Forgiveness of sins

Lastdaysbeliever said:
Then why are you here if you consider responses to be bothersome? If that is the case perhaps you should reconsider why you are here. And I don't consider any discussion or debate a waste of my time. It sometimes bears fruit, others, not so much. Like ours.

And again, stop the ad homs. It only engenders negative feelings about you and is not Christlike.
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I'm not the least but interested in your feelings about me.

When you start talking about me you have lost
 
Lastdaysbeliever said:
I responded to the OP in post #39. You were dissatisfied with my response in post #47. Even going so far as to state I am ignoring Jesus' words. That was a response and that's called debate. I responded in post #61 broadening my response from post #39 to show that only God can forgive sin and that the verse you quoted did not encapsulate the entirety of Jesus' words. One verse, to build theology, doctrine, is called eisigesis. But you already know that, yes? That said, you did not counter with any counter points. Nothing to support your position other then regurgitating your OP question.

Additionally I have not told you how to respond but just asked that you do. A "yes" is not a respectful response, it is a diversion tactic to ignore the points of your opponent. I asked if you would agree with what I asked and then I left those answers up to you.



You purposefully ignored my response questions. Was my response then meant to be disrespectful? Absolutely not. I was seeking your input and wanted to read what you had to say concerning the points I offered. Honestly it's part of two-way communication. Up to that point you are not participating but deflecting, as if your point, your verse, is irrefutable and you will only settle for the answer you want. That's not debate.



You did in the OP. I answered. You are just dissatisfied with the responses.



Please don't bring my mother into your attacks. That's rude.



But it should matter.
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Here is your response from post #39

"Another way to put this is that only God can forgive sin, but we can forgive one another. We can forgive the person for what they did, but we cannot forgive them of sins against God."

That's your answer. Why would Jesus need to give authority to the apostles to forgive sins if it was just person to person?

Either way Matthew 16:29 and Matthew 18:18 tell us a different story. Hilarious.
 
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Yakuda said:
I'm not the least but interested in your feelings about me.
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That is your choice and I respect that.
Yakuda said:
When you start talking about me you have lost
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I'm curious what you think I have lost by commenting on your comments?
Yakuda said:
Here is your response from post #39

"Another way to put this is that only God can forgive sin, but we can forgive one another. We can forgive the person for what they did, but we cannot forgive them of sins against God."

That's your answer. Why would Jesus need to give authority to the apostles to forgive sins if it was just person to person?
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It's pretty clear that I believe only God can forgive sins. I have offered a few Scriptures to support that claim. What you have offered is one verse, used by the RCC and upon which the RCC has built the doctrine of absolution. I don't believe the RCC is right. What Jesus was telling the disciples was they had the authority to tell people their sins were forgiven by repenting, accepting Jesus as Messiah and being baptized, or their sins would not be forgiven if they rejected the Gospel.
 
Lastdaysbeliever said:
That is your choice and I respect that.


I'm curious what you think I have lost by commenting on your comments?


It's pretty clear that I believe only God can forgive sins. I have offered a few Scriptures to support that claim. What you have offered is one verse, used by the RCC and upon which the RCC has built the doctrine of absolution. I don't believe the RCC is right. What Jesus was telling the disciples was they had the authority to tell people their sins were forgiven by repenting, accepting Jesus as Messiah and being baptized, or their sins would not be forgiven if they rejected the Gospel.
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Too bad that's not what scripture says. I offered more passages but that's irrelevant. How many times does scripture have to say something for it to be true? I can't wait for this.
 
Yakuda said:
Too bad that's not what scripture says. I offered more passages but that's irrelevant. How many times does scripture have to say something for it to be true? I can't wait for this.
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But that is what Scripture says. The crux of our issue is you believe priests of the RCC can forgive man's sins against God and state you can provide Scripture to support your claim for absolution of sin. I don't. I believe only God forgives sins, by our repenting of sin (and this is after our salvation) and state I can provide Scripture to support that claim. As a Bible believing Christian I depend upon the Bible, as God-breathed and useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness (2 Tim 3:16) to tell me what is true and the essentials of my Christian faith to guide me as proved by Scripture. You, as a RC depend upon the ecclesiastical authorities of your church to tell you what to believe, what you have to do and how to do it for your salvation. That is where we differ and will never find agreement, solace or kinship.

1 Timothy 2: 5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus
 
Lastdaysbeliever said:
But that is what Scripture says. The crux of our issue is you believe priests of the RCC can forgive man's sins against God and state you can provide Scripture to support your claim for absolution of sin. I don't. I believe only God forgives sins, by our repenting of sin (and this is after our salvation) and state I can provide Scripture to support that claim. As a Bible believing Christian I depend upon the Bible, as God-breathed and useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness (2 Tim 3:16) to tell me what is true and the essentials of my Christian faith to guide me as proved by Scripture. You, as a RC depend upon the ecclesiastical authorities of your church to tell you what to believe, what you have to do and how to do it for your salvation. That is where we differ and will never find agreement, solace or kinship.

1 Timothy 2: 5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus
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AGAIN...how many times does scripture need to say something for it to be true?

BTW am I a Catholic? This has nothing to do with what I believe. I have shown you 3 places where Jesus gave the apostles the authority to forgive sins.
 
