Foreknowledge and Foreordination

Sethproton

Well-known member
You have already affirmed that Gods foreknowledge is not determined by an external source therefore what is Gods foreknowledge based on?
How can it be based on anything other than Himself and His knowledge, What did you have in mind?
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
That is not an answer to my question. My question assumed you believe God knows the future. Since you do, once again, how is it "loving" for God to create people he knows are doomed for destruction from the womb?
The Bible does not give us a logical/intellectual teaching on how God can condemn someone He loves, but we know it is true.
So there is no answer for you in the way you will accept it.
 

Sketo

Well-known member
The Bible does not give us a logical/intellectual teaching on how God can condemn someone He loves, but we know it is true.
So there is no answer for you in the way you will accept it.

Sence God knows before he creates wouldn’t it be more “loving” to just not create them in the first place?
 
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Sketo

Well-known member
you fall into the standard Calvinist idea about what God foreknows, sets something in place. If He knows it, then it is predestined. Sounds reasonable in some ways, but ignores the meanings of the words.
It does not ignore the meaning of the word “foreknowledge” it simply states God knows before but the question is How does God know before he creates?

If you can’t justify your own position without appealing to mystery then you have no grounds to argue against other claims that can be biblically justified.

This is why I posted “movie Author/determiner” analogy to bring out your “3rd option” claim that you are unable to justify from scripture! You claim it but you can not justify it!

Anyone can know the end of a movie after seeing/learning it first, but only the Author/Determiner of his own movie can know the end before seeing and learning!

How does your God know the ending of his own creation before he creates?

There are only 2 ways God, immutably, foreknows the future...

Either God determined the future suggesting his knowledge originated from within himself or...

God “learned” the future from an external source suggesting his knowledge derived outside himself...

Which do you hold?

There are many scriptures that justify that God determines the future and this is the biblical answer to How God knows the future immutably! If you are going to deny this then you must justify your claim.

Psalm 139:16 (ESV)
Your eyes saw my unformed substance;
in your book were written, every one of them,
the days that were formed for me,

when as yet there was none of them.
 
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brightfame52

Well-known member
Gods foreknowledge consists in that He foreknows what He is going to cause to happen. If He foresaw that someone was going to believe in Christ, its because He purposed to cause that person to believe in Christ. God is never passive in His knowledge of things, seeing Hes the first cause of all things Isa 46:9-10

9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

Not only does God do all His pleasure, so does His creatures ! Rev 4:11


Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
 

Sketo

Well-known member
The purpose of the verse is to show God giving a choice and allowing Israel to make their own choice
The reference point is God’s, immutable, foreknowledge so How does God “allow” Israel to do something “other than” what God already knows they will certainly do? Your statement denies Gods foreknowledge.

God’s foreknowledge is God’s knowledge of the results of his own actions.

Act 15:18 (KJV) Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
Sence God knows before he creates wouldn’t it be more “loving” to just not create them in the first place?
yes, with your limited knowledge about God and His plans, your statement could make sense. But I wonder what is behind your question.
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
The reference point is God’s, immutable, foreknowledge so How does God “allow” Israel to do something “other than” what God already knows they will certainly do? Your statement denies Gods foreknowledge.

God’s foreknowledge is God’s knowledge of the results of his own actions.

Act 15:18 (KJV) Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
Again, foreknowledge is not control. This should be plain to you. Knowing about something does not control it.
I know the sun will become visible tomorrow, but that does not mean I am controlling the sun,

Your other idea does add to the complexity, God put everything in motion. yes, But after that is where your argument becomes non-biblical.
he knows His works because He made them, but He knows the actions of men because...we are not told how He does that
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
God doesn't know nor experience unbelief, because lack of belief or a lack of something (lack of belief in this case) does not exist in His truth and reality, belief is a state of mind, but unbelief is just ignorance. And since it is ONLY belief that can make the truth occur in reality, then unbelief has no way or place to occur in God's reality.
God does not experience unbelief nor belief. God does not have faith, He has knowledge. faith is tapping into the unknown, God knows everything, therefore He has not faith. He has no need for faith, he see everything without it,
 

Sketo

Well-known member
yes, with your limited knowledge about God and His plans, your statement could make sense. But I wonder what is behind your question.
It’s very simple. God created them for a purpose other than saving them from an eternity in hell! If his purpose was to save them then he could have simply not created them in the first place.
 

Sketo

Well-known member
I know the sun will become visible tomorrow, but that does not mean I am controlling the sun
This would only be true if there was something occurring that God had nothing to do with. God is the creator and sustainer of all things. There is nothing that exists or continues to exist that God has nothing to do with. God foreknows the results of his own acitons.

Hebrews 1:3 states “God upholds the universe by the word of his power.”
This means that God IS “controlling the sun”!

Colossians 1:17 states “And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
“All things” here includes “the sun”!

