For Arminians: Did Christ Die For Those Whom God Knew Would Never Believe?

T

TomFL

Guest
You the apostle of works salvation !
Not if you believe scripture

Romans 4:1-5 (KJV)
1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
 

CharismaticLady

Well-known member
Basically, it appears that you are talking about a changed life as an evidence that a person has been saved...and suggesting that indeed, a changed life is the visible fruit that one has been 'chosen'/saved. I'm ok with that. A changed heart and lifestyle...from being/living in rebellion against God, to praising Him and worshipping Him and walking with Him in obedience...to one degree or another...are indicators that a person has been saved. I think that is correct. The most important of those fruits is love. Obeying His commands too. Yeah.

I thought you were suggesting that believers don't sin anymore after they are saved.

Christians sin, but not WILLFULLY. Phil. 3:16.

That is one of the tests that you are a Christian, whether or not you think you were chosen, you keep the commandments of God, 1 John 3:21-24. You could just be lying to yourself and everyone else. See why this is stupid? If you are born again, your life shows it.

And being born again of God's seed is a supernatural event that changes your nature to that of desiring righteousness only.
 
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AllOfGrace

Member
Christians sin, but not WILLFULLY. Phil. 3:16.
I'd love to hear your definition of what WILFULL sinning is. I'll just say that for myself, those warning verses in Hebrews used to scare me until I studied out the book of Hebrews. I've seen that concept of 'Wilful" sin used by many people to promote many negative views that tend toward legalism. I'm not saying that about you though. That's why I'm asking for a definition.

The wilful sin talked about in Hebrews has a specific meaning in the context...a wilful, conscious public rejection of and repudiation of Jesus Christ. That's what the recipients of the letter to the Hebrews were being tempted to give in to...that is what they were being warned against doing.

1) They were being persecuted and killed by the Romans under Nero. Pliny the Elder talks about about how the Roman officials would capture Christians and give them a chance to renounce Christ to save their lives. If they wouldn't renounce Him after 3 tries...they were put to death.

2) On the other hand, Judaism was still protected by Roman law. A believer could escape persecution and death at the hand of the Romans by going back under the umbrella of Judaism again. But the leaders of Judaism were at war against Christianity. They had an entire force of Judaizers going around to infiltrate Christian churches and bring people in them under obedience to the law and subjection to Judaism. In order for any Jewish believer in Christ to be accepted back into Judaism...the Rabbis would require them to renounce Jesus as the Messiah and go back to relying on animal sacrifices, priestly mediation, and observance of the Law.

So...the wilful sin in Hebrews, and the reasons for all of the warnings are about Jewish Christians not giving into the temptaion to renounce Christ in order to escape persecution and death.

Once I understood that...in the context...the whole letter to the Hebrews made sense to me.
 

CharismaticLady

Well-known member
I'd love to hear your definition of what WILFULL sinning is. I'll just say that for myself, those warning verses in Hebrews used to scare me until I studied out the book of Hebrews. I've seen that concept of 'Wilful" sin used by many people to promote many negative views that tend toward legalism. I'm not saying that about you though. That's why I'm asking for a definition.

The wilful sin talked about in Hebrews has a specific meaning in the context...a wilful, conscious public rejection of and repudiation of Jesus Christ. That's what the recipients of the letter to the Hebrews were being tempted to give in to...that is what they were being warned against doing.

1) They were being persecuted and killed by the Romans under Nero. Pliny the Elder talks about about how the Roman officials would capture Christians and give them a chance to renounce Christ to save their lives. If they wouldn't renounce Him after 3 tries...they were put to death.

2) On the other hand, Judaism was still protected by Roman law. A believer could escape persecution and death at the hand of the Romans by going back under the umbrella of Judaism again. But the leaders of Judaism were at war against Christianity. They had an entire force of Judaizers going around to infiltrate Christian churches and bring people in them under obedience to the law and subjection to Judaism. In order for any Jewish believer in Christ to be accepted back into Judaism...the Rabbis would require them to renounce Jesus as the Messiah and go back to relying on animal sacrifices, priestly mediation, and observance of the Law.

