Foreknowledge and Foreordination

Sethproton

Well-known member
No you don’t, civic. Your foundation is wrong. It affects the whole structure.
We see people here, won over by the apparent brilliance of Calvinism, who then go on to conform the Bible to match what they have embraced,
But we are all prone to that if we are not careful, and should listen to many counselors to keep sound
 

Beloved Daughter

Super Member
Look of the definition of the Greek word. It does not say what you are saying. It is simply define as knowing beforehand. Nothing in the definition says that it is only about people. This is a false definition, devised by calvinist, to cover some of their bad doctrine.
It seems that you are mistaken once again. What's the point of exchanging in conversation when you demonstrate that you aren't willing to consider what the scriptures actually say.

My time is better spent proclaiming the gospel to those who are elected.
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
It seems that you are mistaken once again. What's the point of exchanging in conversation when you demonstrate that you aren't willing to consider what the scriptures actually say.

My time is better spent proclaiming the gospel to those who are elected.
Was your dodge intentional, or just because of habit.
I addressed the meaning of the word in a Greek lexicon, you switched to what the scriptures say.
Let me suggest to you if you do not know what words mean, then you also will not know what scripture is saying
 

Beloved Daughter

Super Member
Was your dodge intentional, or just because of habit.
I addressed the meaning of the word in a Greek lexicon, you switched to what the scriptures say.
Let me suggest to you if you do not know what words mean, then you also will not know what scripture is saying

Here is a thought for you to consider. If you misrepresent what I have said here and likely hundreds of others I have saved. I will report you. Count on it.
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
In his sentence "Nothing in the definition says that it is only about people." Is he suggesting that perhaps Paul was preaching to four legged creatures? It gets stranger and stranger.
The meaning of predestine has little to do with who he is talking to, and more to do with what he is talking about? Edit
 
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JDS

Well-known member
New age Gnosticism



Matthew 16:15-17
He[Jesus]said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” 16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17 And Jesus said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.


How does Matt 16:15-17 prove Calvinism when the word reveal means to make manifest or to make known. Some perfectly righteous man that Peter traveled with who went around doing good, casting out devils, healing people, and who has the power to interrupt funerals by raising the dead as he passed by has got to enter into the revealing equation some way. No?

Does this make any sense to you, civic? I hope it helps you. Who is really the Gnostic?
 

civic

Well-known member
How does Matt 16:15-17 prove Calvinism when the word reveal means to make manifest or to make known. Some perfectly righteous man that Peter traveled with who went around doing good, casting out devils, healing people, and who has the power to interrupt funerals by raising the dead as he passed by has got to enter into the revealing equation some way. No?

Does this make any sense to you, civic? I hope it helps you. Who is really the Gnostic?
You are clueless and have no idea about the person I responded to jds. You are grasping at straws.
 

Tercon

Well-known member
Don't call God an unbeliever on my behalf.

Actually you are the one who thinks God is a unbeliever and not me.
Remember, I am the one who says God is a believer.
So, if you say “god doesn't believe” in other words god lacks belief, then you have made god a unbeliever. That's how the truth and logic works together to show you the implication of your insisting that "God doesn't believe".

And if I believe that God is a believer, then it definitely is not me who is implying that "god is a unbeliever". And if you are diametrically opposed and say the opposite is true of what I believe and I believe 'God believes', then you have made god and yourself unbelievers.
In other words you don't understand how God is God, in that you don't know or understand how He is God and how He manifests Himself in and to us, He makes us a part and parcel of His reality.


let me explain the concept again.

You have not explained anything to me, all you have done is show me how God isn't known to you, because you don't know nor understand His way.

Faith is the substance of things not seen.

Faith is the believers belief in God.

God sees and knows everything.

Actually God is a little more involved in and with His creation than that. God knows everything because His believing mind is where all truth and reality originates. And without His believing mind nothing can exist or occur, because outside of a believing mind no truth nor reality can be known to exist or occur.

Therefore, it is impossible for Him to have faith in the unseen.

The very reason He knows everything is because He does believe and not because He doesn't believe silly.

Okay, does God tell us to believe or disbelieve?
 

Tercon

Well-known member
Do you know of any verse attributing faith as an attribute that God possesses?

