For Tertium Quid, something about Luther that....

Bonnie

Super Member
a Catholic poster put on the RCC board. I have no idea how to research this but figured YOU do. :)

In response to "His own followers said that Luther was a pathological liar, his teaching bore this out; hence, Falsus in uno, falsus in omnibus.".

While Dr. Johann Eck wasn't a follower of Luther He did say a few things of Luther's character:

“More than once have I proved,” he says, “ that he is a liar and hence that he has for his father, him [the devil] of whom the Scripture says that he is a liar and a murderer.” “The fellow exudes lies from every pore and is inconstancy itself (homo totus mendaciis scatens nil constat). His teaching too is full of deception and calumny. What he has just advanced, he presently rejects without the least difficulty.” “ The dregs of those vices of which he is always accusing the Christians, we rightly pour back upon his own head ; let him drink himself of the cup he has mixed.” “ He heaps up a mountain of evil on the Pope and the Church,” but with “ his nun,” this is what he adds in a later edition in his indignation with Luther s marriage “ he is really worshipping Asmodeus “ and this he is not ashamed to do in the old monastery of the Augustinians, “ where once pious monks served the Lord God, and pious foundations, now alienated from their original purpose, proclaimed the Christian virtues to the faithful.” [Hartmann Grisar, Luther, pg. 147 c., Conclusion of the Tract “De Purgatorio,” “ Opp.,” Pars II, Ingolst., 1531, pp. 95 , 96. Cp. volume iv., xxii. :” Luther and Lying.”]

And then there was Thomas Müntzer, a reformer's reformer.

[Thomas] Müntzer, in his “Schutz Rede,” was not slow to answer Luther’s “boasting “concerning his three appearances in public. It must be touched upon here for the sake of completeness, although it must be borne in mind that it is the utterance of an opponent. Müntzer calls Luther repeatedly, and not merely on account of this boasting, “Dr. Liar “and“ Lying Luther.” He says to him: “ Why do you throw dust in the eyes of the people ? you were very well off indeed at Leipzig. You rode out of the city crowned with gillyflowers and drank good wine at Melchior Lother’s? Nor were you in any danger at Augsburg [as a matter of fact every precaution had been taken], for Staupitz the oracle stood at your side. . .. That you appeared before the Empire at Worms at all was thanks to the German nobles whom you had cajoled and honeyed, for they fully expected, that, by your preaching you would obtain for them Bohemian gifts of monasteries and foundations which you are now promising to the princes. [Hartmann Grisar, Luther, pg. 367, c., In “Neudrucke”; this work also is edited by Enders (p. 19 ff.). The passage will be found on p. 37 f.]

And

Here comes Campanus, he says of a refractory theologian in his ranks, and “ makes himself out to be the only man who is sure of everything” ; “he prides himself on being certain upon all matters and of never being at a loss “ ; Campanus condemns him as a “ liar and diabolical man,” and of this he was “ as sure as that God is God.” And yet this Campanus has “ never passed through any struggle, nor had a tussle with the devil, and actually glories in the fact.” On the other hand, he himself, he says, had been “ tried by the devil “ and proved by “ temptation “ ; that is the true test and is essential for every real “student of theology” ; “for as soon as God s Word dawns upon you, the devil is sure to try you, and in this way you become a doctor in very truth.”[Ibid, pg. 378]

I know who Eck was and he debated Luther so naturally enough, he would have nasty things to say about Luther, and impugn his charactor. But I have never heard of this Muentzer fellow. Ah ,I checked your Beggars All website, and he was a dangerous radical that Luther didn't like. So, naturally, he would say bad things about Luther. But I just wanted to know if you know anything about these quotes.

Anyway, could you tell us a little bit about this, if you feel so inclined? Thanks. :)
 
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Authentic Nouveau

Well-known member
I know who Eck was and he debated Luther so naturally enough, he would have nasty things to say about Luther, and impugn his charactor. But I have never heard of this Muentzer fellow. Ah ,I checked your Beggars All website, and he was a dangerous radical that Luther didn't like. So, naturally, they would say bad things about Luther. But I just wanted to know if you know anything about these quotes.

Anyway, could you tell us a little bit about this, if you feel so inclined? Thanks. :)
Smear men that exposed a skalawag?
Just a reminder, Luther was dangerous. Very dangerous.

Matt 5:44
But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you,


Matthaeus 5:44

Luther Bibel 1545

44 Ich aber sage euch: Liebet eure Feinde; segnet, die euch fluchen; tut wohl denen, die euch hassen; bittet für die, so euch beleidigen und verfolgen,
 

Tertiumquid

Active member
a Catholic poster put on the RCC board. I have no idea how to research this but figured YOU do. :)



I know who Eck was and he debated Luther so naturally enough, he would have nasty things to say about Luther, and impugn his charactor. But I have never heard of this Muentzer fellow. Ah ,I checked your Beggars All website, and he was a dangerous radical that Luther didn't like. So, naturally, they would say bad things about Luther. But I just wanted to know if you know anything about these quotes.