So...the wilful sin in Hebrews, and the reasons for all of the warnings are about Jewish Christians not giving into the temptaion to renounce Christ in order to escape persecution and death.

Once I understood that...in the context...the whole letter to the Hebrews made sense to me.

Obviously it is KNOWING IT IS SIN, SINNING ON PURPOSE, CHOOSING TO SIN. It is certainly not limited to what you may think is "repudiation of Jesus Christ." After all, Jesus said, "If you love me, keep my commandments." Therefore, choosing to sin IS against Jesus, Himself. He has given us His Spirit, and if we willfully quench His Spirit, that is a rejection of Christ.
 
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AllOfGrace

Member
Obviously it is KNOWING IT IS SIN, SINNING ON PURPOSE, CHOOSING TO SIN. It is certainly not limited to what you may think is "repudiation of Jesus Christ." After all, Jesus said, "If you love me, keep my commandments." Therefore, choosing to sin IS against Jesus, Himself. He has give us His Spirit, and if we willfully quench His Spirit, that is a rejection of Christ.
According to your definition of willful sinning, and your view about what happens if a believer sins willfully...it looks like you are saying that any Christian who has sinned willfully after they were born again is not really saved...or is lost...or both.
 

CharismaticLady

Well-known member
According to your definition of willful sinning, and your view about what happens if a believer sins willfully...it looks like you are saying that any Christian who has sinned willfully after they were born again is not really saved...or is lost...or both.

It is most likely they were never born again in the first place I hope, because being filled with the Spirit is a supernatural event that changes you immediately. And the love you feel overwhelms you. You can know all about Jesus and think that entitles you to heaven, even though you spit in His face and trample His blood every time you willfully sin - sin that caused His death in the first place.
 

AllOfGrace

Member
It is most likely they were never born again in the first place I hope, because being filled with the Spirit is a supernatural event that changes you immediately. And the love you feel overwhelms you. You can know all about Jesus and think that entitles you to heaven, even though you spit in His face and trample His blood every time you willfully sin - sin that caused His death in the first place.
I’ve heard this ‘teaching’ before. I immediately thought to myself...it’s SDA teaching, Church of God, Church of Christ or Holiness Pentecostal. So I checked out your profile. Sure enough...you have a background in the SDA church and Church of Christ. I don’t mean that as an insult. I also was an SDA and have been to the other groups mentioned. I know where you got those ideas.

I won’t go into the long explanation as to why your understanding about willful sin and loss of salvation is problematic and sets those who believe that ‘accidental’ sins can be forgiven, but not ‘willful’ sins can’t inevitably causes people who believe it to become self deceived about themselves, judgmental of others and a host of many other bondages. I’ll just suggest to you that Jesus said all sins will be forgiven except the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit...and that the book of 1st John warns that those who claim sinlessness are deceived.

God bless you as you grow in Jesus.
 

CharismaticLady

Well-known member
I’ve heard this ‘teaching’ before. I immediately thought to myself...it’s SDA teaching, Church of God, Church of Christ or Holiness Pentecostal. So I checked out your profile. Sure enough...you have a background in the SDA church and Church of Christ. I don’t mean that as an insult. I also was an SDA and have been to the other groups mentioned. I know where you got those ideas.

I won’t go into the long explanation as to why your understanding about willful sin and loss of salvation is problematic and sets those who believe that ‘accidental’ sins can be forgiven, but not ‘willful’ sins can’t inevitably causes people who believe it to become self deceived about themselves, judgmental of others and a host of many other bondages. I’ll just suggest to you that Jesus said all sins will be forgiven except the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit...and that the book of 1st John warns that those who claim sinlessness are deceived.

God bless you as you grow in Jesus.

When I was in SDA, I was one of the worst sinners around. Church of Christ only showed me an erroneous teaching about grace. I only stayed in that for a year before I left.

It wasn't until I had a supernatural "religious experience" where God gave me a vision, and spoke to me, that He then filled me to overflowing with His Spirit. From then on I left all denominational teachings behind and the Spirit taught me, Himself. And His empowerment in me shows me that all those scriptures about sinlessness are true, and more than possible. It is just according to my new nature I received that same night - immediately changing me from a sinner to a child of God. Ever since then, 100% of my prayers are answered. Not with a "no," either. LOL But receiving what I prayed for, because it was always according to His will.
 

