Foreknowledge and Foreordination

[Sketo]

If God, immutably, knows that by creating you you will certainly end up in hell… how is he not determining that you will end up in hell simply by creating you?

That is a great question .

I must give credit where credit is due... this is a question that is from the creator of The Consistent Calvinism Podcast... Episode 1... time stamp 3:11:40

I presented it here because Sethproton stated...

Thanks. But since it appears that he is going to reiterate the arguments I have been hearing on this forum for a decade, I can stay here and get the same thing

So I posted his question to see if his statement was accurate... and you have read the results for yourself.

That "time stamp" is the beginning of multiple questions that you would find interesting. At least listen from that point and let us know what you think.

 

[Sketo]

If God, immutably, knows that by creating you you will certainly end up in hell… how is he not determining that you will end up in hell simply by creating you?

You are right I was not answering your question, because nobody can. You are asking about something that even if God gave you the definitive answer, you would reject it.
Instead, I was pointing out other facts in the Bible, what God has told us about Himself.

So just because you dont want to answer the question, with the only logical answer, that must mean "nobody can answer the question"?

The answer to the question is very simple!

The only "choice" that can determine a different outcome, for those who God, immutably, foreknows will certainly end in hell, is God's "choice" not to create them in the first place.

Now the fact, that God did determine to create them, knowing that they will certainly end in hell for all eternity, is proof that they serve a different purpose for God, then to simply "offer" them salvation.

 

[Sethproton]

Nope.

1) He did NOT say "every man" (he said, "O house of ISRAEL").

2) He did NOT say "choose".

3) He did NOT say "offer".

You can add to Scripture all you want, Seth, but I advise against it. God tells me there are dire consequences for adding to God's word.

It is within reason to claim that God only meant it to Israel, but that denies that all scripture is profitable.
But it is unreasonable to deny that the verse carries an offer and an invitation to choose.
That is what the verse is about

 

[Sethproton]

So just because you dont want to answer the question, with the only logical answer, that must mean "nobody can answer the question"?

The answer to the question is very simple!

The only "choice" that can determine a different outcome, for those who God, immutably, foreknows will certainly end in hell, is God's "choice" not to create them in the first place.

Now the fact, that God did determine to create them, knowing that they will certainly end in hell for all eternity, is proof that they serve a different purpose for God, then to simply "offer" them salvation.

You are filling in many blanks with your own assumptions. But your assumptions do not align with much of scripture about God's love and fairness.
Also, you fall into the standard Calvinist idea about what God foreknows, sets something in place. If He knows it, then it is predestined. Sounds reasonable in some ways, but ignores the meanings of the words.

 

[Sketo]

You are filling in many blanks with your own assumptions. But your assumptions do not align with much of scripture about God's love and fairness.

On Provisionism God creates someone knowing with certainty they will end up in hell, and it wasn’t up to the person whether or not to be created. That sounds terrible and unfair.

Can Provisionism explain how it makes any sense to say God “loves” the people He creates knowing they will never accept Him and are doomed for destruction? Wouldn’t it be more “loving” to just not create them in the first place?

 

[Sketo]

But it is unreasonable to deny that the verse carries an offer and an invitation to choose.
That is what the verse is about

It is unreasonable to deny God’s foreknowledge by suggesting that the “choice” could be “other than” God’s foreknowledge.

Is that what you are suggesting by this verse?

If not then what is the point of your statement above?

 

[Sketo]

Also, you fall into the standard Calvinist idea about what God foreknows, sets something in place. If He knows it, then it is predestined. Sounds reasonable in some ways, but ignores the meanings of the words.

Anyone can know the end of a movie after seeing/learning it first, but only the Author/Determiner of his own movie can know the end before seeing and learning!

How does your God know the ending of his own creation before he creates?

There are only 2 ways God, immutably, foreknows the future...

Either God determined the future suggesting his knowledge originated from within himself or...

God “learned” the future from an external source suggesting his knowledge derived outside himself...

Which do you hold?

 

[Sethproton]

nclusionsProvisionism God creates someone knowing with certainty they will end up in hell, and it wasn’t up to the person whether or not to be created. That sounds terrible and unfair.

Can Provisionism explain how it makes any sense to say God “loves” the people He creates knowing they will never accept Him and are doomed for destruction? Wouldn’t it be more “lYour first senetence sounds oving” to just not create them in the first place?

Yes, I agree, your first sentence presents a picture that is unfair.
But your second point finds you in disagreement with God.
How do we reconcile the two?
The first step is to trust that God means what He says: He loves the world. He operates with loving kindness.
Can you admit that your knowledge of God is severely limited? You do not have a clue about what most of God does (None of us do)
You are making conclusions without most of the facts.

