Foreknowledge

Carbon

Well-known member
It's pretty clear and obvious in scripture that foreknowledge in Romans 8:29 cannot have reference to foreseen faith, good works or a sinners response to the gospel call.
Arminianism is really off the mark on this one.


Faith cannot be the cause of foreknowledge because foreknowledge is before predestination, and faith is the effect of predestination.
48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed. Acts 13.

It cannot even be meant as foreknowledge of good works, because good works are the effect of predestination as well.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. Eph 2.

It cannot be about our concurrence with the external call, but upon God's purpose and grace, given to us in Christ before the world began.
9 who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began, 2 Tim 1.

So, foreknowledge is meant as I have shown, the love of God towards those whom He predestinates to be saved through Jesus Christ. All those who are called by God are foreknown to Him, that is, they are the objects of His eternal love.
the Lord appeared to him from far away.
I have loved you with an everlasting love;
therefore I have continued my faithfulness to you.
Jer 31:3.

I'm not saying that God does not foresee faith, of course He does, He see all things.
But of course, the only faith He sees in the faith that He Himself creates.

3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?” 5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.” John 3.
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, Eph 2.

To believe differently, that's your choice. To prove it in your Arminian view, use scripture, and good luck.

29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. Romans 8.
 

Carbon

Well-known member
"For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son," (Rom 8:29 NKJ)

"For whom He elected, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son," (Rom 8:29 No Bible Ever)
Yes, so what do you think these say?
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
"For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son," (Rom 8:29 NKJ)

"For whom He elected, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son," (Rom 8:29 No Bible Ever)

Nice straw man....
Let me throw your worthless red herring right back in our face, okay?

"For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son," (Rom 8:29 NKJ)

"For whom He looked into the future and saw would eventually have faith, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son," (Rom 8:29 No Bible Ever)




Now, let me edumacate you on the meaning of GREEK terms okay?:

"For whom He <proginosko>, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son," (Rom 8:29 NKJ)



BDAG ("Bauer, Danker, Arndt, and Gingrich")

προγινώσκω
1.
to know beforehand or in advance, have foreknowledge (of) τί someth.
2. choose beforehand τινά someone Ro 8:29.

Basically, when the object of the foreknowing is a "person" (ie. "someone", "tina"), the meaning is "CHOOSE beforehand".



UBS Lexicon:

προγινώσκω
(aor. προέγνων) know already, know beforehand; choose from the beginning, choose beforehand



Mounce Greek Dictionary:


προγινώσκω proginōskō 5x
to know beforehand, to be previously acquainted with, Acts 26:5; 2 Pet. 3:17; to determine on beforehand, to foreordain, 1 Pet. 1:20; in NT, from the Hebrew, to foreknow, to appoint as the subject of future privileges,




Louw & Nida:

προγινώσκω

προγινώσκωa: προγινώσκοντές με ἄνωθεν, ἐὰν θέλωσι μαρτυρεῖν ‘they have already known me beforehand, if they are willing to testify’ Ac 26:5; προεγνωσμένου μὲν πρὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου ‘known already before the world was made’ 1Pe 1:20. It is also possible to understand προγινώσκω in 1Pe 1:20 as meaning ‘chosen beforehand’ (see 30.100).




How many Greek lexicons do we have to show before you are willing to admit that you are wrong?
 

Carbon

Well-known member
"For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son," (Rom 8:29 NKJ)

"For whom He elected, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son," (Rom 8:29 No Bible Ever)
We know God has perfect knowledge of everything, all creatures, all events, etc, etc..
Everything is fully know to Him.
But it’s not His foreknowledge of future events, of what people would do and such which is referred to in vs 28-29, because Paul clearly states, those who He foreknew He predestined, He called, He justified, etc. since all men are not called and justified, it follows that all men are not foreknown by God in the sense Arminians teach verse 29.
 

Carbon

Well-known member
Nice straw man....
Let me throw your worthless red herring right back in our face, okay?