CharismaticLady

Well-known member
I’ve heard this ‘teaching’ before. I immediately thought to myself...it’s SDA teaching, Church of God, Church of Christ or Holiness Pentecostal. So I checked out your profile. Sure enough...you have a background in the SDA church and Church of Christ. I don’t mean that as an insult. I also was an SDA and have been to the other groups mentioned. I know where you got those ideas.

I won’t go into the long explanation as to why your understanding about willful sin and loss of salvation is problematic and sets those who believe that ‘accidental’ sins can be forgiven, but not ‘willful’ sins can’t inevitably causes people who believe it to become self deceived about themselves, judgmental of others and a host of many other bondages. I’ll just suggest to you that Jesus said all sins will be forgiven except the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit...and that the book of 1st John warns that those who claim sinlessness are deceived.

God bless you as you grow in Jesus.

So you are one of those that believes that the unrepentant of 1 John 1:8 is actually a born again Christian. No! The next verse is its CONTEXT! But if you confess your sin, He is faithful and just to forgive you your sin, and cleanse you from all unrighteousness. Don't you get it? ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS. That is sinless. That error is prevalent in Calvinism. Are you a Calvinist?
 

AllOfGrace

Member
So you are one of those that believes that the unrepentant of 1 John 1:8 is actually a born again Christian. No! The next verse is its CONTEXT! But if you confess your sin, He is faithful and just to forgive you your sin, and cleanse you from all unrighteousness. Don't you get it? ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS. That is sinless. That error is prevalent in Calvinism. Are you a Calvinist?
Whoa. No offense, but You are all over the map there. I never quoted 1 john 1:8.

But just to clarify...are you suggesting that 1John 1:9 teaches that if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness means that He makes us sinless?
 

civic

Well-known member
I’ve heard this ‘teaching’ before. I immediately thought to myself...it’s SDA teaching, Church of God, Church of Christ or Holiness Pentecostal. So I checked out your profile. Sure enough...you have a background in the SDA church and Church of Christ. I don’t mean that as an insult. I also was an SDA and have been to the other groups mentioned. I know where you got those ideas.

I won’t go into the long explanation as to why your understanding about willful sin and loss of salvation is problematic and sets those who believe that ‘accidental’ sins can be forgiven, but not ‘willful’ sins can’t inevitably causes people who believe it to become self deceived about themselves, judgmental of others and a host of many other bondages. I’ll just suggest to you that Jesus said all sins will be forgiven except the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit...and that the book of 1st John warns that those who claim sinlessness are deceived.

God bless you as you grow in Jesus.
Charismatic sinless perfection
 

CharismaticLady

Well-known member
and that the book of 1st John warns that those who claim sinlessness are deceived.
I never quoted 1 john 1:8.

You just did, unless you don't know which verse you were referring to.

But what does John really say.

1 John 3:
4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
 

AllOfGrace

Member
Charismatic sinless perfection
Methinks so! You know what fascinates me about this phenomenon? It's how they use 1 John as the diving board (or Paddle board) for this teaching...when that is the very Epistle that exposes that what they are teaching is error. Fascinating.

As I understand it...the errors that John was combatting in his Epistles had elements of teaching from Gnosticism (Secret, Personal, Spiritual Revelation that boosted their understanding BEYOND the common believer), Cerinthianism and Docetism. The latter 2 of those involved the beliefs that...

- All flesh is sinful
- One cannot have fellowship with God unless one is sinless

So this led those who were decieved by those teachings to conclude that through a supernatural enlightenment and empowerment experience, they had been catapulted beyond the levels of the common believer...into the realm of sinlessness. They didn't sin anymore. Hence, they looked down on believers confessing their sins (daily) as Jesus commanded...for to confess one's sins would be an admission that they still sinned.

