesus died for them to be saved

And they can't believe if God doesn't give them faith.

and God would NEVER ASK ANYONE to believe in something that did NOT happen for them.

Your claim is completely UNBIBLICAL.

But Jesus said that he has revelaed himself only to little children. (Mt. 11:25, Mt. 18;3) So His words HAVE to be easy enough for a child to understand.

Yet YOU don't understand it.
Why is that, I wonder?

So Calvinists have to come to Jesus like a CHILD so they can believe the simple gospel and won't have to redefine a WORD to do it.

YOU are the only one CHANGING Scripture.
Not me.

Because you preach a false gospel.
And I proclaim the true gospel of Christ.

Repent!
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
I didn't think it was possible for people to butcher one of the EASIEST teachings or even SENTENCES in the Bible than Jn 3:16!

Well, YOU "butchered" it, so obviously it IS possible.
Sadly.

It takes MUCH EFFORT to turn that verse into anything BUT what it says.

You'd know.
YOU are the one who butchered it.

The word "WORLD" does NOT mean ONLY the elect,

I never claimed it did.
But then again, I don't recognize you as an expert in Koine Greek.

the "Whosoever shall BELIEVE in him" is talking about ONLY the elect.

Very good!
You finally got something right!

So God's love for the world does NOT SAVE the world. BELIEF in the atonement is what saves people.

Yes, and God saves people by GIVING them faith (Eph. 2:8-9, Phil. 1:29, Rom. 12:3, 2 Pet. 1:1, 1 Cor. 4:7, etc. etc.)

The non-elect are condemned for their SINS:

It's so simple, I don't understand why you can't see it!

Again, salvation is by FAITH ALONE, in CHRIST ALONE, by SCRIPTURE ALONE.

Amen, amen, and AMEN!

You have to BELIEVE that Jesus died for you to be saved which most of the world will NOT.

Yes, and God GIVES His elect the faith to believe.

So again God's love for the world does NOT SAVE the world.

Why do you keep arguing against straw-men?
All you're doing is wasting everyone's time.

People have to have FAITH to be saved. END OF STORY. But Calvinists don't get it,

Um, we are saying the EXACT SAME THING as you!
So how can you say "Calvinists don't get it"?
If we don't get it, then YOU don't get it, either!

showing that they really do not believe that we are saved by faith alone even though they CLAIM to believe it.

You are arguing a straw-man that we don't believe.
Why do you insist on MISREPRESENTING us?

Don't you know that bearing false witness is a sin?
Maybe that's why Paul did not suffer a woman to teach...

So it's really not possible to know what Calvinists believe since they contradict themselves and Scripture constantly.

You haven't demonstrated ANY true "contradictions" by Calvinists.
Only worthless straw-men.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Sorry, but I preach the true gospel which is that we are saved by FAITH ALONE, IN CHRIST ALONE by SCRIPTURE ALONE. I'm sorry you don't believe that, Theo,

Um, I DO believe that.
ALL Calvinists believe that.

I'm sorry that YOU refuse to believe that bearing false witness is a sin.

but that shows you disagree with Jesus that people have to BELIEVE in him to be saved.

I don't "disagree" with Jesus at all.
Why do you feel the need to constantly MISREPRESENT me?!

So you don't even believe Jesus's simple words making you condemned. Good-bye, Theo.

Bearing false witness is a sin.
You need to believe that.
 
T

TomFL

Guest
Yes, and God saves people by GIVING them faith (Eph. 2:8-9, Phil. 1:29, Rom. 12:3, 2 Pet. 1:1, 1 Cor. 4:7, etc. etc.)
Are you still proof texting

Eph 2:8.9 says nothing about giving faith

Rom 12:3 does not concern saving faith

1Cor 4:7 does not mention faith

2Pe 1:1 does not say how obtained

Lastly Phil 1:29 says granted faith

Faith is granted through the presentation of the gospel

not infused or transmitted
 

Kade Rystalmane

Well-known member
Okay, but its unfortunate you didnt agree with it all, may God be pleased to further enlighten you.
Agreed. It is unfortunate. May God be pleased to enlighten us all.

