Forgotten Trinity: The "order" that is observed biblically is the Father first, the Son second, and the Spirit third.

"The Forgotten Trinity" by James White on page 172...

The "order" that is observed biblically is the Father first, the Son second, and the Spirit third.


Whereas the Bible says...

Revelation 2:8... And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;


TRINITARIANS, two questions...

1.) Do you believe the ETERNAL Person who manifest as Jesus is SECOND in "order"?

2.) If Yes, WHERE does the Bible say the ETERNAL Person who manifest as Jesus is SECOND in "order"?

I say No to question #1.

I believe YHWH/YAH ("THE FIRST AND THE LAST") is the eternal Person who manifest as Jesus.


Here is how I describe the distinctions between the Father, the Son, the Spirit, and YAH...

YAH is spirit and is the only one who is eternal. YAH is also in the universe as spirit and as a human. YAH in the universe as spirit is called the Spirit of God, YAH in the universe as a human is called the Son of God, and eternal YAH is called God the Father.

YAH

Psalm 68:4 NKJV... Sing to God, sing praises to His name; Extol Him who rides on the clouds, By His name YAH, And rejoice before Him.

is spirit
John 4:24 NKJV... “God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

and is the only one who is eternal...
Deuteronomy 33:27 NKJV... The eternal God is your refuge, And underneath are the everlasting arms; He will thrust out the enemy from before you, And will say, ‘Destroy!’
Isaiah 37:16 NKJV... “O LORD of hosts, God of Israel, the One who dwells between the cherubim, You are God, You alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth. You have made heaven and earth.

YAH is also in the universe as spirit
Genesis 1:2 NKJV... The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

and as a human...
1 Timothy 3:16 NKJV... And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory.

YAH in the universe as spirit is called the Spirit of God
Genesis 1:2 NKJV... The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

YAH in the universe as a human is called the Son of God
Luke 1:35 NKJV... And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God.

and eternal YAH is called God the Father.
1 Corinthians 8:6 NKJV... yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.
 
"The Forgotten Trinity" by James White on page 172...

The "order" that is observed biblically is the Father first, the Son second, and the Spirit third.


Whereas the Bible says...

Revelation 2:8... And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;


TRINITARIANS, two questions...

1.) Do you believe the ETERNAL Person who manifest as Jesus is SECOND in "order"?

2.) If Yes, WHERE does the Bible say the ETERNAL Person who manifest as Jesus is SECOND in "order"?

I say No to question #1.

I believe YHWH/YAH ("THE FIRST AND THE LAST") is the eternal Person who manifest as Jesus.


Here is how I describe the distinctions between the Father, the Son, the Spirit, and YAH...

YAH is spirit and is the only one who is eternal. YAH is also in the universe as spirit and as a human. YAH in the universe as spirit is called the Spirit of God, YAH in the universe as a human is called the Son of God, and eternal YAH is called God the Father.

Yes, Jesus is second in order. Matthew 28:19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,"
First "of the Father"
Second "of the Son"
Third "of the Holy Spirit."


See, we look at the order the three are presented in Scripture and mention it.

God Bless
 
Yes, Jesus is second in order. Matthew 28:19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,"
First "of the Father"
Second "of the Son"
Third "of the Holy Spirit."


See, we look at the order the three are presented in Scripture and mention it.

So whereas James White says the order is "one of relationship", YOU say it is simply the order they are listed in Matthew 28:19.


In addition, I think what you meant to say is...

See, we look at the order the three are presented in Matthew 28:19 (rather than in Scripture).


Because the order in Scripture is...

The Spirit of God is either FIRST (if "God" in verse 1 refers to the Being rather than a Person) or SECOND (if "God" in verse 1 refers to a Person).

Genesis 1:1-2... In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.


So why do you choose to use Matthew 28:19 for the order of the ETERNAL Persons rather than...

Galatians 4:6
... And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the (1) Spirit of his (2) Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, (3) Father.

Or some other verse.
 
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So whereas James White says the order is "one of relationship", YOU say it is simply the order they are listed in Matthew 28:19.

Same thing. Father and Son are relationships. Maybe, you need to think things through some more before asking silly questions?

In addition, I think what you meant to say is...

See, we look at the order the three are presented in Matthew 28:19 (rather than in Scripture).

Matthew 28:19 is Scripture. Imagine the audacity to think part of Scripture isn't Scripture because you disagree with the theology presented in such. There isn't a shred of manuscript evidence to deny the veracity of Matthew 28:19 as Scripture.