If you don't attribute your faith to God, then just to what or whom do you attribute your faith?

And now apart from law hath the righteousness of God been manifested, testified to by the law and the prophets, and the righteousness of God [is] through the faith of Jesus Christ to all, and upon all those believing, -- for there is no difference, for all did sin, and are come short of the glory of God -- being declared righteous freely by His grace through the redemption that [is] in Christ Jesus, whom God did set forth a mercy seat, through the faith in his blood, for the shewing forth of His righteousness, because of the passing over of the bygone sins in the forbearance of God -- for the shewing forth of His righteousness in the present time, for His being righteous, and declaring him righteous who [is] of the faith of Jesus. (Romans 3:21-26)

Having been declared righteous, then, by faith, we have peace toward God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have the access by the faith into this grace in which we have stood, and we boast on the hope of the glory of God.(Romans 5:1-2)

we by nature Jews, and not sinners of the nations, having known also that a man is not declared righteous by works of law, if not through the faith of Jesus Christ, also we in Christ Jesus did believe, that we might be declared righteous by the faith of Christ, and not by works of law, wherefore declared righteous by works of law shall be no flesh.' (Galatians 2:15-17)

the law, then, [is] against the promises of God? -- let it not be! for if a law was given that was able to make alive, truly by law there would have been the righteousness, but the Writing did shut up the whole under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ may be given to those believing. And before the coming of the faith, under law we were being kept, shut up to the faith about to be revealed, (Galatians 3:21-23)

He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. (Galatians 3:5-7)

yes, indeed, and I count all things to be loss, because of the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, because of whom of the all things I suffered loss, and do count them to be refuse, that Christ I may gain, and be found in him, not having my righteousness, which [is] of law, but that which [is] through faith of Christ -- the righteousness that is of God by the faith, to know him, and the power of his rising again, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being conformed to his death, if anyhow I may attain to the rising again of the dead. (Philippians 3:8-12)

who before was speaking evil, and persecuting, and insulting, but I found kindness, because, being ignorant, I did [it] in unbelief, and exceedingly abound did the grace of our Lord, with faith and love that [is] in Christ Jesus: stedfast [is] the word, and of all acceptation worthy, that Christ Jesus came to the world to save sinners -- first of whom I am; (1 Timothy 1:13-15)

And having the same spirit of the faith, according to that which hath been written, `I believed, therefore I did speak;' we also do believe, therefore also do we speak; knowing that He who did raise up the Lord Jesus, us also through Jesus shall raise up, and shall present with you, for the all things [are] because of you, that the grace having been multiplied, because of the thanksgiving of the more, may abound to the glory of God; (2 Corinthians 4:13-15)

I call upon you, therefore, brethren, through the compassions of God, to present your bodies a sacrifice -- living, sanctified, acceptable to God -- your intelligent service;
and be not conformed to this age, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, for your proving what [is] the will of God -- the good, and acceptable, and perfect.
For I say, through the grace that was given to me, to every one who is among you, not to think above what it behoveth to think; but to think so as to think wisely, as to each God did deal a measure of faith, for as in one body we have many members, and all the members have not the same office, so we, the many, one body are in Christ, and members each one of one another. (Romans 12:1-5)

And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him. (1 John 4:16)

Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. (1 John 5:1)

Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? (1 John 5:5)

He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. (1 John 5:10)

These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. (1 John 5:13)

(for we who have believed enter the rest), in keeping with what He has said: So I swore in My anger, they will not enter My rest. And yet His works have been finished since the foundation of the world, (Hebrews 4:3)

Now without it is impossible to please God, for the one who draws near to Him must believe that He exists and rewards those who seek Him. (Hebrews 11:6)

And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.(Acts 16:31)

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. (Romans 10:9-10)

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. (John 3:16)

and the righteousness of God [is] through the faith of Jesus Christ to all, and upon all those believing, -- for there is no difference, (Romans 3:22)

and to him who is not working, and is believing upon Him who is declaring righteous the impious, his faith is reckoned -- to righteousness: even as David also doth speak of the happiness of the man to whom God doth reckon righteousness apart from works:`Happy they whose lawless acts were forgiven, and whose sins were covered; happy the man to whom the Lord may not reckon sin.' [Is] this happiness, then, upon the circumcision, or also upon the uncircumcision -- for we say that the faith was reckoned to Abraham -- to righteousness? how then was it reckoned? he being in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision; and a sign he did receive of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith in the uncircumcision, for his being father of all those believing through uncircumcision, for the righteousness also being reckoned to them, and father of circumcision to those not of circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of the faith, that [is] in the uncircumcision of our father Abraham. (Romans 4:5-12)

