Foreknowledge and Foreordination

civic

Well-known member
Many Bible critics say, by knowing that Judas will betray Jesus hundreds of years in advance, that makes it foreordained to happen. As a result, human freedom is removed. Based on this reasoning, God foreordained even the sin of Adam and Eve, and thus they never had the free will to do otherwise. The Bible says that God is not the author of sin, but this would argue otherwise, contradicting Scripture. However, with this equation, sin is the result, not the result of Adam’s choice, but of God’s choosing, which should make us feel uncomfortable.

The best solution to this problem is to deny this equivalence, saying that foreknowledge does not equal foreordination.

FOREKNOWLEDGE

Does Not =

FOREORDINATION

It is better to understand it that God knows in advance what choice people will freely make. It is the free decisions of human beings that determine what foreknowledge God has of them, as opposed to the reverse.

FOREKNOWLEDGE

Determine

FREE DECISIONS

Or

FREE DECISIONS

Determine

FOREKNOWLEDGE

The foreknowledge does not determine the free decision; it is the free decisions that determine the foreknowledge. In this, we can distinguish what we might call Chronological Priority and Logical Priority.

Chronological priority would mean that Event “A” [God’s knowledge], as it relates to time, would come before Event “B” [the event God foreknows]. Thus, God’s knowledge is chronologically prior to the event that he foreknows.

CHRONOLOGICAL PRIORITY

God’s foreknowledge

Prior to

Event



However, logically speaking, the event is prior to God’s foreknowledge.

gods-foreknowledge-and-the-event




LOGICAL PRIORITY

Event

Prior to

God’s foreknowledge

In other words, the event does not happen because God foreknows it, but God foreknows the event because it will happen. The event is logically prior to the foreknowledge, so he foreknows it because it will happen, even though the foreknowledge is chronologically prior to the event.

We can see foreknowledge on this, as the foreshadowing of something. When you see the shadow of someone coming around the corner of the building, you see his or her shadow on the ground before you see the person. You know that person is about to come around the corner because of their shadow but the shadow does not determine the person, the person determines the shadow.

shadow-of-person-and-foreknowledge


God’s foreknowledge is like the foreshadowing of a future event. By seeing this foreshadowing, you know the events will happen, But the shadow does not determine the reality, the reality determines the shadow. Therefore, we should think of God’s foreknowledge as the foreshadowing of things to come. Therefore, just because God will know something will happen, this does not prejudice or remove the freedom of that happening.

In fact, if the events were to happen differently, God’s foreknowledge would be different as well. An illustration of this is, like an infallible barometer of the weather. Whatever the barometer says, because it is infallible, you know what the weather will be like. However, the barometer does not determine the weather; the weather determines the barometer’s findings. Thus, God’s foreknowledge is like an infallible barometer of the future. It lets him know what the future is going to be, but it does not constrain the future in any way. The future is going to happen anyway the free moral agent wants it to happen. However, the barometer is going to track whatever direction the future will take.

time-line-foreknowledge




Thus, those who believe that God’s foreknowledge removes the freedom of the person are mistaken. They posit a constraint upon human choices, which is really quite unintelligible. Let us use another illustration.

Suppose this is the timeline . . .



e-and-god-on-timeline-foreknowledge


Let us place an event “E” on the timeline, i.e., Judas’ betrayal of Jesus.

Let us suppose God is back here in time and by his foreknowledge (the dotted line); he knows that “E” will happen (Judas will betray Jesus). How does God’s knowledge about “E” constrain “E” from happening? How can God’s knowing “E” will occur, make “E” occur?

e-and-god-on-timeline-minus-line-for-foreknowledge




If you were to erase the line and say God does not have foreknowledge of the future, how has anything changed? How would “E” (Judas’ betrayal) be affected if you erased God’s foreknowledge of it? “E” (Judas’ betrayal) would occur just the same, it would not affect anything at all.



if-e-were-not-to-occure-foreknowledge


Therefore, the presence of God’s foreknowledge really does not prejudice anything about whether “E” will occur or not. Therefore, those who think that foreknowledge is incompatible with freedom are simply quite mistaken.