So let's talk more about those parts where we disagree.
You are right here The sin of unbelief , Christ did die for, for His people chosen in Him before the foundation Eph 1:4.
This is often a prooftext used by Calvinists to make the claim that individuals were chosen in Christ before the universe was created. However, I do not believe the context bears that out. Paul writes of the saints (vs 1) and uses "us" and "we" throughout the context referring to the Christians (those that are in Christ). Yet when we get to verse 14, "us" and "we" and "saints" are written of as a purchased "possession". Then in verses 22 and 23 Paul writes of the church, the body. Possession, church, and body are all singular entities encapsulating the plural. Thus, when we speak of Christ blessing "us", choosing "us", predestinating "us" and so forth, we must understand it in terms of the possession/church/body. That is, when we become part of the body, we become part of the "us" who are blessed, chosen, predestined.

That does not demand the conclusion that we individually were chosen by God to be blessed in Christ. It allows for the concept of free will and a just God who is not a respecter of persons, not prejudiced, not arbitrary which is what God would be, by definition, if He chose individuals before time to be saved or lost.

In other words, God chose/predestined us/we/church/body/possession. He did not chose/predestine me or you individually. That is an assumption that is not inherent in the text and it creates contradictions (God is just/unjust, God is/is not a respecter of persons, God is/is not the author of confusion, etc.)
Paul is an example 1 Tim 1:13-15

13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

Paul was saved out of his unbelief, God in Christ had Mercy on him in unbelief. This is because Christ died for it, Pauls unbelief and the rest of his sins, and all of the elects sins, Christ died for, so they as a matter of justice, obtain mercy Rom 11:31-32

31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

This Mercy on them is Just because Christ for them has already died the penalty for it, along with the rest of their sins.

Frankly speaking, God would be unjust to condemn to hell any sinner Christ died for. And He wont !
We agree on everything but this last statement here. There is a component missing to the conclusion you have drawn, and that is the response God calls us to make to the giving of His Son. It has been shown already by Tim and others that Christ died for all and calls all. Yet God demands that we respond to that call. Our response is belief, repentance, confession, immersion, and walking in the light. If we did what God demanded as a response and THEN He condemned us to Gehenna for all eternity, He would be unjust.

This means that while Christ died for all, paid the debt for all, appropriating that payment has conditions set by God that must be met. That does not make God unjust. It makes Him just. 1 John 1:9 says - "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." If we do not confess our sins, He is not faithful and just to forgive our sins and cleanse us.

Again, assumptions have to be made that cause contradictions to spring up when scripture is viewed from the Calvinistic perspective.

In Truth and Love.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
kr

appropriating that payment has conditions set by God that must be met.

Thats works my friend, whenever you make a condition to get saved, that the sinner must do,, it defaults to a work/reward salvation. God rewards the sinner for something the sinner does. Ultimately you deny Salvation by Grace !
 

CharismaticLady

Well-known member
It appears unmistakably clear that God KNEW that many (Most) of Israel would never believe in Jesus as the Messiah. John makes a point of it many times in his gospel. The passage that stands out incredibly to me on this is in John 12.


"37 Even after Jesus had performed so many signs in their presence, they still would not believe in him. 38 This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet:

“Lord, who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?”[h]
39 For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere:

40 “He has blinded their eyes
and hardened their hearts,
so they can neither see with their eyes,
nor understand with their hearts,
nor turn—and I would heal them.” John 12:37-40

2 points of observation here:

1) God KNEW ahead of time that many among Israel would not believe in Jesus as Messiah and receive Him. He foretold it long ago through Isaiah.
2) John appears to indicate that God not only KNEW they would never believe, but that God hardened their hearts and blinded their eyes so that THEY COULD NOT believe.

It raises the question:

Did Christ die for the sins of those whom God KNEW would never believe? If so...WHY? WHY would God the Father impute the sins of those whom He KNEW would never believe in Christ to His Son and allow Him to suffer the penalty of His wrath for them full well knowing that it would be in vain?

It seems painfully clear to me here that Arminians have to concede that there is a limit to the Atonement in at least some degree. If not, then they have to explain why God the Father would let His Son die for some people's sins on the cross when He knew they would never believe.

I think this question gets right down to the core of whether Christ's atonement was general or specific.