And he hath believed in Jehovah, and He reckoneth it to him (Abraham) – righteousness. (Genesis 15:6)

having known also that a man is not declared righteous by works of law, if not through the faith of Jesus Christ, also we in Christ Jesus did believe, that we might be declared righteous by the faith of Christ, and not by works of law, wherefore declared righteous by works of law shall be no flesh.' (Galatians 2:16)

but the Writing did shut up the whole under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ may be given to those believing. (Galatians 3:22)

let no one despise thy youth, but a pattern become thou of those believing in word, in behaviour, in love, in spirit, in faith, in purity; (1 Timothy 4:11-13)

By faith Enoch was translated -- not to see death, and was not found, because God did translate him; for before his translation he had been testified to -- that he had pleased God well, and apart from faith it is impossible to please well, for it behoveth him who is coming to God to believe that He is, and to those seeking Him He becometh a rewarder. (Hebrews 11:5-7)

who through him do believe in God, who did raise out of the dead, and glory to him did give, so that your faith and hope may be in God. (1 Peter 1:21)

Since the only way and place that the truth and reality of God can be known to exist and reside is in and with a believing mind, then the truth and reality of God must exist and reside in His believing mind.

Since the believer's faith comes from Christ and faith is 100% belief based, then Christ must have believed and had faith. And rejecting God's belief and faith makes you a unbeliever. Satan is much more subtle in his deceptions than most realize.

For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. (Matthew 24:24)

No-where in the Bible does it suggest that God doesn't believe, but denying God believes does turn you and God into a unbeliever.
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
Actually you are the one who thinks God is a unbeliever and not me.
Remember, I am the one who says God is a believer.
So, if you say “god doesn't believe” in other words god lacks belief, then you have made god a unbeliever. That's how the truth and logic works together to show you the implication of your insisting that "God doesn't believe".

And if I believe that God is a believer, then it definitely is not me who is implying that "god is a unbeliever". And if you are diametrically opposed and say the opposite is true of what I believe and I believe 'God believes', then you have made god and yourself unbelievers.
In other words you don't understand how God is God, in that you don't know or understand how He is God and how He manifests Himself in and to us, He makes us a part and parcel of His reality.




You have not explained anything to me, all you have done is show me how God isn't known to you, because you don't know nor understand His way.



Faith is the believers belief in God.



Actually God is a little more involved in and with His creation than that. God knows everything because His believing mind is where all truth and reality originates. And without His believing mind nothing can exist or occur, because outside of a believing mind no truth nor reality can be known to exist or occur.



The very reason He knows everything is because He does believe and not because He doesn't believe silly.

Okay, does God tell us to believe or disbelieve?
Ok, friend, I showed you scripture, not much else I can do.
 

Tercon

Well-known member
Actually I quoted scripture to you from Hebrews and you dismissed it as if it just my idea

You quoted scripture that you don't understand. And you have not responded to one thing that was said to you. The truth doesn't go away just because you choose to disbelieve it.

Again, if you don't attribute your faith and belief's origin to God, then just to what and whom do you attribute your faith and belief's origin?

And if you don't attribute your faith and belief's origin to God, then how can you be a believer, when your faith and belief didn't originate in and with God?

No-one can come to the knowledge of God without believing as Christ believes, that's how and why God chooses and creates ONLY believers. And since Christ's faith and belief originated in and with the Father, then it is God's belief that the Spirit of truth came to dwell in believers, because Our faith and belief originated in and with the Spirit of God and truth and His reality. Nothing exists or occurs outside of God's mind.
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
If you don't attribute your faith to God, then just to what or whom do you attribute your faith?