What we need to understand is this, if Judas (“E”) were not to betray Jesus; then, God would not have foreknown Judas’ betrayal (“E”) of Jesus because it would not have been on the timeline. In addition, as long as that statement is true, “E” being able to occur and not occur, God’s foreknowledge does not prejudice anything with respect to “E’s” occurrence.

Let us review without the “E” getting in our way of thinking it through. God can see the timeline similar to the way that a man in a helicopter looking down on a parade. Just as the man in the helicopter can see things before they get to the spectators, so too, God can see down the timeline to things that have not taken place yet. God knew way back in Genesis 3:15 when it was prophesied that the serpent (Satan) was to bruise Jesus and that Satan’s agent for doing so was going to be Judas Iscariot.

Just because God has the ability to see down the timeline, this does not affect Judas’ free will choice that he would come to make. On this, Andreas J. Köstenberger writes, “This does not alter the fact that Judas made his decision as a responsible agent and that he will be held accountable and judged for his evil act (see Mark 14:21 = Matt. 26:24)”[6] If we look at the diagram below, it gives us a visual aid of what God can see. Let us take persons such as myself, one who struggles with understanding deep scientific information. Just because I cannot fully understand the scientific areas of astronomy (the scientific study of the universe), this does not mean that an astronomer’s in-depth explanation of the motions, positions, sizes, composition, and behavior of astronomical objects is any less true because I am baffled. When he or she goes into an in-depth discussion of how these objects are studied and interpreted from the radiation they emit and from data gathered by interplanetary probes, I cannot just blurt out, “you are wrong” because I do not understand the how of things. However, some in science would do just that to a far more intelligent person than all of them combined, namely, God.

God has the ability to step into the timeline and tweak anything, to create a different outcome if he chooses to do so, which will then alter many future events because it will create a ripple effect in the timeline. If God were to alter anything that was already going to happen, making different choices outside of what was already going to occur in the present, it would have a ripple effect on future events. Let us use Willian Tyndale, which I believe God did step into the timeline to protect Tyndale from the Catholic Church that was hunting him down for translating the Bible from the original languages of Hebrew (OT) and Greek (NT) into English. Let us say that God did step in to alter things, allowing Tyndale to survive to the point of bringing us the first printed translation in 1526, it would have had an impact on all English translations that lied ahead in the future: the Coverdale translation of 1535, the Matthew’s Bible of 1537, The Great Bible of 1539, Cranmer’s Bible of 1540, the Geneva Bible of 1560, and, of course, the King James Version of 1611, and all other down to the Revised Version of 1881, the 1801 American Standard Version, the 1952 Revised Standard Version, the 1960-1995 New American Standard Bible, and the 2001 English Standard Version. Think of the impact of the English translations had the Catholic Church executed Tyndale in 1523. https://christianpublishinghouse.co...mOpYBuXD2Z6jcj7D3DDqvOIM40eVQJLgVctxw-XIowOhw

hope this helps !!!
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Many Bible critics say, by knowing that Judas will betray Jesus hundreds of years in advance, that makes it foreordained to happen. As a result, human freedom is removed. Based on this reasoning, God foreordained even the sin of Adam and Eve, and thus they never had the free will to do otherwise. The Bible says that God is not the author of sin, but this would argue otherwise, contradicting Scripture. However, with this equation, sin is the result, not the result of Adam’s choice, but of God’s choosing, which should make us feel uncomfortable.

The best solution to this problem is to deny this equivalence, saying that foreknowledge does not equal foreordination.

FOREKNOWLEDGE

Does Not =

FOREORDINATION

It is better to understand it that God knows in advance what choice people will freely make. It is the free decisions of human beings that determine what foreknowledge God has of them, as opposed to the reverse.