Furthermore, this led to the teaching that Jesus didn't really come in the flesh. since, they reasoned, all flesh is sinful and corrupted, Jesus didn't really come in the flesh...for if He did it would mean that He became sinful. So He only 'Seemed' to come in the flesh (hence the term Docetism...from Dokein - 'it seems').

And furthermore, this inevitably led those who embraced these errors to begin to look frowningly upon the 'unenlightened' believers in the church who did confess their sins daily and their need of His forgiveness and cleansing. They began to loathe them...look at them as losers...and eventually...they left the believing community and went off into full blown gnosticism and who knows where else.

It's amazing how you can see that these same errors and results take place among the Charismatic sinless perfection movement. It's got all the same elements...

- We've had this incredible spiritual enlightenment experience from God!
- We don't sin anymore!
- The entire Christian church is full of all these sinners in error! They can't see what I see!
- I can't be associated with them! ...and then they bail and fulfill exactly what John said about them..."They went out from us, but they were never really of us'. Ironic. The very same judgment that they pronounced upon those they claimed were in error (ie. If they sin after conversion...they were never truly saved')...is fulfilled in them.
 
Not if one believe scripture

Romans 4:1-5 (KJV)
1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Calvinists don't understand the parable of the wedding banquet where the king INVITED MANY to the wedding banquet who did NOT come. Only AFTER they rejected that invitation did the king open the wedding banquet to others.

So Jesus DOES OFFER redemption to those whom he KNOWS will reject it. "For MANY are INVITED but FEW are chosen." (Mt. 22:14)

edit rule 22 violation
 
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CharismaticLady

Well-known member
Methinks so! You know what fascinates me about this phenomenon? It's how they use 1 John as the diving board (or Paddle board) for this teaching...when that is the very Epistle that exposes that what they are teaching is error. Fascinating.

Civic keeps putting sinless and perfection together as if that is what I teach and its not, Delete personal attack Rule 12.8 The numerous accusations of “you are lying” or “you are a liar” or “that is a lie” will stop and no longer permitted on our forums to accuse posters of a “lie” .

And it seems you haven't reviewed chapter three.
catapulted beyond the levels of the common believer...into the realm of sinlessness. They didn't sin anymore. Hence, they looked down on believers confessing their sins (daily) as Jesus commanded...for to confess one's sins would be an admission that they still sinned.

Almost. A Believer is catapulted beyond the levels of the common human being. We don't WILLFULLY sin anymore. But we do commit trespasses, not sins of lawlessness. We need to forgive others their trespasses against us, so that our own trespasses may be forgiven. In love we are also to go to those who may hold something against us and attempt to reconcile.

Matthew 5:23-25; Matthew 6:14-15.

Edit. Personal attack.
 
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AllOfGrace

Member
Civic keeps putting sinless and perfection together as if that is what I teach and its not, but his character doesn't keep him from lying. And it seems you haven't reviewed chapter three.


Almost. A Believer is catapulted beyond the levels of the common human being. We don't WILLFULLY sin anymore. But we do commit trespasses, not sins of lawlessness.
We don't WILLFULLY sin anymore. But we do commit trespasses, not sins of lawlessness.

We need to forgive others their trespasses against us, so that our own trespasses may be forgiven. In love we are also to go to those who may hold something against us and attempt to reconcile.

Matthew 5:23-25; Matthew 6:14-15.

Let's see if your character is any better than civic's.
It's your focus and emphasis on Wilfully Sinning that causes me to think that you are over emphasizing it and making an entire doctrine out of it. I've seen this teaching before. I know people who heave held it. I've seen it cause people to go insane and even take their own life. I had a friend that went to a church that taught this. They would be gung ho in church for a few months...then stop going because they had sinned...and then go back to church again and tell me 'I wasn't really converted a few months ago when you saw me...but I am now. That same friend is not a Christian anymore because they believe they blew and wilfully sinned and therefore there is no hope for them. They are bitter against God because of it. I know a minister for a certain denomination that emphasized this teaching. He appeared very godly and holy and...then he left the church, married a Wiccan priest, got divorced and killed himself.

Anyhow, no offense, but all of this is really off topic from the OP. I really do hope that you have achieved that level of not sinning wilfully anymore. More power to you if you have.
 