Because the order in Scripture is...

The Spirit of God is either FIRST (if "God" in verse 1 refers to the Being rather than a Person) or SECOND (if "God" in verse 1 refers to a Person).

Genesis 1:1-2... In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

So, why would one reference Genesis 1 as to classify an order to the relationships between the persons in the Trinity? Oh, you're just making stuff up as you go. I used the quintessential passage in Scripture that presents the three as one who shares a singular name. You mentioned a narrative that isn't directly teaching on the topic of the persons. My passage is relevant and meaningful. Your are simply wasting everyone's time.

So why do you choose to use Matthew 28:19 for the order of the ETERNAL Persons rather than...

Galatians 4:6
... And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the (1) Spirit of his (2) Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, (3) Father.

Or some other verse.

Matthew 28:19 is the quintessential passage in Scripture that presents the three as one who shares a singular name. Genesis 1:1-2 and Galatians 4:6 simply don't compare.

God Bless
 
Matthew 28:19 is Scripture. [/COLOR]Imagine the audacity to think part of Scripture isn't Scripture because you disagree with the theology presented in such. There isn't a shred of manuscript evidence to deny the veracity of Matthew 28:19 as Scripture.

I did NOT deny that Matthew 28:19 is Scripture. It is part of Scripture. But Scripture includes the whole Bible.

So when you said "the order the three are presented in Scripture", you should be looking for the order the three are presented in the whole Bible.

Well, the Spirit of God is presented SECOND (if not FIRST) in all of Scripture.

That is why you should have said...
See, we look at the order the three are presented in Matthew 28:19.

As I pointed out, the Father, Son, and Spirit are listed in different "order" in other passages as well.

Galatians 4:6... And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the (1) Spirit of his (2) Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, (3) Father.


Matthew 28:19 is the quintessential passage in Scripture that presents the three as one who shares a singular name. Genesis 1:1-2 and Galatians 4:6 simply don't compare.

WHO has said Matthew 28:19 is the quintessential passage in Scripture?

I think you should reconsider that statement since ALL Scripture is given by inspiration of God.

And rather than trying to argue that the "order" of the Persons is based on their order in one verse, you should follow James White's example and say the "order" is based on "relationship" where...
#1 = not begotten and not proceeding
#2 = begotten but not proceeding
#3 = proceeding but not begotten

If you don't like that, well I agree that it seems invalid (and that is one reason I don't believe it). But that is the orthodox doctrine of the Tirnity.
 
I did NOT deny that Matthew 28:19 is Scripture. It is part of Scripture. But Scripture includes the whole Bible.

So when you said "the order the three are presented in Scripture", you should be looking for the order the three are presented in the whole Bible.

Well, the Spirit of God is presented SECOND (if not FIRST) in all of Scripture.

That is why you should have said...
See, we look at the order the three are presented in Matthew 28:19.

As I pointed out, the Father, Son, and Spirit are listed in different "order" in other passages as well.

Galatians 4:6... And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the (1) Spirit of his (2) Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, (3) Father.

So what you are saying is that you refuse to consider the quintessential passage that presents the three as one who shares a singular name? You would rather go with other less relevant passages to fain ambiguity while criticizing us for holding a position.

WHO has said Matthew 28:19 is the quintessential passage in Scripture?

Exactly? I never said that. I said Matthew 28:19 is the quintessential passage in Scripture that presents the three as one who shares a singular name. Lying by omission is slander.

God Bless
 
So what you are saying is that you refuse to consider the quintessential passage that presents the three as one who shares a singular name? You would rather go with other less relevant passages to fain ambiguity while criticizing us for holding a position.

When you say "the three as one who share a singular name" can I ask you what that name is?

Acts 2:38 seems to say its Jesus?
 
So what you are saying is that you refuse to consider the quintessential passage that presents the three as one who shares a singular name? You would rather go with other less relevant passages to fain ambiguity while criticizing us for holding a position.

I too would like to know what you believe the "singular name" is.

So which "singular name" does Matthew 28:19 present the three as sharing?
A) "of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit"
B) "Yahweh"
C) "Jesus"
D) other, please explain

I say B.
 
I too would like to know what you believe the "singular name" is.

So which "singular name" does Matthew 28:19 present the three as sharing?
A) "of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit"
B) "Yahweh"
C) "Jesus"
D) other, please explain

I say B.