And now apart from law hath the righteousness of God been manifested, testified to by the law and the prophets, and the righteousness of God [is] through the faith of Jesus Christ to all, and upon all those believing, -- for there is no difference, for all did sin, and are come short of the glory of God -- being declared righteous freely by His grace through the redemption that [is] in Christ Jesus, whom God did set forth a mercy seat, through the faith in his blood, for the shewing forth of His righteousness, because of the passing over of the bygone sins in the forbearance of God -- for the shewing forth of His righteousness in the present time, for His being righteous, and declaring him righteous who [is] of the faith of Jesus. (Romans 3:21-26)

Having been declared righteous, then, by faith, we have peace toward God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have the access by the faith into this grace in which we have stood, and we boast on the hope of the glory of God.(Romans 5:1-2)

we by nature Jews, and not sinners of the nations, having known also that a man is not declared righteous by works of law, if not through the faith of Jesus Christ, also we in Christ Jesus did believe, that we might be declared righteous by the faith of Christ, and not by works of law, wherefore declared righteous by works of law shall be no flesh.' (Galatians 2:15-17)

the law, then, [is] against the promises of God? -- let it not be! for if a law was given that was able to make alive, truly by law there would have been the righteousness, but the Writing did shut up the whole under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ may be given to those believing. And before the coming of the faith, under law we were being kept, shut up to the faith about to be revealed, (Galatians 3:21-23)

He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. (Galatians 3:5-7)

yes, indeed, and I count all things to be loss, because of the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, because of whom of the all things I suffered loss, and do count them to be refuse, that Christ I may gain, and be found in him, not having my righteousness, which [is] of law, but that which [is] through faith of Christ -- the righteousness that is of God by the faith, to know him, and the power of his rising again, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being conformed to his death, if anyhow I may attain to the rising again of the dead. (Philippians 3:8-12)

who before was speaking evil, and persecuting, and insulting, but I found kindness, because, being ignorant, I did [it] in unbelief, and exceedingly abound did the grace of our Lord, with faith and love that [is] in Christ Jesus: stedfast [is] the word, and of all acceptation worthy, that Christ Jesus came to the world to save sinners -- first of whom I am; (1 Timothy 1:13-15)

And having the same spirit of the faith, according to that which hath been written, `I believed, therefore I did speak;' we also do believe, therefore also do we speak; knowing that He who did raise up the Lord Jesus, us also through Jesus shall raise up, and shall present with you, for the all things [are] because of you, that the grace having been multiplied, because of the thanksgiving of the more, may abound to the glory of God; (2 Corinthians 4:13-15)

I call upon you, therefore, brethren, through the compassions of God, to present your bodies a sacrifice -- living, sanctified, acceptable to God -- your intelligent service;
and be not conformed to this age, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, for your proving what [is] the will of God -- the good, and acceptable, and perfect.
For I say, through the grace that was given to me, to every one who is among you, not to think above what it behoveth to think; but to think so as to think wisely, as to each God did deal a measure of faith, for as in one body we have many members, and all the members have not the same office, so we, the many, one body are in Christ, and members each one of one another. (Romans 12:1-5)

And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him. (1 John 4:16)

Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. (1 John 5:1)

Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? (1 John 5:5)

He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. (1 John 5:10)

These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. (1 John 5:13)

(for we who have believed enter the rest), in keeping with what He has said: So I swore in My anger, they will not enter My rest. And yet His works have been finished since the foundation of the world, (Hebrews 4:3)

Now without it is impossible to please God, for the one who draws near to Him must believe that He exists and rewards those who seek Him. (Hebrews 11:6)

And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.(Acts 16:31)

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. (Romans 10:9-10)

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. (John 3:16)

and the righteousness of God [is] through the faith of Jesus Christ to all, and upon all those believing, -- for there is no difference, (Romans 3:22)

and to him who is not working, and is believing upon Him who is declaring righteous the impious, his faith is reckoned -- to righteousness: even as David also doth speak of the happiness of the man to whom God doth reckon righteousness apart from works:`Happy they whose lawless acts were forgiven, and whose sins were covered; happy the man to whom the Lord may not reckon sin.' [Is] this happiness, then, upon the circumcision, or also upon the uncircumcision -- for we say that the faith was reckoned to Abraham -- to righteousness? how then was it reckoned? he being in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision; and a sign he did receive of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith in the uncircumcision, for his being father of all those believing through uncircumcision, for the righteousness also being reckoned to them, and father of circumcision to those not of circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of the faith, that [is] in the uncircumcision of our father Abraham. (Romans 4:5-12)