Yakuda said:
AGAIN...how many times does scripture need to say something for it to be true?
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It's not how many but what other Scripture proves the text and the proper hermeneutics of Scripture. I offered 5 examples that are show God forgives sin, contrary to what you, and the RCC, claim concerning what Jesus said to His disciples. But let's say for one minute how your church interprets this verse is accurate, wouldn't that authority then have ceased when all the Apostles died or were martyred? Additionally, what other Scripture is written by the Apostles that testifies they forgave sins? I see many that attest to what it means to be saved, how to be forgiven, how to be worship but there is a great chasm between John 20:23 and any other Scripture that describes the Apostles forgiving sins. Educate me. Scripturally.

Yakuda said:
BTW am I a Catholic?
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I would say yes.

Yakuda said:
This has nothing to do with what I believe.
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I would say it has everything to do with what you believe if you want to remain Catholic.

Yakuda said:
I have shown you 3 places where Jesus gave the apostles the authority to forgive sins.
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I went back and could not find these 3 places where Jesus gave the apostles the authority to forgive sins. I earnestly looked.

*edit with strike-thru.
 
Lastdaysbeliever said:
It's not how many but what other Scripture proves the text and the proper hermeneutics of Scripture. I offered 5 examples that are show God forgives sin, contrary to what you, and the RCC, claim concerning what Jesus said to His disciples. But let's say for one minute how your church interprets this verse is accurate, wouldn't that authority then have ceased when all the Apostles died or were martyred? Additionally, what other Scripture is written by the Apostles that testifies they forgave sins? I see many that attest to what it means to be saved, how to be forgiven, how to be worship but there is a great chasm between John 20:23 and any other Scripture that describes the Apostles forgiving sins. Educate me. Scripturally.



I would say yes.



I would say it has everything to do with what you believe if you want to remain Catholic.



I went back and could not find these 3 places where Jesus gave the apostles the authority to forgive sins. I earnestly looked.

*edit with strike-thru.
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If you looked and didn't find it you're being purposely obtuse.
 
Yakuda said:
If you looked and didn't find it you're being purposely obtuse.
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I looked again. I see you offering your opinion, making claims but only 1 Biblical quote. It's late, I'm tired and maybe I missed them because of that and I'll look again in the morning. If you do feel so inclined I would appreciate you pointing me to the different verses you quoted with the post #'s and no, I'm not being purposefully difficult.
 
Lastdaysbeliever said:
I looked again. I see you offering your opinion, making claims but only 1 Biblical quote. It's late, I'm tired and maybe I missed them because of that and I'll look again in the morning. If you do feel so inclined I would appreciate you pointing me to the different verses you quoted with the post #'s and no, I'm not being purposefully difficult.
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Stupidity is never a good argument. You should avoid it
 
I will need to move over to my PC after I take care of my dailies as I haven't been up long, I just finished my daily devotionals when I responded to you. Please be patient and I will reply as I can.
 
Yakuda said:
Let's try the sensible approach, I doubt it will work with you but God makes miracles sometimes.

Matt 16:19
Matt 28:28
John 20:23

Tell me why Jesus does what he does in these passages.
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Yakuda,

I'm back. Apologies for the long wait but it takes several hours to mow our 1/2 acre (yea...no rider...just a push) and all the other yard duties I have and given today is the last nice weather until Friday and the grass was loonnnggg already, better to do it now than wait 3 more days. Thank you for your patience. So, that said, on to the verses you quoted. I pray you receive my response as intended.

Matthew 16: 13 Now when Jesus came into the region of Caesarea Philippi, He was asking His disciples, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?” 14 And they said, “Some say John the Baptist; and others, Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah, or one of the other prophets.” 15 He said to them, “But who do you yourselves say that I am?” 16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17 And Jesus said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.” 20 Then He gave the disciples strict orders that they were to tell no one that He was the Christ.

Taken in context, because there is much more to just this one verse, what Jesus was doing was authorizing the Apostles to establish the rules for the church. It was typical of a Jewish rabbi to loose and bind so it's no surprise Jesus used the same vernacular here because these men, who had personally been chosen by Jesus (follow me), were going to be His representatives when He ascended to heaven and used to write His Words, as inspired by the Holy Spirit and establish the rules we follow today.

Matthew 18: 15 “Now if your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that on the testimony of two or three witnesses every matter may be confirmed. 17 And if he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, he is to be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. 18 Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.

This too must be taken in the context of what came before. Jesus was explaining what discipline was to be within the church and in the loosing and binding, the judgment would be bound or loosed in heaven, as determined by this process, for the unrepentant or repentant sinner.

John 20: Now when it was evening on that day, the first day of the week, and when the doors were shut where the disciples were together due to fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in their midst, and *said to them, “Peace be to you.” 20 And when He had said this, He showed them both His hands and His side. The disciples then rejoiced when they saw the Lord. 21 So Jesus said to them again, “Peace be to you; just as the Father has sent Me, I also send you.” 22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them and *said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.”

I haven't changed my position on this verse. Jesus was giving the Apostles the authority to share His Gospel message, and if someone accepted this message they could tell them their sins were forgiven, if they rejected it they were authorized to tell them the consequences. Something all of us can do even today when we evangelize because the Gospel message is binding and when accepted their salvation is bound in heaven and when rejected the person who rejected it is loosed to continue in their sin.

As Peter preached on the day of Pentecost in Acts 2 :38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

I have a question for you. If Jesus meant for His apostles to forgive sin, which I know you believe with your whole heart, where are the supporting verses where the Apostles did just that? Forgive sins or relate how they forgave sins? Scripture is very silent in this but very robust in how the Apostles shared the Gospel message of salvation for the remission of their sins.

I look forward to your comments Yakuda.

LDB
 
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