"For many are called, but few chosen." Matthew 22:14

Theo1689

Well-known member
First of all, shouldn't the entire Bible support Calvinism? Why the cherry picking?

As soon as you can prove "free will" from John 6:44, I'll take your criticism seriously.

Second of all, just because you are able to list Bible verse references, doesn't automatically prove that the verses do what you claim them to do. You need to prove your claim.

There you go, running around with the big ugly fat chip on your shoulder. I guess Tom gave it to you before he left, huh?

You have no desire to even CONSIDER Calvinism being true, and I have no need or desire to try to convince you that it's true. So why should I waste my time trying to do something that NEITHER of us want? The important thing is that I've proven it true to MYSELF. And that's all I need to do.

You simply want fodder to argue against, but Jesus tells me in Matt. 7:6 not to fall for that trap.
 
G

guest1

Guest
Lol John 6 has nothing to do with the gospel and salvation is not mentioned. You guys don’t even know what the gospel is and where it’s at in scripture. You make up your own gospel .

another giant fallacy

oops

next

Hope this helps !!!
 

Synergy

Well-known member
As soon as you can prove "free will" from John 6:44, I'll take your criticism seriously.
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws [ἑλκύσῃ] them, and I will raise them up at the last day." (John 6:44)

In Greek, when ἑλκύσῃ is associated with inanimate objects then ἑλκύσῃ means to physically drag. There is no other way to draw an inanimate object than to be physical and forceful about it such as dragging it.

Humans, on the other hand, are a little bit above inanimate objects. In fact, in Greek a person who is ἑλκύστικος is said to be attractive or winsome, not a autocrat or dictator. In that sense ἑλκύω means to draw by inward power or to lead or to attract and man can choose to follow or not.

The problem that we're having with Reformed theology is that it has been led astray so much by the anti-Bible doctrine of Total Depravity that it ends up treating humans as inanimate objects.
There you go, running around with the big ugly fat chip on your shoulder. I guess Tom gave it to you before he left, huh?
A request for you to prove your claims is a big ugly fat chip on my shoulder? Fascinating....
You have no desire to even CONSIDER Calvinism being true, and I have no need or desire to try to convince you that it's true. So why should I waste my time trying to do something that NEITHER of us want? The important thing is that I've proven it true to MYSELF. And that's all I need to do.
You simply want fodder to argue against, but Jesus tells me in Matt. 7:6 not to fall for that trap.
You possess the free will to live in your subjective reality.
 

Slyzr

Well-known member
As soon as you can prove "free will" from John 6:44, I'll take your criticism seriously.



There you go, running around with the big ugly fat chip on your shoulder. I guess Tom gave it to you before he left, huh?

You have no desire to even CONSIDER Calvinism being true, and I have no need or desire to try to convince you that it's true. So why should I waste my time trying to do something that NEITHER of us want? The important thing is that I've proven it true to MYSELF. And that's all I need to do.

You simply want fodder to argue against, but Jesus tells me in Matt. 7:6 not to fall for that trap.

How can man not being be tenable?

Seriously .... start offering up you kids.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws [ἑλκύσῃ] them, and I will raise them up at the last day." (John 6:44)

In Greek, when ἑλκύσῃ is associated with inanimate objects then ἑλκύσῃ means to physically drag. There is no other way to draw an inanimate object than to be physical and forceful about it such as dragging it.

Humans, on the other hand, are a little bit above inanimate objects. In fact, in Greek a person who is ἑλκύστικος is said to be attractive or winsome, not a autocrat or dictator. In that sense ἑλκύω means to draw by inward power or to lead or to attract and man can choose to follow or not.

The problem that we're having with Reformed theology is that it has been led astray so much by the anti-Bible doctrine of Total Depravity that it ends up treating humans as inanimate objects.

Nothing there about "free will".

A request for you to prove your claims is a big ugly fat chip on my shoulder? Fascinating....

Since I have no desire to convince you of anything, why do I even NEED to?

You possess the free will to live in your subjective reality.

Your mocking comments like this are one of the many reasons for my distaste for interacting with you.
 

Synergy

Well-known member
Nothing there about "free will".
My main argument was that "the problem with Reformed theology is that it has been led astray so much by the anti-Bible doctrine of Total Depravity that it ends up treating humans as inanimate objects". I saw no counterargument from you on that.

My secondary argument is that "man can choose to follow or not" and again I saw no counterargument from you on that either.
Since I have no desire to convince you of anything, why do I even NEED to?
You have the free will to do what you want.
Your mocking comments like this are one of the many reasons for my distaste for interacting with you.
Again, you possess the free will to do what you want.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
My main argument was that "the problem with Reformed theology is that it has been led astray so much by the anti-Bible doctrine of Total Depravity that it ends up treating humans as inanimate objects". I saw no counterargument from you on that.