And he hath believed in Jehovah, and He reckoneth it to him (Abraham) – righteousness. (Genesis 15:6)

having known also that a man is not declared righteous by works of law, if not through the faith of Jesus Christ, also we in Christ Jesus did believe, that we might be declared righteous by the faith of Christ, and not by works of law, wherefore declared righteous by works of law shall be no flesh.' (Galatians 2:16)

but the Writing did shut up the whole under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ may be given to those believing. (Galatians 3:22)

let no one despise thy youth, but a pattern become thou of those believing in word, in behaviour, in love, in spirit, in faith, in purity; (1 Timothy 4:11-13)

By faith Enoch was translated -- not to see death, and was not found, because God did translate him; for before his translation he had been testified to -- that he had pleased God well, and apart from faith it is impossible to please well, for it behoveth him who is coming to God to believe that He is, and to those seeking Him He becometh a rewarder. (Hebrews 11:5-7)

who through him do believe in God, who did raise out of the dead, and glory to him did give, so that your faith and hope may be in God. (1 Peter 1:21)

Since the only way and place that the truth and reality of God can be known to exist and reside is in and with a believing mind, then the truth and reality of God must exist and reside in His believing mind.

Since the believer's faith comes from Christ and faith is 100% belief based, then Christ must have believed and had faith. And rejecting God's belief and faith makes you a unbeliever. Satan is much more subtle in his deceptions than most realize.

For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. (Matthew 24:24)

No-where in the Bible does it suggest that God doesn't believe, but denying God believes does turn you and God into a unbeliever.
I am sorry, but I cannot read all this, though I will address your opening statement, attributing your faith to God.
Of course, faith comes from God.
That was not my point. The point is that God does not operate in faith, because He knows everything, faith is for us who don't know, so that by faith we can understand. God does not need that
 

Tercon

Well-known member
I am sorry, but I cannot read all this,

You can't be bothered to read the Bible then, because it is all Bible verses associated with how and why God is known to believers only.

though I will address your opening statement, attributing your faith to God.
Of course, faith comes from God.
That was not my point. The point is that God does not operate in faith, because He knows everything, faith is for us who don't know, so that by faith we can understand. God does not need that

Your self-deception is false and illogical. You are conflating faith with what you "don't know", rather than with what you are supposed to know as a believer; the truth and reality of God (faith) and which you have to know in order for you to possess Biblical faith and belief to begin with. Belief and faith is what makes the truth and reality of God known to you and not what doesn't make it known to you. What you are calling faith and belief isn't real faith and belief at all, but a ignorance of God rather than a knowledge of God. Sorry but you don't possess Biblical faith, as if you did you would have real faith and belief in God and you would NOT and could NOT conflate your ignorance with the knowledge of God. Unless of course you are an atheist pretending to be a believer in order to discourage real belief and faith?
 
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Sethproton

Well-known member
You can't be bothered to read the Bible then, because it is all Bible verses associated with how and why God is known to believers only.



Your self-deception is false and illogical. You are conflating faith with what you "don't know", rather than with what you are supposed to know as a believer; the truth and reality of God (faith) and which you have to know in order for you to possess Biblical faith and belief to begin with. Belief and faith is what makes the truth and reality of God known to you and not what doesn't make it known to you. What you are calling faith and belief isn't real faith and belief at all, but a ignorance of God rather than a knowledge of God. Sorry but you don't possess Biblical faith, as if you did you would have real faith and belief in God and you would NOT and could NOT conflate your ignorance with the knowledge of God. Unless of course you are an atheist pretending to be a believer in order to discourage real belief and faith?
I read and study the Bible everyday. But I had no idea what all you were going to write, it is just that on these threads I prefer to keep the chat focused and simple. And while I appreciate the effort you went to, i need to focus when I am here.

And I have to apologize, but I cannot even understand what you are trying to say, It comes across as a diatribe, but I did read it to try and see what you were saying. But I assume you are still arguing that God operates out of faith? That there are things He does not know, therefore He needs faith?
I say this, but am thinking that cannot possibly be what you are trying to tell me.
 
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