"For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son," (Rom 8:29 NKJ)

"For whom He looked into the future and saw would eventually have faith, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son," (Rom 8:29 No Bible Ever)




Now, let me edumacate you on the meaning of GREEK terms okay?:

"For whom He <proginosko>, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son," (Rom 8:29 NKJ)



BDAG ("Bauer, Danker, Arndt, and Gingrich")

προγινώσκω
1.
to know beforehand or in advance, have foreknowledge (of) τί someth.
2. choose beforehand τινά someone Ro 8:29.

Basically, when the object of the foreknowing is a "person" (ie. "someone", "tina"), the meaning is "CHOOSE beforehand".



UBS Lexicon:

προγινώσκω
(aor. προέγνων) know already, know beforehand; choose from the beginning, choose beforehand



Mounce Greek Dictionary:


προγινώσκω proginōskō 5x
to know beforehand, to be previously acquainted with, Acts 26:5; 2 Pet. 3:17; to determine on beforehand, to foreordain, 1 Pet. 1:20; in NT, from the Hebrew, to foreknow, to appoint as the subject of future privileges,




Louw & Nida:

προγινώσκω

προγινώσκωa: προγινώσκοντές με ἄνωθεν, ἐὰν θέλωσι μαρτυρεῖν ‘they have already known me beforehand, if they are willing to testify’ Ac 26:5; προεγνωσμένου μὲν πρὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου ‘known already before the world was made’ 1Pe 1:20. It is also possible to understand προγινώσκω in 1Pe 1:20 as meaning ‘chosen beforehand’ (see 30.100).




How many Greek lexicons do we have to show before you are willing to admit that you are wrong?
@Dizerner
well, you didn’t do to good at dizerning that one did you
 

Beloved Daughter

Super Member
Nice straw man....
Let me throw your worthless red herring right back in our face, okay?

"For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son," (Rom 8:29 NKJ)

"For whom He looked into the future and saw would eventually have faith, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son," (Rom 8:29 No Bible Ever)




Now, let me edumacate you on the meaning of GREEK terms okay?:

"For whom He <proginosko>, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son," (Rom 8:29 NKJ)



BDAG ("Bauer, Danker, Arndt, and Gingrich")

προγινώσκω
1.
to know beforehand or in advance, have foreknowledge (of) τί someth.
2. choose beforehand τινά someone Ro 8:29.

Basically, when the object of the foreknowing is a "person" (ie. "someone", "tina"), the meaning is "CHOOSE beforehand".



UBS Lexicon:

προγινώσκω
(aor. προέγνων) know already, know beforehand; choose from the beginning, choose beforehand



Mounce Greek Dictionary:


προγινώσκω proginōskō 5x
to know beforehand, to be previously acquainted with, Acts 26:5; 2 Pet. 3:17; to determine on beforehand, to foreordain, 1 Pet. 1:20; in NT, from the Hebrew, to foreknow, to appoint as the subject of future privileges,




Louw & Nida:

προγινώσκω

προγινώσκωa: προγινώσκοντές με ἄνωθεν, ἐὰν θέλωσι μαρτυρεῖν ‘they have already known me beforehand, if they are willing to testify’ Ac 26:5; προεγνωσμένου μὲν πρὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου ‘known already before the world was made’ 1Pe 1:20. It is also possible to understand προγινώσκω in 1Pe 1:20 as meaning ‘chosen beforehand’ (see 30.100).




How many Greek lexicons do we have to show before you are willing to admit that you are wrong?

If you had a thousand more lexicons, it wouldn't change the minds of some. They don't want to believe it. They don't understand that Arminianism has a problem they have not been able to solve either. God knows who will be saved, yet he created others who will not be saved. They just can't deal with facts.
 
Last edited:

Carbon

Well-known member
If you had a thousand more lexicons, it wouldn't change the minds of some. They don't want to believe it. They don't understand that Arminianism has a problem they have not been able to solve either. God knows who will be saved, yet he created others who will not be saved. The just can't deal with facts.
So true!
It must be an extremely painful thing to give God all the glory!
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
We know God has perfect knowledge of everything, all creatures, all events, etc, etc..
Everything is fully know to Him.

I favourite quote of a scholar I know goes like this:

"Did it ever occur to you that nothing ever occurred to God?"

