For whom did Christ die?

fltom

Well-known member
I provided Christ's testimony. Where does he present any caveats that what he does isn't within the will of his father? You're the one who is tasked with providing scriptural evidence for your bizarre claims.
And you ignored the fact this was also Christ's testimony



John 12:32 (KJV)
32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Your problem is the historical context

Christ was down on earth to do the Fathers will

That included first of all his suffering on the cross

To accomplish that

God hardened many John 12:40

Christ spoke to men in Parables to hide truth Mat 13:10-14

Christ drove men away with difficult sayings John 6:53-67

Christ even instructed some not to reveal his identity

Mark 7:36; 8:30; 9:9; Luke 5:14


secondly to gather a band of disciples who would carry the gospel into the world

these are those given by the Father John 17

Jesus was not trying to win large crowds

and the apostles would not begin their mission until Christ was glorified and The Holy Spirit had been sent

All changed after the cross

Christ would draw

The holy Spirit came

The apostles began their mission to take the gospel into the world
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
And you ignored the fact this was also Christ's testimony



John 12:32 (KJV)
32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
I didn't ignore it at all. In fact, I addressed it by pointing out that it supports my position.
Your problem is the historical context

Christ was down on earth to do the Fathers will

That included first of all his suffering on the cross
You must have a different bible because none of the gospels begin with suffering on the cross. Fail.
Jesus was not trying to win large crowds All changed after the cross
The apostles began their mission to take the gospel into the world
And before Paul was done writing his letters, the gospel had already spread throughout the world. From that point on it basically disappeared.

Note that the gospel is so radical that all who proclaim it are martyred. Everyone else who claims to proclaim the gospel is a fraud. The proof is easily seen when they are asked to present their gospel message.
 

fltom

Well-known member
I didn't ignore it at all. In fact, I addressed it by pointing out that it supports my position.

You must have a different bible because none of the gospels begin with suffering on the cross. Fail.

And before Paul was done writing his letters, the gospel had already spread throughout the world. From that point on it basically disappeared.

Note that the gospel is so radical that all who proclaim it are martyred. Everyone else who claims to proclaim the gospel is a fraud. The proof is easily seen when they are asked to present their gospel message.


John 12:32 (KJV)
32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

does not support you at all

and all you claimed was

They're not mutually exclusive propositions. It is still the Father drawing all men to Christ.

You provide no evidence at all for that Claim

What would it matter who the Father is drawing if Christ is drawing all?

And you really did not deal with the historical context of John 6

Where Christ stated he came down from heaven to do the Fathers will

And God is giving to Christ those that are his

Why you mention gospels is a mystery John 6 was the subject

And Christ had drove away many of his followers with his unexplained eat my flesh drink my blood comments at John 6;53FF

and he is left with the 12 who are identified as the given in John 17
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
John 12:32 (KJV)
32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

does not support you at all

and all you claimed was

They're not mutually exclusive propositions. It is still the Father drawing all men to Christ.

You provide no evidence at all for that Claim
I provided the only proof necessary which you don't seem to feel any need to address. If no one can come to Christ unless the Father draws them, then you're creating a problem where there is none. You seem to think you've come up with some sort of argument to refute my position, but all you've done so far is to provide a passage which doesn't negate my position at all. It merely points out how all men are drawn to Christ by the father. If you think this isn't the case, then the burden of proof is upon you to prove it. Good luck with that.
What would it matter who the Father is drawing if Christ is drawing all?

And you really did not deal with the historical context of John 6

Where Christ stated he came down from heaven to do the Fathers will

And God is giving to Christ those that are his

Why you mention gospels is a mystery John 6 was the subject

And Christ had drove away many of his followers with his unexplained eat my flesh drink my blood comments at John 6;53FF

and he is left with the 12 who are identified as the given in John 17
This is too vague and incoherent to bother with a response.
 

fltom

Well-known member
I provided the only proof necessary which you don't seem to feel any need to address. If no one can come to Christ unless the Father draws them, then you're creating a problem where there is none. You seem to think you've come up with some sort of argument to refute my position, but all you've done so far is to provide a passage which doesn't negate my position at all. It merely points out how all men are drawn to Christ by the father. If you think this isn't the case, then the burden of proof is upon you to prove it. Good luck with that.

This is too vague and incoherent to bother with a response.
And you ignored the historical situation as I presented


And you really did not deal with the historical context of John 6

Where Christ stated he came down from heaven to do the Fathers will

And God is giving to Christ those that are his

John 6:37-38 (KJV)
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

The way he is doing it

John 6:45 (KJV)

45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

And Christ had drove away many of his followers with his unexplained eat my flesh drink my blood comments at John 6;53FF

and he is left with the 12 who are identified as the given in John 17

things would change after the cross

John 12:32 (KJV)
32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

too vague and incoherent is not a response
 

fltom

Well-known member
You didn't present a historical situation to begin with. Fail.

It's not only a response, it's an accurate observation. Repeating yourself doesn't advance the discussion in the slightest.

Go with God.

Be blessed.
Sorry but you ignored the historical context and the change the cross brought about

John 6:38 (ESV)
38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.

Christ when on earth is doing the father will

You ignored the fact the father's drawing and giving is bound to the tome Christ was on the earth

after the cross

John 12:32 (ESV)
32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

Christ is seen drawing men to himself


Ignoring the historical context and scripture as well does not advance a discussion
 
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