Foreknowledge and Foreordination

[Theo1689]

I understand your logic, but that is not how the Bible describes what happens.

Yes, it is PRECISELY "how the Bible describes what happens".

Will you value your logic above what the Word says?

Why not?
YOU do...

 

[Theo1689]

It is a misrepresentaion of the word foreknowledge to say it controls our actions.

It's amusing that non-Calvinists constantly feel the need to change the VERB, "foreknow", to a NOUN, "foreknowledge".

Scripture does NOT say that God merely "has foreknowledge" (a static idea).
Scripture teaches that God FOREKNOWS (ie. "forechooses") people (a DYNAMIC action).

That is one of the wonders of God that His foreknowledge allows free will and still knows

Scripture doesn't teach "free will".

 

[Theo1689]

I am sorry, but I cannot read all this, though I will address your opening statement, attributing your faith to God.

Tell me something, Seth....

If someone only reads the first chapter of a novel, do you think they could productively discuss the entire novel?

If not, then why do you think that merely reading someone's "opening statement" allows you to discuss their post?

This is nothing more than my opinion, of course, but I think telling someone they're wrong when you didn't ever bother to read your entire argument is just plain rude. And it is the opposite of having an informed opinion.

 

[Theo1689]

The Bible does not give us a logical/intellectual teaching on how God can condemn someone He loves, but we know it is true.

No, we do NOT "know it is true".
You keep making unsubstantiated assertions with ZERO evidence, yet you expect people to blindly accept everything you say. Why?

 

[Theo1689]

your post confirms that you know of no verses teaching that God created (thru procreation) people who He hated and purposed for hell. If you can support that scripturally, you should,

Apparently Rom. 9 is missing from your Bible.

 

[Theo1689]

Look of the definition of the Greek word. It does not say what you are saying. It is simply define as knowing beforehand. Nothing in the definition says that it is only about people. This is a false definition, devised by calvinist, to cover some of their bad doctrine.

You are rejecting the meaning of Greek words.

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From BDAG (the most respected and comprehensive Greek lexicon):

προγινώσκω
1. to know beforehand or in advance, have foreknowledge (of) τί someth.—Closely connected is the idea of choice that suggests foreknowledge
2. choose beforehand τινά someone Ro 8:29. τὸν λαὸν αὐτοῦ 11:2

Very explicitly.... When the object of the "foreknowing" is an object, a "thing" ("ti"), then the meaning is "know in advance".
When the object of the "foreknowing" is a PERSON, ("tina"), then the meaning is CHOOSE beforehand.

But that doesn't match your false theology, so you reject it.

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Strong's dictionary:

4267. προγινώσκω proginosko, prog-in-oce´-ko; from 4253 and 1097; to know beforehand, i.e. foresee: — foreknow (ordain), know (before).

"Ordain" implies CONTROL over the one "foreknowing".

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UBS Lexicon:

προγινώσκω (aor. προέγνων) know already, know beforehand; choose from the beginning, choose beforehand

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Mounce Greek Dictionary

προγινώσκω proginōskō 5x

to know beforehand, to be previously acquainted with, Acts 26:5; 2 Pet. 3:17; to determine on beforehand, to foreordain, 1 Pet. 1:20; in NT, from the Hebrew, to foreknow, to appoint as the subject of future privileges, Rom. 8:29; 11:2* →
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So I ask you, how many Greek lexicons do I have to quote to you before you will acknowledge that you're wrong?

 

[Theo1689]

We see people here, won over by the apparent brilliance of Calvinism, who then go on to conform the Bible to match what they have embraced,

30 years ago, I was VERY antagonistic against Calvinism, yet the Bible (not any "brilliance of Calvinism") convinced me that it is true.

So much for your self-serving false narrative...

 

[Sethproton]

Tell me something, Seth....

If someone only reads the first chapter of a novel, do you think they could productively discuss the entire novel?

If not, then why do you think that merely reading someone's "opening statement" allows you to discuss their post?

This is nothing more than my opinion, of course, but I think telling someone they're wrong when you didn't ever bother to read your entire argument is just plain rude. And it is the opposite of having an informed opinion.

Thanks for your opinion.

 

[Theo1689]

Thanks for your opinion.

Is there a particular reason you chose to run away from my questions?

Here they are again:

If someone only reads the first chapter of a novel, do you think they could productively discuss the entire novel?
[_] Yes
[_] No

If not, then why do you think that merely reading someone's "opening statement" allows you to discuss their post?
[_] Yes
[_] No

 

[Sethproton]

You are rejecting the meaning of Greek words.

