Foreknowledge and Foreordination

G

guest1

Guest
Sethproton said:
Ok, in another thread I asked you if you're a Calvinist. But no calvinists here agrees with anything I say
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I'm not a calvinist and I never agree with you so what gives you the slightest idea he is one ?

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J

JDS

Well-known member
civic said:
Many Bible critics say, by knowing that Judas will betray Jesus hundreds of years in advance, that makes it foreordained to happen. As a result, human freedom is removed. Based on this reasoning, God foreordained even the sin of Adam and Eve, and thus they never had the free will to do otherwise. The Bible says that God is not the author of sin, but this would argue otherwise, contradicting Scripture. However, with this equation, sin is the result, not the result of Adam’s choice, but of God’s choosing, which should make us feel uncomfortable
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Here is a simple way to understand the foreknowledge of God.

It is a NT concept.

Foreknowledge does not lock God into the present like we men are.

God is omnipresent. He is separate from time and exists outside of it and sees all events at one time. This is the reason he cannot take an unsaved sinner to heaven. God would see him sinning always. A sinner must have his sins washed away and he must have perfect sinless righteousness to be in the presence of God. He created the lake of fire where he sends sinners and it is the only place he has chosen to not be present and he forgets the inhabitants of that place.

Therefore, foreknowledge is in the context of time as it relates to a specific purpose of his will. It is a reference to the people he foreknew before the NT era, which is his own people Israel with whom he had covenant relationship with. He consider this people collectively as his son. It was his purpose to save them as one person. He has one name for them collectively. It is Jacob.

God did not foreknow a single Calvinist in the sense that foreknowledge is defined by the scriptures. The fact that Jacob did not get saved collectively when Jesus first came does not mean they will never get saved collectively because they certainly will. And it will be because they as a people (those that are left) will choose Jesus Christ to be their saviour. It is written. It is a future surety.

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.


26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:


27 For this is my covenant unto them (Israel), when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they (Israel) are enemies for your (gentiles - remember he started speaking to gentiles in V 13 of this chapter) sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's (the patriarchs of Israel) sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye (gentiles) in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief (how could anybody not understand this?):
31 Even so have these (of Israel) also now (in the NT era) not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. (this is speaking of the collective in the now)


Isn't it a good time for Calvinists to drop this ignorant worship of a religious system that does not allow for the proper definition of words like forknowledge that applies only in the context of Israel, the people?
 
Beloved Daughter

Beloved Daughter

Super Member
JDS said:
Here is a simple way to understand the foreknowledge of God.

It is a NT concept.

Foreknowledge does not lock God into the present like we men are.

God is omnipresent. He is separate from time and exists outside of it and sees all events at one time. This is the reason he cannot take an unsaved sinner to heaven. God would see him sinning always. A sinner must have his sins washed away and he must have perfect sinless righteousness to be in the presence of God. He created the lake of fire where he sends sinners and it is the only place he has chosen to not be present and he forgets the inhabitants of that place.

Therefore, foreknowledge is in the context of time as it relates to a specific purpose of his will. It is a reference to the people he foreknew before the NT era, which is his own people Israel with whom he had covenant relationship with. He consider this people collectively as his son. It was his purpose to save them as one person. He has one name for them collectively. It is Jacob.

God did not foreknow a single Calvinist in the sense that foreknowledge is defined by the scriptures. The fact that Jacob did not get saved collectively when Jesus first came does not mean they will never get saved collectively because they certainly will. And it will be because they as a people (those that are left) will choose Jesus Christ to be their saviour. It is written. It is a future surety.

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.


26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:


27 For this is my covenant unto them (Israel), when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they (Israel) are enemies for your (gentiles - remember he started speaking to gentiles in V 13 of this chapter) sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's (the patriarchs of Israel) sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye (gentiles) in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief (how could anybody not understand this?):
31 Even so have these (of Israel) also now (in the NT era) not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. (this is speaking of the collective in the now)


Isn't it a good time for Calvinists to drop this ignorant worship of a religious system that does not allow for the proper definition of words like forknowledge that applies only in the context of Israel, the people?
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Not true. Just more hyper-dispensationalism. Maybe you should drop what you believe.

