For whom did Christ die?

Reformedguy

Well-known member
Calvinism: You're in cardiac arrest at the bottom of the ocean. Christ dives down, pulls you up out of the water, puts you on ground, and resuscitates you back to life.

Arminianism: You're in the water, about to drown, still treading water. Jesus throws a lifesaver ring in your vicinity, and ties the other end of the rope to a sturdy pole. Good luck!
What's funny is he deny the very position he tries to foist upon this room. After all what does provision mean? He is truly a mess
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
you prefer signs?

Makes no difference
Miracles are accepted at face value by those who experience them, whereas signs indicate something further.
What value would signs be to one who had no capability to understand and believe?
No value whatsoever. Although, they do hold some value to repulse most people. The carnal man is repulsed by them.
 

fltom

Well-known member
Miracles are accepted at face value by those who experience them, whereas signs indicate something further.

No value whatsoever. Although, they do hold some value to repulse most people. The carnal man is repulsed by them.
Except those miracles or signs caused men to believe Jesus was the Christ
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
Except those miracles or signs caused men to believe Jesus was the Christ
The scribes and Pharisees could see that he was Christ, but it didn't stop them from having him crucified. As Christ points out, it's an evil generation that seeks after signs.
 

fltom

Well-known member
The scribes and Pharisees could see that he was Christ, but it didn't stop them from having him crucified.


You are skipping over the point

A sign or a miracle should not enable one who cannot hear or see spiritual truth to see or hear it
 

fltom

Well-known member
It was your point. I just addressed it.

Agreed. God only enables those who can see or hear it.
Except there is not a single word about God enabling anyone to understand the truth pointed to by the sign

rather because of the signor miracle some had believed

If you add to scripture that is eisegesis
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
The following two questions are a modern paraphrase of two questions from John Owens book "The Death of Death in the Death of Christ".

A. For whom did Christ die?

ANYONE

And

B. What did His death accomplish?

The door to resurrection life.

If Christ paid for all sins of all men without exception, yet all men are not saved, what is the reason that all are not saved?

Christ paid for any number of sins of any number of men.

The reason not all men are saved is that HE HIMSELF is the Lamb and you must be in the Lamb to be saved. Not all care to bother because they choose to love the world rather than God.
 

Chalcedon

Well-known member
ANYONE



The door to resurrection life.



Christ paid for any number of sins of any number of men.

The reason not all men are saved is that HE HIMSELF is the Lamb and you must be in the Lamb to be saved. Not all care to bother because they choose to love the world rather than God.
heterodoxy at its finest spoken like a true unitarian
 

fltom

Well-known member
No, actually He saves them based on their meritorious choice in your silly system. Christ saves no one until the proper choice is made according to your system
Sorry but you are speaking out of ignorance again

There is no merit in faith

Romans 4:4-5 (KJV)
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
Sorry but you are speaking out of ignorance again

There is no merit in faith

Romans 4:4-5 (KJV)
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness
 

Reformedguy

Well-known member
Sorry but you are speaking out of ignorance again

There is no merit in faith

Romans 4:4-5 (KJV)
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
In your dumb provisionism there is. If faith is not a gift then what is it and what are its origins?
 

fltom

Well-known member
This in no way addresses my point. Your choice has merit. Christ's death is useless without it. Remember He merely makes provision. He points the way. The rest is up to you.
Lol you are in denial

because you ignore scripture


John 3:14-15 (ESV)
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.

do you see anywhere where men are saved without faith?

you have a theology not found in scripture
 

fltom

Well-known member
What's funny is he deny the very position he tries to foist upon this room. After all what does provision mean? He is truly a mess
What's funny you try to determine what is biblical based on a man made analogy while you ignore scripture

John 3:14-15 (ESV)
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.

you want to talk about a mess consider your theology

it is always contrary to Scripture

You try to have God put his Spirit in unbelievers

The bible shows he only puts his spirit in believers

You appeal to the OT promise of circumcision of the heart as though it was a promise to unbelievers

while the bible shows the promise is for repentant Israelites

Now it appears you imagine men are guaranteed salvation without faith

again contrary to the bible

John 3:14-15 (ESV)
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.

You claim faith is a work

The bible contradicts you

Romans 4:4-5 (KJV)
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

It sems whatever the biblical position is you hold to the opposite
 

Reformedguy

Well-known member
Lol you are in denial

because you ignore scripture


John 3:14-15 (ESV)
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.

do you see anywhere where men are saved without faith?

you have a theology not found in scripture
Who said they are saved without faith? Faith is the means whereby you are saved.
 

Reformedguy

Well-known member
What's funny you try to determine what is biblical based on a man made analogy while you ignore scripture

John 3:14-15 (ESV)
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.

you want to talk about a mess consider your theology

it is always contrary to Scripture

You try to have God put his Spirit in unbelievers

The bible shows he only puts his spirit in believers

You appeal to the OT promise of circumcision of the heart as though it was a promise to unbelievers

while the bible shows the promise is for repentant Israelites

Now it appears you imagine men are guaranteed salvation without faith

again contrary to the bible

John 3:14-15 (ESV)
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.

You claim faith is a work

The bible contradicts you

Romans 4:4-5 (KJV)
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

It sems whatever the biblical position is you hold to the opposite
Ezekiel 36;26,27
 

fltom

Well-known member
In your dumb provisionism there is. If faith is not a gift then what is it and what are its origins?
Seeing as the bible does not teach saving faith is a gift that God irresistibly unilaterally causes to arise in some men while with-holding it from other that is a sound position

God enables/grants faith by his word

Romans 10:17 (KJV)
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

but that is not your theology which is truly dumb
 

fltom

Well-known member
Ezekiel 36;26,27
It does not teach what you claim

Nowhere is your idea that God puts his spirit in unbelievers

and this how the promise of the Spirit was fulfilled for Jews

Acts 2:38 (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


your absurd idea is rejected
 

Reformedguy

Well-known member
Seeing as the bible does not teach saving faith is a gift that God irresistibly unilaterally causes to arise in some men while with-holding it from other that is a sound position

God enables/grants faith by his word

Romans 10:17 (KJV)
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

but that is not your theology which is truly dumb
Sure does. See Ephesians 2:8,9.

Were back to you thanking yourself for your faith?
 
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