Foreknowledge and Foreordination

T

Tercon

Well-known member
civic said:
Many Bible critics say, by knowing that Judas will betray Jesus hundreds of years in advance, that makes it foreordained to happen. As a result, human freedom is removed. Based on this reasoning, God foreordained even the sin of Adam and Eve, and thus they never had the free will to do otherwise. The Bible says that God is not the author of sin, but this would argue otherwise, contradicting Scripture. However, with this equation, sin is the result, not the result of Adam’s choice, but of God’s choosing, which should make us feel uncomfortable.

The best solution to this problem is to deny this equivalence, saying that foreknowledge does not equal foreordination.

FOREKNOWLEDGE

Does Not =

FOREORDINATION

It is better to understand it that God knows in advance what choice people will freely make. It is the free decisions of human beings that determine what foreknowledge God has of them, as opposed to the reverse.

FOREKNOWLEDGE

Determine

FREE DECISIONS

Or

FREE DECISIONS

Determine

FOREKNOWLEDGE

The foreknowledge does not determine the free decision; it is the free decisions that determine the foreknowledge. In this, we can distinguish what we might call Chronological Priority and Logical Priority.

Chronological priority would mean that Event “A” [God’s knowledge], as it relates to time, would come before Event “B” [the event God foreknows]. Thus, God’s knowledge is chronologically prior to the event that he foreknows.

CHRONOLOGICAL PRIORITY

God’s foreknowledge

Prior to

Event
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Why does One need to know something that doesn't and can't exist in and with Him? And why would God need to know something that isn't true or doesn't exist, do you think God entertains Himself pondering such nonsense?
 
Sketo

Sketo

Well-known member
Sethproton said:
I listened for 10 minutes. This guy is presenting all the pre=packaged Calvinist arguments I have been hearing here for over a decade. But in his case there is no one to step in and school him with scripture.
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He’s on Twitter @CCalvinism answering questions now, and still ripping through Leightons arguments. If you think you can do better then come help Leighton out… he definitely needs the help.

p.s. The Consistent Calvinism Podcast has just released episode 8.
 
S

Sethproton

Well-known member
Sketo said:
He’s on Twitter @CCalvinism answering questions now, and still ripping through Leightons arguments. If you think you can do better then come help Leighton out… he definitely needs the help.

p.s. The Consistent Calvinism Podcast has just released episode 8.
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Thanks. But since it appears that he is going to reiterate the arguments I have been hearing on this forum for a decade, I can stay here and get the same thing
 
Sketo

Sketo

Well-known member
Sethproton said:
Thanks. But since it appears that he is going to reiterate the arguments I have been hearing on this forum for a decade, I can stay here and get the same thing
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If God, immutably, knows that by creating you you will certainly end up in hell… how is he not determining that you will end up in hell simply by creating you?
 
S

Sethproton

Well-known member
To Sketo
I understand the logic, yet God asks each man, "Why will you choose death?"
If God created them, determining them for hell why does He offer a way out?
What is the purpose in an escape offer when God knows they won't take it?
 
Sketo

Sketo

Well-known member
Sketo said:
If God, immutably, knows that by creating you you will certainly end up in hell… how is he not determining that you will end up in hell simply by creating you?
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Sethproton said:
To Sketo
I understand the logic, yet God asks each man, "Why will you choose death?"
If God created them, determining them for hell why does He offer a way out?
What is the purpose in an escape offer when God knows they won't take it?
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How does this answer my question… unless you are suggesting that God’s, immutable, foreknowledge, before he creates, is faulty?

You also must answer your own question without destroying God’s foreknowledge in the process.

If you are not suggesting that the offer can result in something different than God’s, immutable, foreknowledge then what is the point of your question?
 
J

Johnnybgood

Well-known member
Sethproton said:
To Sketo
I understand the logic, yet God asks each man, "Why will you choose death?"
If God created them, determining them for hell why does He offer a way out?
What is the purpose in an escape offer when God knows they won't take it?
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Why would God give Moses the 10 commandments knowing not a single person could keep them ?
Is there any difference between our questions ?
 
S

Sethproton

Well-known member
Sketo said:
How does this answer my question… unless you are suggesting that God’s, immutable, foreknowledge, before he creates, is faulty?