 
G

guest1

Guest
JDS said:
Here is a simple way to understand the foreknowledge of God.

It is a NT concept.

Foreknowledge does not lock God into the present like we men are.

God is omnipresent. He is separate from time and exists outside of it and sees all events at one time. This is the reason he cannot take an unsaved sinner to heaven. God would see him sinning always. A sinner must have his sins washed away and he must have perfect sinless righteousness to be in the presence of God. He created the lake of fire where he sends sinners and it is the only place he has chosen to not be present and he forgets the inhabitants of that place.

Therefore, foreknowledge is in the context of time as it relates to a specific purpose of his will. It is a reference to the people he foreknew before the NT era, which is his own people Israel with whom he had covenant relationship with. He consider this people collectively as his son. It was his purpose to save them as one person. He has one name for them collectively. It is Jacob.

God did not foreknow a single Calvinist in the sense that foreknowledge is defined by the scriptures. The fact that Jacob did not get saved collectively when Jesus first came does not mean they will never get saved collectively because they certainly will. And it will be because they as a people (those that are left) will choose Jesus Christ to be their saviour. It is written. It is a future surety.

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.


26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:


27 For this is my covenant unto them (Israel), when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they (Israel) are enemies for your (gentiles - remember he started speaking to gentiles in V 13 of this chapter) sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's (the patriarchs of Israel) sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye (gentiles) in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief (how could anybody not understand this?):
31 Even so have these (of Israel) also now (in the NT era) not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. (this is speaking of the collective in the now)


Isn't it a good time for Calvinists to drop this ignorant worship of a religious system that does not allow for the proper definition of words like forknowledge that applies only in the context of Israel, the people?
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They worship God not a system any more fallacious arguments you would like to share with us today ?
 
ReverendRV

ReverendRV

Well-known member
This will probably stir up a Hornet's nest, but it probably needs to be done; God's Foreknowledge IS Open Theism....
 
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ReverendRV

ReverendRV

Well-known member
civic said:
For quite a few of the non C’s.
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It probably deserves its own Thread...

You know me, I take 'Shared Beliefs' and use them against people. Arminians and Provisionists share the Belief in Election via Foreknowledge. Some Provisionists are Open Theists; LWF said there is room for them in Provisionism. Arminians and Calvinists are against Open Theism. So how can Arminians share the Core Belief of Open Theism, and oppose Open Theism at the same time? A core Belief that God needs to experientially Learn something...
 
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J

JDS

Well-known member
Beloved Daughter said:
Not true. Just more hyper-dispensationalism. Maybe you should drop what you believe.
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I have to ask myself sometimes. Do these hyper Calvinists know the meaning of words? Have they ever read the OT and why do they think there is not a single one of what my KJV calls their heathen ancestors who were ever called the elect in those days? There are 4 answers to this. They don’t think. They don’t reason. They don’t use logic, and they do not believe words.

What stuns me is that Paul, the apostle to us gentiles, tried his best to instruct us and the Jews about what he was doing by writing his letter to the Romans that he penned in AD 58, long after God had started saving gentiles by faith in the gospel of Christ, 18 years to be exact and Calvinists can’t understand a sentence of it. Someone might want to know if this saving of the gentiles meant that he had cast away his people whom he foreknew and with whom he had made many covenant promises that did not concern the gentiles directly.

I am simply stunned by this. It makes so much sense by a simple read that surely one would have to conclude that Calvinists have opted to believe words from this text that are not there and choose to not believe the ones that are. It is incredible to me. Paul actually tells us in this passage I am going to quote who is foreknown and he leaves no doubt who it is.

Romans 10:19-21
19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

Romans 11:1-2
1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew.