CharismaticLady

Well-known member
It's your focus and emphasis on Wilfully Sinning that causes me to think that you are over emphasizing it and making an entire doctrine out of it. I've seen this teaching before. I know people who heave held it. I've seen it cause people to go insane and even take their own life. I had a friend that went to a church that taught this. They would be gung ho in church for a few months...then stop going because they had sinned...and then go back to church again and tell me 'I wasn't really converted a few months ago when you saw me...but I am now. That same friend is not a Christian anymore because they believe they blew and wilfully sinned and therefore there is no hope for them. They are bitter against God because of it. I know a minister for a certain denomination that emphasized this teaching. He appeared very godly and holy and...then he left the church, married a Wiccan priest, got divorced and killed himself.

Anyhow, no offense, but all of this is really off topic from the OP. I really do hope that you have achieved that level of not sinning wilfully anymore. More power to you if you have.

Do you know the difference between the two types of sin in God's eyes? That's really all that matters. Not what I believe, or you believe, but what God accepts or doesn't accept. Take more time figuring that out rather than trying to find justifications to sin.

One type is a sin unto death, and the other is a sin not unto death. And it is NOT accepting or rejecting Christ. It has to do with our knowledge, and willfully sinning or not willfully sinning. Check out Numbers 15:22-36

So it is not God obeying our denomination's beliefs, but us obeying God's demands.
 

CharismaticLady

Well-known member
Anyhow, no offense, but all of this is really off topic from the OP. I really do hope that you have achieved that level of not sinning wilfully anymore. More power to you if you have.

Yes I have, but it is ONLY because Jesus' Spirit has made it so easy. After all, Jesus said, "My yoke is easy, and my burden is light." I found that when I received His Spirit, He super-sensitized my conscience. That is where God's laws are written. I just never do anything against my conscience, even when I have more and more knowledge of God's will. Simple. But, there is one other thing and that is our relationship with one another. We must not provoke, but forgive those who do. It is one reason why I took civic off of ignore.

As far as the OP, I have already stated that it is stupid, when the test of whether or not we are a Christian is far more important than who chose who. And that is all about sin, the sole reason Jesus died for us. He was manifest to take away our sin, and in Him there is no sin. 1 John 3:5
 

AllOfGrace

Member
Do you know the difference between the two types of sin in God's eyes? That's really all that matters. Not what I believe, or you believe, but what God accepts or doesn't accept. Take more time figuring that out rather than trying to find justifications to sin.
One type is a sin unto death, and the other is a sin not unto death. And it is NOT accepting or rejecting Christ. It has to do with our knowledge, and willfully sinning or not willfully sinning. Check out Numbers 15:22-36

You see, this is why I won't spend a whole lot of time debating this. I know what you are saying. I know where this comes from. And I know where it is going. You are gonna talk about the sin with a high hand, and the sin that leads to death etc.. I know. I've been down this road. And here already, you are accusing me of trying to find justification for sin. This teaching leads you to do that...just like it led those in 1 John to look down on other believers.


Let me share a little bit of my testimony with you, and maybe you will understand a little more about me.

I grew up with NO relation to Christianity. None. I grew up around bikers and barss. My mom was a bartender. I started smoking cigarettes and pot at age 12...doing harder drugs at 14...and I partied non stop until I was a 21 year old high school drop out. The only thing I knew about Jesus was from what I heard in a Christian Heavy Metal song by Stryper...that He loves me and cares for me. Anyhow...long story short...I went to a local church one day...heard the gospel and believed in Jesus as my savior and Lord...and BOOM. I was born again hard. I went on to become a missionary overseas for a few years...and an evangelist.

I got married...my wife left for another man...I spiralled in depression...got angry at God...quit praying, reading the Bible, Going to church...started drinking for a decade and a half. Then I joined a group of former Christians who were atheists and became an Atheist for a few years. Well...I TRIED to be an Atheist. You gotta have a LOT of faith to be an Atheist. Anyhow...I left God...didn't believe in Him anymore and became a hardcore alchoholic for years.