Your other idea does add to the complexity, God put everything in motion. yes, But after that is where your argument becomes non-biblical.
This statement suggests a form of semi-Deistic Dualism!

This statement is unbiblical and is also refuted by Hebrews 1:3 and Colossians 1:17 above!
he knows His works because He made them, but He knows the actions of men because...we are not told how He does that
Heb 1:3 says God upholds your existence (every aspect of it) at all times. This means nothing can occur apart from God’s sustaining power to begin with. (Including your thoughts/choices)

Acts 17:28 states “‘In him we live and move and have our being’”

When you realize that there are 2 categories then you can understand “how he does it”.

God is the, Ultimatetranscendent/creator/sustainer of all things, and man is the storyline/created/dependent character.

For example:

If you were to ask “Why does it rain?” There are 2 answers.
1st is that the sun evaporates water into the air, condensing and falling back down.
The 2nd answer is that the Bible says God brings the rain. This is because he's in control of all those things.
There are 2 categories and thus 2 explanations for everything that comes to pass!
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
It’s very simple. God created them for a purpose other than saving them from an eternity in hell! If his purpose was to save them then he could have simply not created them in the first place.
What scriptures are you referring to that teach you these ideas?
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
This would only be true if there was something occurring that God had nothing to do with. God is the creator and sustainer of all things. There is nothing that exists or continues to exist that God has nothing to do with. God foreknows the results of his own acitons.

Hebrews 1:3 states “God upholds the universe by the word of his power.”
This means that God IS “controlling the sun”!

Colossians 1:17 states “And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
“All things” here includes “the sun”!


This statement suggests a form of semi-Deistic Dualism!
g
This statement is unbiblical and is also refuted by Hebrews 1:3 and Colossians 1:17 above!
o go to hell and that
Heb 1:3 says God upholds your existence (every aspect of it) at all times. This means nothing can occur apart from God’s sustaining power to begin with. (Including your thoughts/choices)

Acts 17:28 states “‘In him we live and move and have our being’”

When you realize that there are 2 categories then you can understand “how he does it”.

God is the, Ultimatetranscendent/creator/sustainer of all things, and man is the storyline/created/dependent character.

For example:

If you were to ask “Why does it rain?” There are 2 answers.
1st is that the sun evaporates water into the air, condensing and falling back down.
The 2nd answer is that the Bible says God brings the rain. This is because he's in control of all those things.
There are 2 categories and thus 2 explanations for everything that comes to pass!
It seems impossib;e to get you to examine anything you are saying.
Maybe if you just state your underlying premise that is driving this chat?
Is it that God created people to go to hell and that he never loved them
If so why are these ideas not stated directly in the Bible?
 

SovereignGrace

Well-known member
It seems impossib;e to get you to examine anything you are saying.
Maybe if you just state your underlying premise that is driving this chat?
Is it that God created people to go to hell and that he never loved them
If so why are these ideas not stated directly in the Bible?
Au contraire mon frere! There are MANY vss stating to these, you just refuse to believe them. Look them up. The bible is replete with them. Start digging.
 

Sketo

Well-known member
It’s very simple. God created them for a purpose other than saving them from an eternity in hell! If his purpose was to save them then he could have simply not created them in the first place.

What scriptures are you referring to that teach you these ideas?

Proverbs 16:4 states “The LORD has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble.
 

Tercon

Well-known member
God does not experience unbelief nor belief. God does not have faith, He has knowledge. faith is tapping into the unknown, God knows everything, therefore He has not faith. He has no need for faith, he see everything without it,

In reality no-one experiences unbelief per se, as unbelief is just ignorance of the truth and reality.
Also, if you say God doesn't believe, then you make Him a unbeliever, because if He doesn't believe He lacks belief and that would make Him a unbeliever. So, God must believe.
And if your faith doesn't originate in and with God, then from whom or where does it originate?
And if God knows everything and no-one can know ANY truth or reality without belief, then God creates everything in and with belief and a believer's belief must originate in and with Him. Therefore, faith must originate in and with God, and without Our faith He can't even know you. And not knowing, but ignorance of how the Father teaches and gives His children everything is a real weakness. You are unequipped for the battle ahead.

A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:
For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes. (Matthew 7:18-29)
 

Johnnybgood

Well-known member
God does not experience unbelief nor belief. God does not have faith, He has knowledge. faith is tapping into the unknown, God knows everything, therefore He has not faith. He has no need for faith, he see everything without it,
Yes you are right I’m having a hard time understanding the concept that God believes. Is there a passage for this concept that you are aware of ?
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
Au contraire mon frere! There are MANY vss stating to these, you just refuse to believe them. Look them up. The bible is replete with them. Start digging.
your post confirms that you know of no verses teaching that God created (thru procreation) people who He hated and purposed for hell. If you can support that scripturally, you should,
 
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