---------------------

From BDAG (the most respected and comprehensive Greek lexicon):

προγινώσκω
1. to know beforehand or in advance, have foreknowledge (of) τί someth.—Closely connected is the idea of choice that suggests foreknowledge
2. choose beforehand τινά someone Ro 8:29. τὸν λαὸν αὐτοῦ 11:2

Very explicitly.... When the object of the "foreknowing" is an object, a "thing" ("ti"), then the meaning is "know in advance".
When the object of the "foreknowing" is a PERSON, ("tina"), then the meaning is CHOOSE beforehand.

But that doesn't match your false theology, so you reject it.

---------------------

Strong's dictionary:

4267. προγινώσκω proginosko, prog-in-oce´-ko; from 4253 and 1097; to know beforehand, i.e. foresee: — foreknow (ordain), know (before).

"Ordain" implies CONTROL over the one "foreknowing".

---------------------

UBS Lexicon:

προγινώσκω (aor. προέγνων) know already, know beforehand; choose from the beginning, choose beforehand

---------------------

Mounce Greek Dictionary

προγινώσκω proginōskō 5x

to know beforehand, to be previously acquainted with, Acts 26:5; 2 Pet. 3:17; to determine on beforehand, to foreordain, 1 Pet. 1:20; in NT, from the Hebrew, to foreknow, to appoint as the subject of future privileges, Rom. 8:29; 11:2* →
---------------------


So I ask you, how many Greek lexicons do I have to quote to you before you will acknowledge that you're wrong?

My point was that when it is used to mean foreknow it can be anything, you included the word "something" which can be an event, a person, any number of things

 

[Sethproton]

Is there a particular reason you chose to run away from my questions?

Here they are again:

If someone only reads the first chapter of a novel, do you think they could productively discuss the entire novel?
[_] Yes
[_] No

If not, then why do you think that merely reading someone's "opening statement" allows you to discuss their post?
[_] Yes
[_] No

I did not discuss their entire post. Never said I was going to. How did you deduce from my post that i was discussing their entire post, since I explicitly said I was only discussing the opening line,

 

[Theo1689]

My point was that when it is used to mean foreknow it can be anything, you included the word "something" which can be an event, a person, any number of things

BDAG makes a distinction between IMPERSONAL objects (ie. "things"), and PERSONAL objects, (ie. "people").

All you're doing is making excuses.

 

[Sethproton]

BDAG makes a distinction between IMPERSONAL objects (ie. "things"), and PERSONAL objects, (ie. "people").

All you're doing is making excuses.

All i am doing with the lexicon is what i do with the Bible, I take it at face value. and try not to impose my own thoughts. the Greek word means to foreknow something. No restrictions given on what that something is

 

[Theo1689]

All i am doing with the lexicon is what i do with the Bible, I take it at face value. and try not to impose my own thoughts. the Greek word means to foreknow something. No restrictions given on what that something is

BDAG says that when the object of "proginosko" is a person, the MEANING is "choose in advance".

As in:

Rom. 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

 

[ReverendRV]

BDAG says that when the object of "proginosko" is a person, the MEANING is "choose in advance".

Thanks, that is significant...

 

[Sethproton]

Thanks, that is significant...

That is not what it says. What it says is that is another use of the verb. Why would you be so anxious to embrace such shoddy methods of proof?

 

[JDS]

All you showed me is how and why you don't know nor understand what the Bible means and what it is for.

I have heard some silly things in my lifetime but nothing as silly as what you are saying. You must be trolling because nobody could really be that confused..

 

[guest1]

I have heard some silly things in my lifetime but nothing as silly as what you are saying. You must be trolling because nobody could really be that confused..

Hey we agree on something

 

[Tercon]

I have heard some silly things in my lifetime but nothing as silly as what you are saying. You must be trolling because nobody could really be that confused..

Hey we agree on something

Actually the two of you have sillier things in your head than that, because you both disbelieve in and reject the ONLY way that God makes Himself and everything known to exist and occur. It is in His belief and Believing Mind that all exists and occurs, and not ours silly. Neither of you have a basis for your belief and faith, because you both reject His means of making Himself known. You both obviously don't know nor understand Biblical belief and faith.

 

[Sethproton]

Actually the two of you have sillier things in your head than that, because you both disbelieve in and reject the ONLY way that God makes Himself and everything known to exist and occur. It is in His belief and Believing Mind that all exists and occurs, and not ours silly. Neither of you have a basis for your belief and faith, because you both reject His means of making Himself known. You both obviously don't know nor understand Biblical belief and faith.

I am still wondering what scripture you reference in saying God has a believing mind, or He has belief
Since I have asked you a few times and you give no scripture, is this something you made up?