Do you really think that God had to "look" into the future to "learn" what was going to happen?
 

preacher4truth

Well-known member
If you had a thousand more lexicons, it wouldn't change the minds of some. They don't want to believe it. They don't understand that Arminianism has a problem they have not been able to solve either. God knows who will be saved, yet he created others who will not be saved. The just can't deal with facts.
They're scared, horrified and appalled that it is God in His Sovereignty Who elected whomsoever He willed. They feel way more comfy thinking they did it, they make themselves feel secure.
 

Carbon

Well-known member
"For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son," (Rom 8:29 NKJ)

"For whom He elected, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son," (Rom 8:29 No Bible Ever)
Don’t run off, I always wanted to see how an Arminian will use scripture to interpret this.
 

Slyzr

Well-known member
Nice straw man....
Let me throw your worthless red herring right back in our face, okay?

"For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son," (Rom 8:29 NKJ)

"For whom He looked into the future and saw would eventually have faith, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son," (Rom 8:29 No Bible Ever)




Now, let me edumacate you on the meaning of GREEK terms okay?:

"For whom He <proginosko>, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son," (Rom 8:29 NKJ)



BDAG ("Bauer, Danker, Arndt, and Gingrich")

προγινώσκω
1.
to know beforehand or in advance, have foreknowledge (of) τί someth.
2. choose beforehand τινά someone Ro 8:29.

Basically, when the object of the foreknowing is a "person" (ie. "someone", "tina"), the meaning is "CHOOSE beforehand".



UBS Lexicon:

προγινώσκω
(aor. προέγνων) know already, know beforehand; choose from the beginning, choose beforehand



Mounce Greek Dictionary:


προγινώσκω proginōskō 5x
to know beforehand, to be previously acquainted with, Acts 26:5; 2 Pet. 3:17; to determine on beforehand, to foreordain, 1 Pet. 1:20; in NT, from the Hebrew, to foreknow, to appoint as the subject of future privileges,




Louw & Nida:

προγινώσκω

προγινώσκωa: προγινώσκοντές με ἄνωθεν, ἐὰν θέλωσι μαρτυρεῖν ‘they have already known me beforehand, if they are willing to testify’ Ac 26:5; προεγνωσμένου μὲν πρὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου ‘known already before the world was made’ 1Pe 1:20. It is also possible to understand προγινώσκω in 1Pe 1:20 as meaning ‘chosen beforehand’ (see 30.100).




How many Greek lexicons do we have to show before you are willing to admit that you are wrong?

  1. Hebrews 9:28 KJV: So Christ was once offered to bear the ...

    To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. American Standard Version. so Christ also, having been once offered to bear the sins of many, shall appear a second time, apart from sin, to them that wait for him, unto salvation. Berean Study Bible.

'
  1. 1 Kings 9:2 the LORD appeared to him a second time, as He ...

    the LORD appeared to Solomon for a second time, just as he had appeared to him at Gibeon. JPS Tanakh 1917 that the LORD appeared to Solomon the second time, as He had appeared unto him at Gibeon. Literal Standard Version that YHWH appears to Solomon a second time, …
 
Last edited:

Carbon

Well-known member
  1. Hebrews 9:28 KJV: So Christ was once offered to bear the ...

    To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. American Standard Version. so Christ also, having been once offered to bear the sins of many, shall appear a second time, apart from sin, to them that wait for him, unto salvation. Berean Study Bible.

'
  1. 1 Kings 9:2 the LORD appeared to him a second time, as He ...

    the LORD appeared to Solomon for a second time, just as he had appeared to him at Gibeon. JPS Tanakh 1917 that the LORD appeared to Solomon the second time, as He had appeared unto him at Gibeon. Literal Standard Version that YHWH appears to Solomon a second time, …
Ummmm, your point?
 

Carbon

Well-known member
How rude and unchristian-like.

The fact that you feel the need to write pages of response to a simple illustration betrays the lady doth protest too much.

Foreknew means know about beforehand, it's not a euphemism like Adam knew Eve.

You keep explaining that away, I feel no need to join you.
So, you can’t use scripture to show it fits in your Arminian ways?
Okay, I understand
 
Top