But you know what? even though I left God...He didn't leave me. Even in the deepest darkest depths of drunken atheist hell...He was still there calling me back to Himself through the Holy Spirit. I finally left those Atheist people. They never really cared about me. Ironically, the more of this science I was studying that was supposed to prove that God doesn't exist...the more I began to see God's existence EVERYWHERE. And when I started suggesting that this science actually gives evidence of Intelligent design...those Atheists booted me out.

In the midst of my absolute drunken rebellion against God...the Holy Spirit began to show me that God not only exists and it can be seen everywhere...but that He still loved me and wanted me. And so one night...I just fell to me knees and cried out to our Heavenly Father. 'Father God I blew it! I've been so wrong. I took it all out on you. Please forgive me. I want you to be on the throne of my life again!" And I cannot describe to you how God scooped me right up in His arms that night and comforted me and loved me. Just like the prodigal son...before I could even finish, He put the ring on my finger, put that royal robe on me and let me know that I was always welcome in His house because even though I went astray...I was still His kid.

I've been walking with Christ again ever since. But here's the part I want you to understand. God took me back right where I was...but I had become an alcoholic. I still drank beer every night. At least a 6 pack...sometimes more. But I mean...I still went to work. But God blessed me...answered prayers...I was leaps and bounds beyond where I was when I was wallowing in sin. After a couple of years...through studying the Bible and the Holy Spirit's conviction...I felt the Lord telling me that it was time to quit the drinking. Pfff...no problem, right? Wrong. When I tried to quit...something I told myself I could do anytime I wanted to...I realized that I was in bondage to it.

This led to a year long struggle to quit drinking. God had convicted me that it was a sin for ME. It wasn't His will for me...for a lot of reasons. But every night...after work...it became a battle. I lost that battle many, many, many times. I could go a day or 2 sometimes...and then I would binge drink a 12 pack every night for a week. And then I had to battle the feelings of defeat and condemnation and Satan's hellish voice accusing me. I was tempted many times to give up and give in for good. But God wouldn't let me. He stuck with me through that whole struggle. When I fell, He was the lifter of my head. Even though I sinned and blew it...WILFULLY...full well knowing it wasn't His will...He forgave me and wouldn't give up on me.

Guess what? I've been completely delivered from alcohol for a long time now. I can't even remember the last time I had a drink. You know what made the difference? UNDERSTANDING GOD"S GRACE AND THE PERFECT FINISHED WORK OF CHRIST ON THE CROSS FOR ME.

You know what I've discovered? Understanding God's unrelenting love and grace is the only thing that really changes people. The law doesn't change people. Rules don't change people. Living under condemnation does change people...it pushes them away from God.

If I had believed this teaching about sin that you are espousing...I would have killed myself. I certainly never would have gained the victory. If wilfully sinning is choosing to do sin...then I did it a thousand times in the process of overcoming alcoholism. And Vaping too. That's another thing God delivered me from kinda in the same way.

So, my message to you is...don't limit the grace of God. Be careful with that teaching you have. Please don't share it with someone who is struggling with their sinful flesh. It could hurt them really bad. Believe it all you want...but please don't share it with new believers or with believers who are struggling with sin.
 

CharismaticLady

Well-known member
You see, this is why I won't spend a whole lot of time debating this. I know what you are saying. I know where this comes from. And I know where it is going. You are gonna talk about the sin with a high hand, and the sin that leads to death etc.. I know. I've been down this road. And here already, you are accusing me of trying to find justification for sin. This teaching leads you to do that...just like it led those in 1 John to look down on other believers.


Let me share a little bit of my testimony with you, and maybe you will understand a little more about me.

I grew up with NO relation to Christianity. None. I grew up around bikers and barss. My mom was a bartender. I started smoking cigarettes and pot at age 12...doing harder drugs at 14...and I partied non stop until I was a 21 year old high school drop out. The only thing I knew about Jesus was from what I heard in a Christian Heavy Metal song by Stryper...that He loves me and cares for me. Anyhow...long story short...I went to a local church one day...heard the gospel and believed in Jesus as my savior and Lord...and BOOM. I was born again hard. I went on to become a missionary overseas for a few years...and an evangelist.