You also must answer your own question without destroying God’s foreknowledge in the process.

If you are not suggesting that the offer can result in something different than God’s, immutable, foreknowledge then what is the point of your question?
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You are right I was not answering your question, because nobody can. You are asking about something that even if God gave you the definitive answer, you would reject it.
Instead, I was pointing out other facts in the Bible, what God has told us about Himself.
 
S

Sethproton

Well-known member
Johnnybgood said:
Why would God give Moses the 10 commandments knowing not a single person could keep them ?
Is there any difference between our questions ?
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We are given the answer to your question. The law was given so that people could understand they are sinners.
And we may be given the answer to his question as well, but I don't know what it is. My effort would be to think about what God has told us in that area and pray for further insight.
 
Theo1689

Theo1689

Well-known member
Sethproton said:
You are right I was not answering your question, because nobody can. You are asking about something that even if God gave you the definitive answer, you would reject it.
Instead, I was pointing out other facts in the Bible, what God has told us about Himself.
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A perfect example of this poster trying to completely control discussion by ignoring questions by others, only to demand we answer his questions instead.

That's not how respectful discussion works.
 
Theo1689

Theo1689

Well-known member
Sethproton said:
To Sketo
I understand the logic, yet God asks each man, "Why will you choose death?"
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I can't anywhere in the Bible where it says, "God asks each man, 'Why will you choose death'?"

What verse are you citing?

Sethproton said:
If God created them, determining them for hell why does He offer a way out?
What is the purpose in an escape offer when God knows they won't take it?
Click to expand...

Why do you ASSUME that "why will you choose death?" is INTENDED as "an escape offer"?
 
S

Sethproton

Well-known member
Theo1689 said:
I can't anywhere in the Bible where it says, "God asks each man, 'Why will you choose death'?"

What verse are you citing?



Why do you ASSUME that "why will you choose death?" is INTENDED as "an escape offer"?
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I was not quoting a verse directly, but was referencing Eze 33:11 where you can see the concept of choice offered
 
Theo1689

Theo1689

Well-known member
Sethproton said:
I was not quoting a verse directly,
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Well, maybe you should pay better attention when you post, especially if you want people to respond to what you bring up.

Sethproton said:
but was referencing Eze 33:11 where you can see the concept of choice offered
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Ezek. 33:11 Say to them, As I live, declares the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live; turn back, turn back from your evil ways, for why will you die, O house of Israel?

Okay, let's compare....

YOU said: "yet God asks each man, "Why will you choose death?"

1) Ezek. 33:11 is about ISRAEL, not about "each man" in the world. So you are WRONG.

2) Ezek. 33:11 does NOT say "choose death". You ASSUME the idea of "choosing", as it is NOT in the text. So you are WRONG again.

3) Ezek. 33:11 says NOTHING about any "offer". So you are WRONG yet AGAIN.


This is why you never cite or quote your proof-texts, Seth.
Because you know that if you do, we can see that they do NOT say what you falsely CLAIM they say.
 
S

Sethproton

Well-known member
Theo1689 said:
Well, maybe you should pay better attention when you post, especially if you want people to respond to what you bring up.



Ezek. 33:11 Say to them, As I live, declares the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live; turn back, turn back from your evil ways, for why will you die, O house of Israel?

Okay, let's compare....

YOU said: "yet God asks each man, "Why will you choose death?"

1) Ezek. 33:11 is about ISRAEL, not about "each man" in the world. So you are WRONG.

2) Ezek. 33:11 does NOT say "choose death". You ASSUME the idea of "choosing", as it is NOT in the text. So you are WRONG again.

3) Ezek. 33:11 says NOTHING about any "offer". So you are WRONG yet AGAIN.


This is why you never cite or quote your proof-texts, Seth.
Because you know that if you do, we can see that they do NOT say what you falsely CLAIM they say.
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Turning back away from death is a choice that God is calling them to take.
 
Theo1689

Theo1689

Well-known member
Sethproton said:
Turning back away from death is a choice that God is calling them to take.
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That is YOUR assumption and YOUR personal opinion.

That is NOT what Scripture says.

You can believe whatever you want, Seth.
But A's and C's based our beliefs on SCRIPTURE.
 
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