Foreknowledge: How Does God Know?

[TomFL]

In your view Tom... How many sins would God have to determine in order for TomFL to consider God “terrible”???

How many TomFL???

What if it was just one Tom?

If I proved that God determined just one “sin in the world” would that make God “terrible” Tom???


Thread 'Did God Meticulously Determine The Crucifixion Of Christ?'
https://forums.carm.org/threads/did-god-meticulously-determine-the-crucifixion-of-christ.1937/

Stick to the scriptures

Your claim is unbiblical

James 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one.
James 1:14 But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire.
James 1:15 Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death.
James 1:16 ¶ Do not be deceived, my beloved brothers.

James 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change.
1Cor. 10:13 No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.

1John 2:16 For all that is in the world—the desires of the flesh and the desires of the eyes and pride of life—is not from the Father but is from the world.

Jer. 19:5 —ESV
“and have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as burnt offerings to Baal, which I did not command or decree, nor did it come into my mind—”

 

[brightfame52]

Stick to the scriptures

Your claim is unbiblical

James 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one.
James 1:14 But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire.
James 1:15 Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death.
James 1:16 ¶ Do not be deceived, my beloved brothers.

James 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change.
1Cor. 10:13 No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.

1John 2:16 For all that is in the world—the desires of the flesh and the desires of the eyes and pride of life—is not from the Father but is from the world.

Jer. 19:5 —ESV
“and have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as burnt offerings to Baal, which I did not command or decree, nor did it come into my mind—”

None of those verses says God didnt determine sin, or that He has knowledge of anything He did not determine.

 

[preacher4truth]

To say God knows what He didnt determine equates to God acquired Knowledge from another source outside of His purpose, which means He learned about it and decided to permit or allow, but He would have rather it be not if it was all up to Him, like sin !

Yes, it is a timid and dissembling way of adhering to Openness without saying it out loud. If you believe something say it out loud like Paul; 2 Corinthians 4:1-2.

 

[brightfame52]

Yes, it is a timid and dissembling way of adhering to Openness without saying it out loud. If you believe something say it out loud like Paul; 2 Corinthians 4:1-2.

Correct. Dont disguise your belief, you must be ashamed of it.

 

[TomFL]

Yes, it is a timid and dissembling way of adhering to Openness without saying it out loud. If you believe something say it out loud like Paul; 2 Corinthians 4:1-2.

sorry but

Open theism is the position that God cannot know what he has not determined

That is the opposite my position

and quite likely open theism receives justification from your theology

 

[Sketo]

Stick to the scriptures

Do you not consider Act 2:22-23 and Act 4:27-28 scripture???

Your claim is unbiblical

How can you say that when the Bible clearly, and undeniably, uses the very word Determined itself???

This was my claim...

Act 2:22-23 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: Him, being delivered by the determinate (G3724)counsel (G1012) and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

(G3724) Strong
ὁρίζω
horizō
hor-id'-zo
From G3725; to mark out or bound (“horizon”), that is, (figuratively) to appoint, decree, specify: - declare, determine, limit, ordain.

(G1012) Strong
βουλή
boulē
boo-lay'
From G1014; volition, that is, (objectively) advice, or (by implication) purpose: - + advise, counsel, will

Act 4:27-28 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand (G5495) and thy counsel determined before (G4309) to be done.

(G5495) Strong
χείρ
cheir
khire
Perhaps from the base of G5494 in the sense of its congener the base of G5490 (through the idea of hollowness for grasping); the hand (literally or figuratively [power]; especially [by Hebraism] a means or instrument): - hand

(G4309) Strong
προορίζω
proorizō
pro-or-id'-zo
From G4253 and G3724; to limit in advance, that is, (figuratively) predetermine: - determine before, ordain, predestinate.

---

How can TomFL miss the word Determined?​

 

[Sketo]

Open theism is the position that God cannot know what he has not determined

Can you site a source for your definition of “Open Theism”???

Or did you just invent your own definition... again???

 

[ReverendRV]

Can you site a source for your definition of “Open Theism”???

Or did you just invent your own definition... again???

His sticking to just one aspect of Open Theism is like sticking to just one aspect of Water Baptism...

 

[Sketo]

His sticking to just one aspect of Open Theism is like sticking to just one aspect of Water Baptism...

True... but either God knowledge is “open” to be determined by an external sources or it is not!

I believe it is not.

TomFL believes it is “open” to be determined by an external source... or he, at least, has not clearly denied it yet!

 

[ReverendRV]

True... but either God knowledge is “open” to be determined by an external sources or it is not!

I believe it is not.

TomFL believes it is “open” to be determined by an external source... or he, at least, has not clearly denied it yet!

Our Confessions of the Faith say that Primary and Secondary Causation are both true Causations. It is true that we as people are also Deterministic...