Yes, B. Can you ask a more obvious question? The three, Father, Son and Spirit, share the divine name YHWH.

God Bless
 
Yes, B. Can you ask a more obvious question? The three, Father, Son and Spirit, share the divine name YHWH.

God Bless

But Matthew 28:19 does NOT mention the name YHWH.

So how does Matthew 28:19 "present the three as one who share the name YHWH"?

I said Matthew 28:19 is the quintessential passage in Scripture that presents the three as one who shares a singular name.

That is why some of your fellow Trinitarians like James White and @johnny guitar say the "singular name" is "the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit".
 
Well, some trinitarians believe that God's name is "Father, Son and Holy Spirit"

Who? I've been a Trinitarian and have attended Trinitarian Churches for some 40 years. I've never met a single person who would say such. I'm not denying the possibility that someone somewhere believes such, but this sounds a lot more like a story made up by a Oneness Preacher to mock Trinitarians.

God Bless
 
Who? I've been a Trinitarian and have attended Trinitarian Churches for some 40 years. I've never met a single person who would say such. I'm not denying the possibility that someone somewhere believes such, but this sounds a lot more like a story made up by a Oneness Preacher to mock Trinitarians.

God Bless
I've only heard Johnny Guitar on this forum say that. But apparently James White as well? I go to a Trinitarian Church as well, but our pastor never uses the word Yahweh or Jehovah for God. It's either God, Father, or Jesus.
 
But Matthew 28:19 does NOT mention the name YHWH.

And? God the Father's name is YHWH. BTW, the NT doesn't mention the name YHWH either.

So how does Matthew 28:19 "present the three as one who share the name YHWH"?

It present the three as one who share a singular name. The only name it can be is YHWH. Ergo...

I said Matthew 28:19 is the quintessential passage in Scripture that presents the three as one who shares a singular name.
That is why some of your fellow Trinitarians like James White and @johnny guitar say the "singular name" is "the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit".

I've read James White. He never said the name itself is "the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit". I've heard him countless times say the name is YHWH. Maybe you should learn how to read things in context?

God Bless
 
I've only heard Johnny Guitar on this forum say that. But apparently James White as well? I go to a Trinitarian Church as well, but our pastor never uses the word Yahweh or Jehovah for God. It's either God, Father, or Jesus.

Wow.

Well ask your pastor this Sunday...

Is God's name Yahweh?

If he says Yes, ask him...

Why don't you ever call God by his name?

And let us know what he says.

I am curious considering...

Exodus 3:15 NLT... God also said to Moses, “Say this to the people of Israel: Yahweh, the God of your ancestors—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob—has sent me to you. This is my eternal name, my name to remember for all generations.
 
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I've only heard Johnny Guitar on this forum say that. But apparently James White as well? I go to a Trinitarian Church as well, but our pastor never uses the word Yahweh or Jehovah for God. It's either God, Father, or Jesus.

James White does not. I don't know Johnny Guitar. Tell your pastor to put some meat in his sermons.

God Bless
 
James White does not. I don't know Johnny Guitar. Tell your pastor to put some meat in his sermons.

God Bless

Does to! :)

On page 175 of James White's book titled "The Forgotten Trinity" he says...

Israel had worshipped the one and only true God under the Name of Jehovah; Christians are to worship the same one and only and true God under the Name of "the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost."

The final chapter of his book starts with...

I love the Trinity. I honor the Father, the Son, and the Spirit. I have been baptized in that one divine Name, and I gladly call myself a servant of the triune God.
 
The final chapter of his book starts with...

I love the Trinity. I honor the Father, the Son, and the Spirit. I have been baptized in that one divine Name, and I gladly call myself a servant of the triune God.

I meant to say...

The final paragraph of his book starts with...

I love the Trinity. I honor the Father, the Son, and the Spirit. I have been baptized in that one divine Name, and I gladly call myself a servant of the triune God...
 
Does to! :)

On page 175 of James White's book titled "The Forgotten Trinity" he says...

Israel had worshipped the one and only true God under the Name of Jehovah; Christians are to worship the same one and only and true God under the Name of "the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost."

The final chapter of his book starts with...

I love the Trinity. I honor the Father, the Son, and the Spirit. I have been baptized in that one divine Name, and I gladly call myself a servant of the triune God.

Thank you for expressing your inability to read. If you were paying attention, he was talking about how people should get baptized. He wasn't saying God's name changed. How can anyone be this obstinately ignorant?

God Bless
 
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