I gave "no counterargument" on that for many reasons, not the least if which is that it is such an idiotic and bankrupt argument that I don't NEED to offer anything.

Why is it that when people tell you they're not interested in arguing with you, you double down and harass those people all the more?

I'm confident enough in my faith that I don't NEED to justify myself to you.

My secondary argument is that "man can choose to follow or not" and again I saw no counterargument from you on that either.

Because John 6:44 doesn't say anything about "choose to follow or not".
It says if God doesn't draw you, you CANNOT come to Christ.
And if He does draw you, then you WILL.

There is no "choice" on man's part, just as there was no "choice" on the part of the lost coin or lost sheep of Luke 15.

You have the free will to do what you want.

Again, you possess the free will to do what you want.

UnBiblical.
 

Synergy

Well-known member
I gave "no counterargument" on that for many reasons, not the least if which is that it is such an idiotic and bankrupt argument that I don't NEED to offer anything.
I must say that the one thing that is irresistible to Calvinists is the insults they continuously fling. Fascinating....
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
I must say that the one thing that is irresistible to Calvinists is the insults they continuously fling. Fascinating....

But your insults are okay?
Double standards much?

Okay.... Let's test this... Can you please give me a synonym for "idiot" that you would find inoffensive?
 

Slyzr

Well-known member
But your insults are okay?
Double standards much?

Okay.... Let's test this... Can you please give me a synonym for "idiot" that you would find inoffensive?

Not being?

Of coure that is just a tad problematic.
 
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Howie

Well-known member
You do realize that scripture not once ever says the elect,chosen, called are saved, have salvation/eternal life. Prove me wrong :)

That is a calvinist assumption not found in the text.
You do realize that scripture not once ever says the elect,chosen, called are not saved, do not have salvation/eternal life. Prove me wrong. 😏
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Good point ....

What about the being cast into outer darkness

For the not having a wedding garment.

What you got on that.
I would say the person entered by climbing over the walls instead of entering through the King's gate; making him an Unchosen Thief for stealing entry...
 
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Synergy

Well-known member
I would say the person entered by climbing over the walls instead of entering through the King's gate; making him an Unchosen Thief for stealing entry...
Seems like a rather energetic young man.

Any idea how many walls he had to climb, obstacles and such?
He also had to cross moats with snapping alligators in them.

But seriously, why would anyone want to or even have to do that when as many as could be found were being urged to come to the Wedding? This suggestion is just too silly.

Imagine the expression on his face when he realizes that he didn't have to dodge all those snapping alligators when he could have just walked in through the gate?
 

Slyzr

Well-known member
He also had to cross moats with snapping alligators in them.

But seriously, why would anyone want to or even have to do that when as many as could be found were being urged to come to the Wedding? This suggestion is just too silly.

Imagine the expression on his face when he realizes that he didn't have to dodge all those snapping alligators when he could have just walked in through the gate?

hummmm ....

Good point .... so the plot thickens.

Let's see ...... definetly NOT the prodigal son.

Friend of the brides family perhaps, from out of town?
 
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ReverendRV

Well-known member
He also had to cross moats with snapping alligators in them.

But the distinction is drawn between the terms called and chosen.. why would anyone want to or even have to do that when as many as could be found were being urged to come to the Wedding? This suggestion is just too silly.

Imagine the expression on his face when he realizes that he didn't have to dodge all those snapping alligators when he could have just walked in through the gate?
Many are Called but few are Chosen. We agree the friend was Called but not Chosen/Elect; because that's Christ's conclusion at the end. Jesus draws a distinction between the terms Called and Chosen..

Why do you think it's silly for me to suggest he crept in? You normally don't treat me like this. So far I don't Mind talking to you...

Look at it like this, you wouldn't say that to your peers in Sunday School if I were visiting your class...
 
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Synergy

Well-known member
Many are Called but few are Chosen. We agree the friend was Called but not Chosen/Elect; because that's Christ's conclusion at the end. Jesus draws a distinction between the terms Called and Chosen..

Why do you think it's silly for me to suggest he crept in? You normally don't treat me like this. So far I don't Mind talking to you...
I'm sorry but the fact remains that as many as could be found were being urged to come to the Wedding. That means that the gate was open to all on the day of the wedding. In light of that, why would anyone want to or even have to do that which you suggested happened when the friend could just as well enter through the gate like everyone else?
 
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