I hate this stupid argument. What does it matter? The only question you need to answer is, am I one that Christ has taken away my sin. 1 John 3:5. The confirmation of that would be, do I still willfully sin, or not? If no, then I am one of the chosen. If yes, then the devil is my father.

I am going to start a post.
 
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AllOfGrace

Member
I hate this stupid argument. What does it matter? The only question you need to answer is, am I one that Christ has taken away my sin. 1 John 3:5. The confirmation of that would be, do I still willfully sin, or not? If no, then I am one of the chosen. If yes, then the devil is my father.

I am going to start a post.
I respectfully disagree sister. I don't consider it a stupid question. It gets right down to the question of what Jesus Accomplished by His Perfect Finished work on the cross...namely: Did Jesus' Atoning death on the cross only give people a CHANCE to be saved? Or did it actually effect the Eternal Salvation of every one of those whom God chose in Christ before time began? Put another way: Did Christ die for anyone specifically...or just everyone in general?

Or are BOTH aspects true? I'm not opposed to that idea. I think the entire plan of Salvation presents a Paradox in many ways. I'm throwing the question out there because I'm curious to see how other people understand the atonement...and perhaps I might gain a better understanding by doing so. It's an honest question IMO.

Regarding this part...
The only question you need to answer is, am I one that Christ has taken away my sin. 1 John 3:5.
That gets right at the question I am asking. Did Christ actually die for ALL of MY sins on the cross? MY sins...specifically...not just the entire world...but MY sins? Did He feel the wrath of God against every single one of my sins of my entire lifetime that God knew I would ever commit...past, present, and future on the cross and by doing so He actually removed my sentence of eternal Condemnation forever and then He drew me to Himself to believe BECAUSE He accomplished my eternal Salvation? Or was His atoning death non-specific in nature...like an all sufficient smart bomb that actually saves no one, but merely gives everyone a chance to be saved? ie. It is efficient only for those who believe.

Bottomline is, even Non Calvinists believe in Limited Atonement...ie. that Christ's atoning death on the cross only benefits those who will believe.

Anyhow, I'm open to hearing how other people understand it.


The confirmation of that would be, do I still willfully sin, or not? If no, then I am one of the chosen. If yes, then the devil is my father.
Uh oh. Is that Wesleyan Arminianism knocking on my door?
 

Kade Rystalmane

Well-known member
Thats works my friend, whenever you make a condition to get saved, that the sinner must do,, it defaults to a work/reward salvation. God rewards the sinner for something the sinner does. Ultimately you deny Salvation by Grace !
I have no issues with works being involved in salvation. I do not hold to the faith-only paradigm. While I don't believe the concept of works necessarily demands rewards, I do believe works are required to be saved. I do not deny salvation by grace.

Grace causes salvation. There is nothing human-centric that causes salvation.
Obedient faith is not the cause of salvation, but it is the conduit through which God sends His grace to the individual in order to save them. Obedient faith is what humans choose to do to be saved.

Works come in four different kinds in the scriptures:

  • Works of the Devil - 1 John 3:8 - these are either works the Devil does or his agents do. These works do not save as they are contrary to the will of God.
  • Works of the law (of Moses) - Romans - these works are works particular to Israel and were given by God for them to do to preserve them as the vehicle to fulfill the promise to Abraham to bless all the nations of the world by bringing Messiah into the world. These works do not save as the law of Moses cannot save.
  • Works of Self-Righteousness/Merit - Romans 10:3; Eph. 28-9 - these works are about reward, about trying to save ourselves. The person who rejects God's plan and tries to devise their own and then say to God, "God, I did this, you owe me salvation." Works of this kind are about an economic exchange of things allegedly of equal value.
  • Works of Faithful Obedience - James 2:24 - these works are about submission to God's will, about doing what God has given us to do in humility, knowing that when we do them, we are still considered "unprofitable servants" and that "we have done that which was our duty to do" (Luke 17:10). There is no intrinsic value in these works and they are not offered in exchange for salvation as if they did. Yet, God has declared that we must do them and that grace flows through them.
Most struggle to understand the nature of that last one. They struggle to separate out the concept of works and reward as if the two are inherently linked (they are not). Because they do not understand the position, they simply assert that it is not true and dismiss it rather than address it and attempt to show why it is wrong from scripture.