Is it an 'Either/Or' discussion or is it a 'Both/And' discussion?

 

[Septextura]

Doctrine	Open Theism	Calvinism
Scripture (the Bible). "In the Christian tradition, the Old and the New Testaments are considered Holy Scripture in that they are, or convey, the self-revelation of God."	"Committed to affirming the infallibility of Scripture"	Scripture is "the infallible Word of God".
God's Power. "God's power is limited only by God's own nature and not by any external force."	"God is all-powerful."	"God is all-powerful."
God's Sovereignty. "God's ultimate Lordship and rule over the universe".	Portraying God as ordaining whatever happens reduces "humans to robots".	"Nothing that exists or occurs falls outside God's ordaining will. Nothing, including no evil person or thing or event or deed."
God's Perfection. "God as lacking nothing and free of all moral imperfection".	Believes in "(because Scripture teaches) the absolute perfection of God."	Believes that, because "Scripture says" it, God "will always do what is right".
God's Foreknowledge. "God's knowing things and events before they happen in history".	"God is omniscient" about "settled" reality, but the future that God "leaves open" can be known only as open "possibility" without specific foreknowledge.	Classically Augustinian-Calvinist view: "God knows the future because he preordains it."
The Fall. "The disobedience and sin of Adam and Eve that caused them to lose the state of innocence in which they had been created. This event plunged them and all mankind into a state of sin and corruption."	God "does not unilaterally and irrevocably decide what to do". God's decisions are influenced by "human attitudes and responses".	"Ultimate reason" for the Fall was "God's ordaining will".
Free Will. "The term seeks to describe the free choice of the will which all persons possess. Theological debates have arisen over the ways and to the extent to which sin has affected the power to choose good over evil, and hence one's 'free will'."	Promotes incompatibilism, the doctrine that "the agent's power to do otherwise" is "a necessary condition for acting freely".	Promotes compatibilism, the doctrine that "freedom" of the will requires only "the power or ability to do what one will (desire or choose) to do" without constraint or impediment, even if what one wills is determined.
Free Will and God's Sovereignty. A "caustic debate" began about 1990 over "God's sovereignty and human free will".	Saying that God governs human choices reduces "angels or humans to robots in order to attain his objectives."	God governs "the choices of human beings", but without "cancelling [their] freedom and responsibility".
Theodicy issue. "The justification of a deity's justice and goodness in light of suffering and evil".	To meet the "conditions of love", God exercises "general rather than specific sovereignty, which explains why God does not prevent all evil". Also, God "does not completely control or in any sense will evil" because the world is "held hostage to a cosmic evil force".	Because "Scripture says" it, God "will always do what is right".

Open theism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Septextura]

It's clear that the 180 position of Calvinism is Open Theism. Flowerites need to deal with the truth and come out of the closet. They haven't fooled anyone.

 

[TomFL]

Can you site a source for your definition of “Open Theism”???

Or did you just invent your own definition... again???

There never was a first time and your lack of knowledge regarding O.T. is obvious


Question: "What is open theism?"

Answer: “Open theism,” also known as “openness theology,” the “openness of God,” and “free will theism,” is an attempt to explain the foreknowledge of God in relationship to the free will of man. The argument of open theism is essentially this: human beings are truly free; if God absolutely knew the future, human beings could not truly be free. Therefore, God does not know absolutely everything about the future. Open theism holds that the future is not knowable. Therefore, God knows everything that can be known, but He does not know the future.

Now correct your error

 

[Sketo]

There never was a first time and your lack of knowledge regarding O.T. is obvious


Question: "What is open theism?"

Answer: “Open theism,” also known as “openness theology,” the “openness of God,” and “free will theism,” is an attempt to explain the foreknowledge of God in relationship to the free will of man. The argument of open theism is essentially this: human beings are truly free; if God absolutely knew the future, human beings could not truly be free. Therefore, God does not know absolutely everything about the future. Open theism holds that the future is not knowable. Therefore, God knows everything that can be known, but He does not know the future.

Now correct your error

Not my error to correct! Calvinism is not “free will theism”!

My God knows ALL without the need to “open” his knowledge to be determined by an external source!

Can you affirm the same Tom... or do you still hold that Gods knowledge is derived by “free will creatures” like your definition clearly states???

Now claim your “free will theism” Tom

 

[Septextura]

My take:

God's Omnipotence, Omnipresence and Omnicogniscence isn't limited to His creation. His knowledge isn't limited to knowing anything possible or impossible. His knowledge is infinite. His will is immutable and His decrees noncontingent. He decreed what He decreed and ordained what He ordained only by the council of His own Sovereign will. He created exactly what He wanted. He didn't play the slots in the great casino in heaven or play the cards Oh Fortuna dealt Him. God determines how the dice rolls.