Paul got saved in AD 37. He wrote the above quote in AD 58. His salvation did not change him from being an Israelite if you know anything about tenses. If you got saved it did not change you from being a gentile. It changed some things about you but not that.

As you can see, foreknowing is in the context of Israel in the past. Surely that is clear to you.
 
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S

Sethproton

Well-known member
Beloved Daughter said:
Not true. Just more hyper-dispensationalism. Maybe you should drop what you believe.

Click to expand...
Look of the definition of the Greek word. It does not say what you are saying. It is simply define as knowing beforehand. Nothing in the definition says that it is only about people. This is a false definition, devised by calvinist, to cover some of their bad doctrine.
 
S

Sethproton

Well-known member
JDS said:
I have to ask myself sometimes. Do these hyper Calvinists know the meaning of words? Have they ever read the OT and why do they think there is not a single one of what my KJV calls their heathen ancestors ever called the elect in those days? There are 4 answers to this. They don’t think. They don’t reason. They don’t use logic, and they do not believe words.

What stuns me is that Paul, the apostle to us gentiles, tried his best to instruct us and the Jews about what he was doing in his letter to the Romans that he wrote in AD 58, long after he had started saving gentiles by faith in the gospel of Christ, 18 years to be exact and Calvinists can’t understand a sentence of it. Someone might want to know if this saving of the gentiles meant that he had cast away his people whom he foreknew and with whom had made many covenant promises that did not concern the gentiles.

I am simply stunned by this. It makes so much sense that surely one would have to conclude that Calvinists have opted to believe words from this text that are not there and not believe the ones that are. It is incredible to me. Paul actually tells us in the this passage I am going to quote who is foreknown and he leaves no doubt who it is.

Romans 10:19-21
19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

Romans 11:1-2
1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew.

Paul got saved in AD 37. He wrote the above quote in AD 58. His salvation did not change him from being an Israelite if you know anything about tenses. If you got saved it did not change you from being a gentile. It changed some things about you but not that.

As you can see, foreknowing is in the context of Israel in the past. Surely that is clear to you.
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You are correct that Calvinism demands that words be redefined in order to preserve their doctrine, And they can be shown Greek definitions and verses all day and nothing breaks thru. But keep praying and trying
 
SovereignGrace

SovereignGrace

Well-known member
Sethproton said:
How many times here have we heard that dodge. When you do not know any verses that support you, then you act superior and put if off on the other poster. Old trick and I am not a new dog.
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They are there and I know exactly where they are. Now quit being lazy and do your homework. I’m not doing it for you. It’s there, please dig for them.
 
S

Sethproton

Well-known member
SovereignGrace said:
They are there and I know exactly where they are. Now quit being lazy and do your homework. I’m not doing it for you. It’s there, please dig for them.
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You trully do not understand that you have twisted scripture to say what you want, but you think I will be able to go to scripture and twist it the way you do to get your conclusions. No, I doubt that you do.
The fact is you have no scripture, you know it, but you want to put it off on me.
We get enough games here everyday, please don't add to them.
If you actually have even one scriptural point, make it.

or on the other hand keep playing dodge ball until the topic is forgotten and you are relieved of having to support your claim,
 
S

Sethproton

Well-known member
JDS said:
No you don’t, civic. Your foundation is wrong. It affects the whole structure.
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We see people here, won over by the apparent brilliance of Calvinism, who then go on to conform the Bible to match what they have embraced,
But we are all prone to that if we are not careful, and should listen to many counselors to keep sound
 
Beloved Daughter

Beloved Daughter

Super Member
Sethproton said:
Look of the definition of the Greek word. It does not say what you are saying. It is simply define as knowing beforehand. Nothing in the definition says that it is only about people. This is a false definition, devised by calvinist, to cover some of their bad doctrine.
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It seems that you are mistaken once again. What's the point of exchanging in conversation when you demonstrate that you aren't willing to consider what the scriptures actually say.

My time is better spent proclaiming the gospel to those who are elected.
 
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