If you are a Christian, I suggest you seek God about this for an answer that makes sense to you. Along with that engaging in debate here seems a profitable idea.

 

[Sethproton]

Anyone can know the end of a movie after seeing/learning it first, but only the Author/Determiner of his own movie can know the end before seeing and learning!

How does your God know the ending of his own creation before he creates?

There are only 2 ways God, immutably, foreknows the future...

Either God determined the future suggesting his knowledge originated from within himself or...

God “learned” the future from an external source suggesting his knowledge derived outside himself...

Which do you hold?

When you speak of what God can do and you give choices A and B, your limited understanding )like all of us) is leading the way.
There are no external sources outside of God. which I would imagine you know and there is at least a third choice: God does not learn anything, He knows everything, whether he determined it or allowed it to unfold.

 

[Sethproton]

It is unreasonable to deny God’s foreknowledge by suggesting that the “choice” could be “other than” God’s foreknowledge.

Is that what you are suggesting by this verse?

If not then what is the point of your statement above?

The purpose of the verse is to show God giving a choice and allowing Israel to make their own choice

 

[Sethproton]

It is unreasonable to deny God’s foreknowledge by suggesting that the “choice” could be “other than” God’s foreknowledge.

Is that what you are suggesting by this verse?

If not then what is the point of your statement above?

We both agree that the choice will be what God foreknows it will be.
We disagree on how God knows this. I doubt in the realm we live in we will ever understand how God foreknows what a man with free will, will do.

 

[Sketo]

When you speak of what God can do and you give choices A and B, your limited understanding )like all of us) is leading the way.
There are no external sources outside of God. which I would imagine you know and there is at least a third choice: God does not learn anything, He knows everything, whether he determined it or allowed it to unfold.

To assume that God “allowing it to unfold” is not him determining it to happen is logically insane. If God has the ultimate power to stop or not stop something from happening, then by choosing to allow it He is determining that it happen.

 

[Sketo]

We both agree that the choice will be what God foreknows it will be.
We disagree on how God knows this. I doubt in the realm we live in we will ever understand how God foreknows what a man with free will, will do.

That is because you are suggesting a logical impossibility!

At what point, before or after creation, is mans will “free” to do “other than” God’s, immutable, foreknowledge?

If it is not then in what sense is mans will “free”?

 

[Sethproton]

To assume that God “allowing it to unfold” is not him determining it to happen is logically insane. If God has the ultimate power to stop or not stop something from happening, then by choosing to allow it He is determining that it happen.

I understand your logic, but that is not how the Bible describes what happens. Will you value your logic above what the Word says?

 

[Sethproton]

That is because you are suggesting a logical impossibility!

At what point, before or after creation, is mans will “free” to do “other than” God’s, immutable, foreknowledge?

If it is not then in what sense is mans will “free”?

It is a misrepresentaion of the word foreknowledge to say it controls our actions. That is one of the wonders of God that His foreknowledge allows free will and still knows

 

[Sketo]

It is a misrepresentaion of the word foreknowledge to say it controls our actions. That is one of the wonders of God that His foreknowledge allows free will and still knows

You have already affirmed that Gods foreknowledge is not determined by an external source therefore what is Gods foreknowledge based on?

 

[Tercon]

To Sketo
I understand the logic, yet God asks each man, "Why will you choose death?"
If God created them, determining them for hell why does He offer a way out?
What is the purpose in an escape offer when God knows they won't take it?

God doesn't know nor experience unbelief, because lack of belief or a lack of something (lack of belief in this case) does not exist in His truth and reality, belief is a state of mind, but unbelief is just ignorance. And since it is ONLY belief that can make the truth occur in reality, then unbelief has no way or place to occur in God's reality.

 

[Sketo]

Yes, I agree, your first sentence presents a picture that is unfair.
But your second point finds you in disagreement with God.
How do we reconcile the two?

That is not an answer to my question. My question assumed you believe God knows the future. Since you do, once again, how is it "loving" for God to create people he knows are doomed for destruction from the womb?

 

[Sethproton]

You have already affirmed that Gods foreknowledge is not determined by an external source therefore what is Gods foreknowledge based on?

How can it be based on anything other than Himself and His knowledge, What did you have in mind?

 

[Sethproton]

That is not an answer to my question. My question assumed you believe God knows the future. Since you do, once again, how is it "loving" for God to create people he knows are doomed for destruction from the womb?

The Bible does not give us a logical/intellectual teaching on how God can condemn someone He loves, but we know it is true.
So there is no answer for you in the way you will accept it.