Anyway, could you tell us a little bit about this, if you feel so inclined? Thanks. :)
So sorry, super busy this week. I should have more time next week,... but.. if that's the proof of Luther's "followers" that Joe T. has, that's ridiculous.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
No problem. I already pointed out that Eck was an opponent and the other guy was a follower, but he and Luther had a rather bitter falling out, so he wasn't a follower, either. :) So, this was hardly "proof" of what Luther's "followers" thought about him.
 

Nic

Well-known member
No problem. I already pointed out that Eck was an opponent and the other guy was a follower, but he and Luther had a rather bitter falling out, so he wasn't a follower, either. :) So, this was hardly "proof" of what Luther's "followers" thought about him.
Morning Bonnie,
Here's the guy I had in mind.

Thomas Müntzer, he was a radical reformer apparently so says Britannica online.

 
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BJ Bear

Well-known member
Morning Bonnie,
Here's the guy I had in mind.

Thomas Müntzer, he was a radical reformer apparently so says Britannica online.

It is telling that the prople who swallow the Holy Spirit feathers and all: the Roman Pope, Muntzer, and others, find their common cause against the guy who proclaims the word of God rather than uses it as a pretext.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Smear men that exposed a skalawag?

You sure like the word "smear" a lot....perhaps you should invest in a good Thesaurus...?

But what I said about these 2 men is 100% correct, and a matter of public record. So, where is the smear?
Just a reminder, Luther was dangerous. Very dangerous.

Yes, to the RCC, but not to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. :)
Matt 5:44
But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you,


Matthaeus 5:44​

Luther Bibel 1545​

44 Ich aber sage euch: Liebet eure Feinde; segnet, die euch fluchen; tut wohl denen, die euch hassen; bittet für die, so euch beleidigen und verfolgen,
How ironic that you quote this and apparently apply it to Luther, but not to Eck and Muntzer, who did the opposite of what Jesus said to do, in Matthew....
 
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Tertiumquid

Active member
No problem. I already pointed out that Eck was an opponent and the other guy was a follower, but he and Luther had a rather bitter falling out, so he wasn't a follower, either. :) So, this was hardly "proof" of what Luther's "followers" thought about him.
If I recall, Joe T. has a fondness for Hartmann Grisar's multi-volume Luther biography (or maybe I'm confusing him with some other CARM defender of Rome). Grisar's work, while now ignored by modern scholarship, is fairly accurate with facts, but the interpretation Grisar made of the facts is why his work is obsolete.
 

BJ Bear

Well-known member
If I recall, Joe T. has a fondness for Hartmann Grisar's multi-volume Luther biography (or maybe I'm confusing him with some other CARM defender of Rome). Grisar's work, while now ignored by modern scholarship, is fairly accurate with facts, but the interpretation Grisar made of the facts is why his work is obsolete.
Ya, the debate with Eck helped Luther see how far the Papacy had wandered from the Truth. Ignorance at that time on Luther's part in this regard is not the same as telling lies.
 

balshan

Well-known member
Ya, the debate with Eck helped Luther see how far the Papacy had wandered from the Truth. Ignorance at that time on Luther's part in this regard is not the same as telling lies.
I have been surprised to see the hostility shown towards Luther, he was not perfect but no person is. He however, was able to show people that you need to read the word for yourself and that what you hear is not always God's truth. When we are awakened to the truth of God, I am sure he all believers grew and went from milk to solid food.

1 Cor 3:2

I fed you with milk, not solid food, for you were not ready for it. And even now you are not yet ready,
 

balshan

Well-known member
Smear men that exposed a skalawag?
Just a reminder, Luther was dangerous. Very dangerous.

Matt 5:44
But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you,


Matthaeus 5:44​

Luther Bibel 1545​

44 Ich aber sage euch: Liebet eure Feinde; segnet, die euch fluchen; tut wohl denen, die euch hassen; bittet für die, so euch beleidigen und verfolgen,
First who is being smeared???

How was Luther dangerous???? I mean making a statement without evidence means nothing at all. You need to explain your claim.
 

BJ Bear

Well-known member
I have been surprised to see the hostility shown towards Luther, he was not perfect but no person is. He however, was able to show people that you need to read the word for yourself and that what you hear is not always God's truth. When we are awakened to the truth of God, I am sure he all believers grew and went from milk to solid food.

1 Cor 3:2

I fed you with milk, not solid food, for you were not ready for it. And even now you are not yet ready,
If a person thinks that he or she is God then a guy proclaiming the true God is perceived as repulsive to the first person's fantasy and an unwelcome dose of reality.
 

Lutheranian

Member
Ah Muntzer, the guy who was told in a dream that he was the new messiah and the apocalypse was imminent so people should stop getting baptized, married, or communing. What a great witness.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Ah Muntzer, the guy who was told in a dream that he was the new messiah and the apocalypse was imminent so people should stop getting baptized, married, or communing. What a great witness.
He WAS? Well, that is interesting...do you have any quotes from him showcasing these ideas?
 

Authentic Nouveau

Well-known member
You sure like the word "smear" a lot....perhaps you should invest in a good Thesaurus...?
People enjoy smearing people do not like to be called out. It is a political left winger trait.
Is the Thesaurus reference just another insult?

This board is about Luther. Who was famous for smearing Jews and anabaptists.
 
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