Yes that is correct
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
God “foreknew” His people (Rom. 8:29), everyone of them, intimately personally —- before time began. Foreknowledge is more than God’s omniscience or prescience. God knew His people before time! God having chosen His own before the foundation of the world, also predestinated them “ Jarrel E. Huffman

Foreknowledge in regards to Salvation as per Rom 8:29;11:2;1 Pet 1:2, has nothing to do with God looking to their actions, but their persons, knowing them intimaetly in Covenantal Love. He knows them because they are His Own 2 Tim 2:19

Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

He knows them and Loves them as His Sheep Jn 10:14

I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
God “foreknew” His people (Rom. 8:29), everyone of them, intimately personally —- before time began. Foreknowledge is more than God’s omniscience or prescience. God knew His people before time! God having chosen His own before the foundation of the world, also predestinated them “ Jarrel E. Huffman

Foreknowledge in regards to Salvation as per Rom 8:29;11:2;1 Pet 1:2, has nothing to do with God looking to their actions, but their persons, knowing them intimaetly in Covenantal Love. He knows them because they are His Own 2 Tim 2:19

Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

He knows them and Loves them as His Sheep Jn 10:14

I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
Except romans 8:29 has a context

Romans 8:28 (NASB77)
28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.

romans 8:29 is a promise to those in Romans 8:28

In context these were men who had lived and died and are now glorified

Romans 8:30 (NASB77)
30 and whom He predestined, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.


It has nothing to do with before time began

Compare with Pauls use of foreknew later in the book

Romans 11:2 (NASB77)
2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?

these were people God knew in the old covenant era
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Except romans 8:29 has a context

Romans 8:28 (NASB77)
28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.

romans 8:29 is a promise to those in Romans 8:28

In context these were men who had lived and died and are now glorified

Romans 8:30 (NASB77)
30 and whom He predestined, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.


It has nothing to do with before time began

Compare with Pauls use of foreknew later in the book

Romans 11:2 (NASB77)
2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?

these were people God knew in the old covenant era
You still dont get it, dont receive it !
 

TomFL

Well-known member
You still dont get it, dont receive it !

Hey Theo

Still think this guy is not running

Except romans 8:29 has a context

Romans 8:28 (NASB77)
28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.

romans 8:29 is a promise to those in Romans 8:28

In context these were men who had lived and died and are now glorified

Romans 8:30 (NASB77)
30 and whom He predestined, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.


It has nothing to do with before time began

Compare with Pauls use of foreknew later in the book

Romans 11:2 (NASB77)
2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?

these were people God knew in the old covenant era
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
The word foreknowledge means “to know beforehand…favorable recognition or consideration beforehand. It is used to denote the foreordained fellowship of God with the objects of His saving power”. The foreknowledge of God speaks of His affectionately knowing and choosing those He willed to love before the foundation of the world. "In the language of Scripture, something foreknown is not simply that which God was aware of prior to a certain point. Rather, it is presented as that which God gave prior consent to, that which received His favorable or special recognition. Hence, this term is reserved for those matters which God favorably, deliberately and freely chose and ordained....Used of persons, to foreknow with approbation, to foreapprove or make a previous choice of, as special people (see Rom. 11:2 cf. 1 Pet. 1:19,20).” God has chosen His people in Christ “…before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love” (Eph. 1:4), not because He saw they would be holy and without blame. “Foreknowledge and foreordination are logically coordinate. The former emphasizes the exercise of God’s wisdom and intelligence in regard to His eternal purpose and the latter emphasizes the exercise of God’s will in regard to it. What He has decreed is what He has decided." God has predestinated those whom He fore-loved to salvation. HE FOREKNEW THEM BECAUSE HE FORELOVED THEM. Therefore, they love Him because He loved them first.https://www.godsonlygospel.com/for-god-so-lovedwho-part-26
 

Yahchristian

Well-known member
The best solution to this problem is to deny this equivalence, saying that foreknowledge does not equal foreordination.

Just to clarify your understanding of those two terms, can you tell us...

1) Did God foreknow who your parents would be?

2) Did God foreordain who your parents would be?

I would answer Yes to both questions.
 

Stephen

Active member
The best solution to this problem is to deny this equivalence, saying that foreknowledge does not equal foreordination.

This statement is true under the assumption that God is powerless to change the future.
This statement is false under the assumption that God has the power to change the future.