Anything wrong with this?

 

[TomFL]

Not my error to correct! Calvinism is not “free will theism”!

My God knows ALL without the need to “open” his knowledge to be determined by an external source!

Can you affirm the same Tom... or do you still hold that Gods knowledge is derived by “free will creatures” like your definition clearly states???

Now claim your “free will theism” Tom

But you do hold that God cannot know what he has not determined that is why I stated not that you are an open theist but that you justify the claims of the open theist lending him support

 

[Sketo]

Our Confessions of the Faith say that Primary and Secondary Causation are both true Causations. It is true that we as people are also Deterministic...

Yes... but “the people’s determination” coming to pass is ultimately determined by God!

The heart of man plans his way, but the LORD establishes his steps. - Proverbs 16:9

Is it an 'Either/Or' discussion or is it a 'Both/And' discussion?

Once the ultimate “Either/Or” part has been established... then the discussion of the “Both/And” can be discussed!

Evil originates in man but it is God who ultimately determines every outcome!

 

[Sketo]

But you do hold that God cannot know what he has not determined that is why I stated not that you are an open theist but that you justify the claims of the open theist lending him support

This assumes that everything can not fit within Gods determination!

This also assumes an External Source exists outside of Gods determination!

I do not affirm an External Source therefore My God still knows everything apart from an External Source!

Can you, TomFL, claim that God can still know everything apart from an external source?

If you can not deny an external source then you affirm your god’s knowledge is “open” to be determined by the External Source!

Sketo denies that God is “open” to an External Source of knowledge!

 

[TomFL]

Doctrine	Open Theism	Calvinism
Scripture (the Bible). "In the Christian tradition, the Old and the New Testaments are considered Holy Scripture in that they are, or convey, the self-revelation of God."	"Committed to affirming the infallibility of Scripture"	Scripture is "the infallible Word of God".
God's Power. "God's power is limited only by God's own nature and not by any external force."	"God is all-powerful."	"God is all-powerful."
God's Sovereignty. "God's ultimate Lordship and rule over the universe".	Portraying God as ordaining whatever happens reduces "humans to robots".	"Nothing that exists or occurs falls outside God's ordaining will. Nothing, including no evil person or thing or event or deed."
God's Perfection. "God as lacking nothing and free of all moral imperfection".	Believes in "(because Scripture teaches) the absolute perfection of God."	Believes that, because "Scripture says" it, God "will always do what is right".
God's Foreknowledge. "God's knowing things and events before they happen in history".	"God is omniscient" about "settled" reality, but the future that God "leaves open" can be known only as open "possibility" without specific foreknowledge.	Classically Augustinian-Calvinist view: "God knows the future because he preordains it."
The Fall. "The disobedience and sin of Adam and Eve that caused them to lose the state of innocence in which they had been created. This event plunged them and all mankind into a state of sin and corruption."	God "does not unilaterally and irrevocably decide what to do". God's decisions are influenced by "human attitudes and responses".	"Ultimate reason" for the Fall was "God's ordaining will".
Free Will. "The term seeks to describe the free choice of the will which all persons possess. Theological debates have arisen over the ways and to the extent to which sin has affected the power to choose good over evil, and hence one's 'free will'."	Promotes incompatibilism, the doctrine that "the agent's power to do otherwise" is "a necessary condition for acting freely".	Promotes compatibilism, the doctrine that "freedom" of the will requires only "the power or ability to do what one will (desire or choose) to do" without constraint or impediment, even if what one wills is determined.
Free Will and God's Sovereignty. A "caustic debate" began about 1990 over "God's sovereignty and human free will".	Saying that God governs human choices reduces "angels or humans to robots in order to attain his objectives."	God governs "the choices of human beings", but without "cancelling [their] freedom and responsibility".
Theodicy issue. "The justification of a deity's justice and goodness in light of suffering and evil".	To meet the "conditions of love", God exercises "general rather than specific sovereignty, which explains why God does not prevent all evil". Also, God "does not completely control or in any sense will evil" because the world is "held hostage to a cosmic evil force".	Because "Scripture says" it, God "will always do what is right".

Open theism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

God is omniscient" about "settled" reality, but the future that God "leaves open" can be known only as open "possibility" without specific foreknowledge.

In other words God cannot know what free creatures will do

Not my position

 

[TomFL]

This assumes that everything can not fit within Gods determination!

This also assumes an External Source exists outside of Gods determination!

I do not affirm an External Source therefore My God still knows everything apart from an External Source!

Can you, TomFL, claim that God can still know everything apart from an external source?

If you can not deny an external source then you affirm your god’s knowledge is “open” to be determined by the External Source!

Sketo denies that God is “open” to an External Source of knowledge!

But does Sketo not believe God cannot know what he has not determined ?