For those of you who support abortion in the case of rape;

BMS

Well-known member
No. I'm of the "Prioritise the wishes of a person over the non-existent rights of a non-person" school of thought.
Sure I can. Slavery is not legal and has never been legal in my lifetime. It is pointless speculating how I would feel if I had lived when slavery was legal, as I would have been a different person with different views. As I am now, I think that slavery is rightly illegal and should remain so. Which has nothing to do with abortion.
Depends what you mean by 'person'
I see the unborn human being as a person, you dont, so we have to clarify what a person is first.
 

Temujin

Well-known member
Thats because you guys keep mentioning words you cant define or quantify. That is how it works in a debate. Do you see?
Anyone who thinks that the important factor in a debate on abortion, is the definition of woman, is a complete loony. With apologies to those with mental health problems that do not involve monomania.
 

BMS

Well-known member
Human, born, alive.
And we see person as human and alive from conception. So since we both agree it is a human being in the womb why dont we discuss the issue using that term?

We would then have to decide what you mean by mother
 

stiggy wiggy

Well-known member
No. I'm of the "Prioritise the wishes of a person over the non-existent rights of a non-person" school of thought.

So what criteria determines what is or is not a person? At what point in gestation does personhood kick in? Is personhood gradually endowed or is it all endowed (PRESTO!) at a specific point in time?

Sure I can. Slavery is not legal and has never been legal in my lifetime. It is pointless speculating how I would feel if I had lived when slavery was legal, as I would have been a different person with different views. As I am now, I think that slavery is rightly illegal and should remain so. Which has nothing to do with abortion.

I see. So the impact that the legality of an act would have on its morality is contingent upon the degree of YOUR relationship in time to the act. If you personally HAD been born at a time when slavery was legal, its morality would objectively be different from what it is now.
 
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BMS

Well-known member
Anyone who thinks that the important factor in a debate on abortion, is the definition of woman, is a complete loony. With apologies to those with mental health problems that do not involve monomania.
That would be you then. If you cant define what you mean then we cant debate with you because we dont know what you mean.
You see a mother can only be a woman or perhaps could be someone who is intersex, but not a man. You have already referred to men as woman, which they arent, so it isnt us who is creating the problem but you.
 

Eightcrackers

Well-known member
That would be you then. If you cant define what you mean then we cant debate with you because we dont know what you mean.
You see a mother can only be a woman or perhaps could be someone who is intersex, but not a man. You have already referred to men as woman, which they arent, so it isnt us who is creating the problem but you.
Replace "woman" with "pregnant human", then, and address the argument.
Oh, and replace "unborn baby" with whatever you like.
 

Temujin

Well-known member
Thats because you guys keep mentioning words you cant define or quantify. That is how it works in a debate. Do you see?
Anyone who thinks that the important factor in a debate on abortion, is the definition of woman, is a complete loony. With apologies to those with mental health problems that do not involve monomania.
And we see person as human and alive from conception. So since we both agree it is a human being in the womb why dont we discuss the issue using that term?
Because it is incomplete and hence inaccurate.

We would then have to decide what you mean by mother
No "we" wouldn't.
 

Temujin

Well-known member
So what criteria determines what is or is not a person? At what point in gestation does personhood kick in? Is personhood gradually endowed or is it all endowed (PRESTO!) at a specific point in time?
Do you mean in my view or legally? And if the latter, in which jurisdiction? Assuming that it is my personal view you mean, then personhood is achieved once the unborn child is capable of surviving being separated from the placenta. As each pregnancy would be different in this regard, I favour a 20 week limit on abortions unless it is clear that the unborn child cannot survive and/or the mother's life is in serious jeopardy.

I see. So the impact that the legality of an act would have on its morality is contingent upon the degree of YOUR relationship in time to the act. If you personally HAD been born at a time when slavery was legal, its morality would objectively be different from what it is now.
Since there is nothing objective about morality at all, your point is nonsense. All morality depends on the personal opinions of the individual whose moral view it is.
 

Temujin

Well-known member
That would be you then. If you cant define what you mean then we cant debate with you because we dont know what you mean.
You see a mother can only be a woman or perhaps could be someone who is intersex, but not a man. You have already referred to men as woman, which they arent, so it isnt us who is creating the problem but you.
Don't be sill, and learn to read.
 

Temujin

Well-known member
It's murder, so therefore it is wrong.
No, for obvious legal, moral and even linguistic reasons, legal abortion is not murder. This says nothing about how "wrong" it may be. That is a point of view. That abortion is not murder is not a point of view, it is an objective fact. Anyone claiming that abortion is murder is factually mistaken, and ignorant of what the word "murder" means, to boot.
 

BMS

Well-known member
No, for obvious legal, moral and even linguistic reasons, legal abortion is not murder. This says nothing about how "wrong" it may be. That is a point of view. That abortion is not murder is not a point of view, it is an objective fact. Anyone claiming that abortion is murder is factually mistaken, and ignorant of what the word "murder" means, to boot.
So as we frequently discuss, by definition and logic it should be murder, though you are correct to say legally it is almost always not deemed murder
 

BMS

Well-known member
Do you mean in my view or legally? And if the latter, in which jurisdiction? Assuming that it is my personal view you mean, then personhood is achieved once the unborn child is capable of surviving being separated from the placenta. As each pregnancy would be different in this regard, I favour a 20 week limit on abortions unless it is clear that the unborn child cannot survive and/or the mother's life is in serious jeopardy.

Since there is nothing objective about morality at all, your point is nonsense. All morality depends on the personal opinions of the individual whose moral view it is.
Depends what you mean.
 

BMS

Well-known member
No, for obvious legal, moral and even linguistic reasons, legal abortion is not murder. This says nothing about how "wrong" it may be. That is a point of view. That abortion is not murder is not a point of view, it is an objective fact. Anyone claiming that abortion is murder is factually mistaken, and ignorant of what the word "murder" means, to boot.
Dont be silly, learn to.read
 

stiggy wiggy

Well-known member
Do you mean in my view or legally? And if the latter, in which jurisdiction? Assuming that it is my personal view you mean, then personhood is achieved once the unborn child is capable of surviving being separated from the placenta.

So an unborn child is male or female while not being a person? A male non-person. That is strange indeed. And he or she only becomes a person at the specific point in time when he or she can survive without aid from another, which an infant cannot do. So infants should be fair game for killing, since by your definition they are not persons either.

Since there is nothing objective about morality at all, your point is nonsense. All morality depends on the personal opinions of the individual whose moral view it is.

So eating children was a moral thing for Jeffrey Dahmer.
 
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