I got married...my wife left for another man...I spiralled in depression...got angry at God...quit praying, reading the Bible, Going to church...started drinking for a decade and a half. Then I joined a group of former Christians who were atheists and became an Atheist for a few years. Well...I TRIED to be an Atheist. You gotta have a LOT of faith to be an Atheist. Anyhow...I left God...didn't believe in Him anymore and became a hardcore alchoholic for years.

But you know what? even though I left God...He didn't leave me. Even in the deepest darkest depths of drunken atheist hell...He was still there calling me back to Himself through the Holy Spirit. I finally left those Atheist people. They never really cared about me. Ironically, the more of this science I was studying that was supposed to prove that God doesn't exist...the more I began to see God's existence EVERYWHERE. And when I started suggesting that this science actually gives evidence of Intelligent design...those Atheists booted me out.

In the midst of my absolute drunken rebellion against God...the Holy Spirit began to show me that God not only exists and it can be seen everywhere...but that He still loved me and wanted me. And so one night...I just fell to me knees and cried out to our Heavenly Father. 'Father God I blew it! I've been so wrong. I took it all out on you. Please forgive me. I want you to be on the throne of my life again!" And I cannot describe to you how God scooped me right up in His arms that night and comforted me and loved me. Just like the prodigal son...before I could even finish, He put the ring on my finger, put that royal robe on me and let me know that I was always welcome in His house because even though I went astray...I was still His kid.

I've been walking with Christ again ever since. But here's the part I want you to understand. God took me back right where I was...but I had become an alcoholic. I still drank beer every night. At least a 6 pack...sometimes more. But I mean...I still went to work. But God blessed me...answered prayers...I was leaps and bounds beyond where I was when I was wallowing in sin. After a couple of years...through studying the Bible and the Holy Spirit's conviction...I felt the Lord telling me that it was time to quit the drinking. Pfff...no problem, right? Wrong. When I tried to quit...something I told myself I could do anytime I wanted to...I realized that I was in bondage to it.

This led to a year long struggle to quit drinking. God had convicted me that it was a sin for ME. It wasn't His will for me...for a lot of reasons. But every night...after work...it became a battle. I lost that battle many, many, many times. I could go a day or 2 sometimes...and then I would binge drink a 12 pack every night for a week. And then I had to battle the feelings of defeat and condemnation and Satan's hellish voice accusing me. I was tempted many times to give up and give in for good. But God wouldn't let me. He stuck with me through that whole struggle. When I fell, He was the lifter of my head. Even though I sinned and blew it...WILFULLY...full well knowing it wasn't His will...He forgave me and wouldn't give up on me.

Guess what? I've been completely delivered from alcohol for a long time now. I can't even remember the last time I had a drink. You know what made the difference? UNDERSTANDING GOD"S GRACE AND THE PERFECT FINISHED WORK OF CHRIST ON THE CROSS FOR ME.

You know what I've discovered? Understanding God's unrelenting love and grace is the only thing that really changes people. The law doesn't change people. Rules don't change people. Living under condemnation does change people...it pushes them away from God.

If I had believed this teaching about sin that you are espousing...I would have killed myself. I certainly never would have gained the victory. If wilfully sinning is choosing to do sin...then I did it a thousand times in the process of overcoming alcoholism. And Vaping too. That's another thing God delivered me from kinda in the same way.

So, my message to you is...don't limit the grace of God. Be careful with that teaching you have. Please don't share it with someone who is struggling with their sinful flesh. It could hurt them really bad. Believe it all you want...but please don't share it with new believers or with believers who are struggling with sin.

I wish I could determine who is a young believer, and who is a false teacher. It is the false teaching that will lead people to hell, not the gospel that Jesus came to free us from sin. The false teaching is that Jesus came to free us from the law and the penalty of sin. But the truth will set us free, John 8:32-36.

Much of the problem in the Church is the denial of the Holy Spirit. You are trying to put me in a denominational box. Truth is, there isn't a church I know of that teaches what I teach. One is close, but not exact. It's in Texas, and I'm in Tennessee.
 
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