Any other position, most of which are a "faith only" position, creates a contradiction between Paul and James. This position does not. It recognizes that Paul is talking about works of the law of Moses and works of self-righteousness and James is talking about works of obedient faith. No conflict is generated and there is absolute harmony between all the scriptures without the need for invention and eisegesis.

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." Matthew 7:21

You can't even get into the church, the body of the saved (the kingdom) without doing the will of God, much less Heaven. That's an explicit statement and is ungetaroundable.

In Truth and Love.
 
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brightfame52

Well-known member
allofgrace

Did Christ die for the sins of those whom God KNEW would never believe? If so...WHY? WHY would God the Father impute the sins of those whom He KNEW would never believe in Christ to His Son and allow Him to suffer the penalty of His wrath for them full well knowing that it would be in vain?

Thats the issue, those who shall die in their sins, its because God didn't impute their sins to Christ, the Surety of His People. They die in their sins because their sins were unatoned for, its simple as that. And God cannot clear the Guilty!

So those folk who Christ didnt atone for their sins, god never gives them the Gift of Faith to believe in Christ, without such Gift non would believe in Christ. But since Christ did atone for the sins of the Elect. they are given the Gift of Faith to believe on Him that died for them Phil 1:29

29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;
 
T

TomFL

Guest
kr



Thats works my friend, whenever you make a condition to get saved, that the sinner must do,, it defaults to a work/reward salvation. God rewards the sinner for something the sinner does. Ultimately you deny Salvation by Grace !
Not if one believe scripture

Romans 4:1-5 (KJV)
1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Not if one believe scripture

Romans 4:1-5 (KJV)
1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
You the apostle of works salvation !
 

CharismaticLady

Well-known member
I respectfully disagree sister. I don't consider it a stupid question. It gets right down to the question of what Jesus Accomplished by His Perfect Finished work on the cross...namely: Did Jesus' Atoning death on the cross only give people a CHANCE to be saved? Or did it actually effect the Eternal Salvation of every one of those whom God chose in Christ before time began? Put another way: Did Christ die for anyone specifically...or just everyone in general?

Or are BOTH aspects true? I'm not opposed to that idea. I think the entire plan of Salvation presents a Paradox in many ways. I'm throwing the question out there because I'm curious to see how other people understand the atonement...and perhaps I might gain a better understanding by doing so. It's an honest question IMO.

Regarding this part...

That gets right at the question I am asking. Did Christ actually die for ALL of MY sins on the cross? MY sins...specifically...not just the entire world...but MY sins? Did He feel the wrath of God against every single one of my sins of my entire lifetime that God knew I would ever commit...past, present, and future on the cross and by doing so He actually removed my sentence of eternal Condemnation forever and then He drew me to Himself to believe BECAUSE He accomplished my eternal Salvation? Or was His atoning death non-specific in nature...like an all sufficient smart bomb that actually saves no one, but merely gives everyone a chance to be saved? ie. It is efficient only for those who believe.

Bottomline is, even Non Calvinists believe in Limited Atonement...ie. that Christ's atoning death on the cross only benefits those who will believe.

Anyhow, I'm open to hearing how other people understand it.



Uh oh. Is that Wesleyan Arminianism knocking on my door?

And how would you determine if the answer to whether or not Jesus chose you, or whether you chose Him is that you, yourself, are a Christian? If you are not, why does it matter to you. If you think you are, doesn't that make you pretty arrogant, especially if you still willfully sin, so aren't.
 
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AllOfGrace

Member
And how would you determine if the answer to whether of not Jesus chose you, or whether you chose Him is that you, yourself, are a Christian? If you are not, why does it matter to you.
Basically, it appears that you are talking about a changed life as an evidence that a person has been saved...and suggesting that indeed, a changed life is the visible fruit that one has been 'chosen'/saved. I'm ok with that. A changed heart and lifestyle...from being/living in rebellion against God, to praising Him and worshipping Him and walking with Him in obedience...to one degree or another...are indicators that a person has been saved. I think that is correct. The most important of those fruits is love. Obeying His commands too. Yeah.

I thought you were suggesting that believers don't sin anymore after they are saved.
 
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