In the first case, God is simply a powerless observer of events. He has no freedom to choose, and no freedom to make the future happen differently that it is going to happen. He is simply watching it unfold. The logical implication to the believer is that Prayer changes nothing. This God is indistinguishable from time and chance to the earthbound observer.

In the second case, if God knows everything and can change things, then everything, every evil thing and every good thing, was not only foreknown, then it is also foreordained. Things happened because God chose it. Judas didn't twist his ankle on his way to meet with the priesthood, and Jesus went to the cross because God willed it. Hitler didn't get shot or blown up in the trenches in WWI, and many millions died because God chose it. And on down the line through history. And to make it more personal, that horrible event that happened to you, that required a million things to go wrong to happen, happened, and did so when God had the power and foreknowledge to change it.

The requirement for God to have exhaustive divine foreknowledge makes God completely powerless or a monster.



The best solution is to not require God to have exhaustive divine foreknowledge. In this case, God can know the future because he MAKES the future. He has freedom to choose how to accomplish his will, and so do you.
 

Tercon

Well-known member
hope this helps !!!

No it doesn't help.

If time doesn't exist or apply to God, because time has no relevance or place in eternal things, then there is no past or future in or with God. Rather He knows and experiences everything that exists and occurs in a eternal nowness, the same way we experience our consciousness. because there is no past or future to or in a eternal being or consciousness, they are both only knowable and experienceable in the present tense (nowness). He makes believers conscious of His truth and reality, the same way all conscious beings are made aware of their own existence; they believed in and with Him and as believers we are made conscious of His truth and reality. We know and experience Him because He first believes.
If the only way and place that the truth, logic, love, existence, eternity, consciousness, morality and reality itself can be known to exist and occur is in and with a believing mind, then all of these things must have originated in and with a Believing Mind, because without a believing mind none of these things can even be known to exist or occur. If nothing can be known to exist or occur outside of a believing mind, then the basis of everything that exists and occurs must be a Believing Mind. Even a child of God's beginning started in and with a Believing Mind.

God doesn't need foreknowledge to know of anything that will exist and occur, because everything that exists and occurs gets its beginning in and with His Believing Mind, because outside of His eternal Believing Mind nothing exists or can occur to Begin with.
 

civic

Well-known member
@Tercon deja vu it’s the one trick pony believing mind found nowhere in the pages of scripture. It’s a figment or your imagination.

next…..
 

Tercon

Well-known member
@Tercon deja vu it’s the one trick pony believing mind found nowhere in the pages of scripture. It’s a figment or your imagination.

next…..

Evasion.

Belief being the ONLY way God makes His children aware of Himself isn't a figment of anyone's imagination silly. Here hundreds of verses that say that belief is the ONLY way He does anything with His children.

Everything is a matter of belief in and with God, like everything else that God has for His children it is via a believing mind.

The blind leading the blind.
blindleadigtheblind (2).jpeg
 

Sketo

Well-known member
Can God know the future actions of other Gods?


Calling All Calvinists...
 
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Tercon

Well-known member
New age Gnosticism

Your rejection of God's ONLY means of making Himself known to believers has been around a lot longer than "New age Gnosticism" silly, that spirit of pride and unbelief started in and with the adversary.
 

Sketo

Well-known member
Can God foreknow the actions of other Gods that He has nothing to do with creating or sustaining moment by moment?

Heb 1:3 says God upholds your existence (every aspect of it) at all times. This means nothing can occur apart from God’s sustaining power to begin with. (Including your thoughts/choices)
 

Tercon

Well-known member
Can God foreknow the actions of other Gods that He has nothing to do with creating or sustaining moment by moment?

Heb 1:3 says God upholds your existence (every aspect of it) at all times. This means nothing can occur apart from God’s sustaining power to begin with. (Including your thoughts/choices)

Do you know how God upholds the believer's existence and sustains His power in His children?
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
Can God know the future actions of other Gods?


Calling All Calvinists...
I listened for 10 minutes. This guy is presenting all the pre=packaged Calvinist arguments I have been hearing here for over a decade. But in his case there is no one to step in and school him with scripture.
 
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