Forgotten Trinity: The Son is not the Spirit.

“The Forgotten Trinity” by James White on page 131…

There are three divine persons, the Father, the Son, and the Spirit. The Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Spirit, and the Spirit is not the Father.


Whereas the Bible says...

2 Corinthians 3:17... Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.


TRINITARIANS, I have two questions for you...

Does "the Lord" in 2 Corinthians 3:17 refer to "the Son of God"?
I say Yes.

Does "the Spirit" in 2 Corinthians 3:17 refer to "the Spirit of God"?
I say Yes.


Here is an overview of what I believe...


GOD is spirit and is the only one who is eternal. GOD is also in the universe as spirit and as a human. GOD in the universe as spirit is called the Spirit of God, GOD in the universe as a human is called the Son of God, and eternal GOD is called God the Father.

GOD

English Bibles and I use the word GOD (with all caps) to signify the underlying Hebrew word is YHWH (a proper name) rather than Elohim (a title).
Exodus 23:17 ESV… Three times in the year shall all your males appear before the Lord GOD.

is spirit
John 4:24 ESV… God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.

and is the only one who is eternal...
Deuteronomy 33:27 ESV… The eternal God is your dwelling place, and underneath are the everlasting arms. And he thrust out the enemy before you and said, ‘Destroy.’
Isaiah 37:16 ESV… “O LORD of hosts, God of Israel, enthroned above the cherubim, you are the God, you alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth; you have made heaven and earth.

GOD is also in the universe as spirit
Genesis 1:2 ESV… The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

and as a human...
1 Timothy 3:16 ESV… Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery of godliness: He was manifested in the flesh, vindicated by the Spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed among the nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory.

GOD in the universe as spirit is called the Spirit of God
Genesis 1:2 ESV… The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

GOD in the universe as a human is called the Son of God
Luke 1:35 ESV… And the angel answered her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy—the Son of God.

and eternal GOD is called God the Father.
1 Corinthians 8:6 ESV… yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.
 

johnny guitar

Active member
“The Forgotten Trinity” by James White on page 131…

There are three divine persons, the Father, the Son, and the Spirit. The Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Spirit, and the Spirit is not the Father.


Whereas the Bible says...

2 Corinthians 3:17... Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.


TRINITARIANS, I have two questions for you...

Does "the Lord" in 2 Corinthians 3:17 refer to "the Son of God"?
I say Yes.

Does "the Spirit" in 2 Corinthians 3:17 refer to "the Spirit of God"?
I say Yes.


Here is an overview of what I believe...


GOD is spirit and is the only one who is eternal. GOD is also in the universe as spirit and as a human. GOD in the universe as spirit is called the Spirit of God, GOD in the universe as a human is called the Son of God, and eternal GOD is called God the Father.

GOD

English Bibles and I use the word GOD (with all caps) to signify the underlying Hebrew word is YHWH (a proper name) rather than Elohim (a title).
Exodus 23:17 ESV… Three times in the year shall all your males appear before the Lord GOD.

is spirit
John 4:24 ESV… God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.

and is the only one who is eternal...
Deuteronomy 33:27 ESV… The eternal God is your dwelling place, and underneath are the everlasting arms. And he thrust out the enemy before you and said, ‘Destroy.’
Isaiah 37:16 ESV… “O LORD of hosts, God of Israel, enthroned above the cherubim, you are the God, you alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth; you have made heaven and earth.

GOD is also in the universe as spirit
Genesis 1:2 ESV… The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

and as a human...
1 Timothy 3:16 ESV… Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery of godliness: He was manifested in the flesh, vindicated by the Spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed among the nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory.

GOD in the universe as spirit is called the Spirit of God
Genesis 1:2 ESV… The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

GOD in the universe as a human is called the Son of God
Luke 1:35 ESV… And the angel answered her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy—the Son of God.

and eternal GOD is called God the Father.
1 Corinthians 8:6 ESV… yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.
The passage refers to The Spirit of The Lord who is The Holy Spirit.
 
The passage refers to The Spirit of The Lord who is The Holy Spirit.

Just to clarify...

Are you answering YES or NO to this question (I could not tell)...

Does "the Lord" in 2 Corinthians 3:17 refer to "the Son of God"?

I say Yes.


I think you are saying YES to this question (correct me if I am mistaken)...

Does "the Spirit" in 2 Corinthians 3:17 refer to "the Spirit of God"?
We both say Yes.


2 Corinthians 3:17... Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.
 

johnny guitar

Active member
Just to clarify...

Are you answering YES or NO to this question (I could not tell)...

Does "the Lord" in 2 Corinthians 3:17 refer to "the Son of God"?

I say Yes.


I think you are saying YES to this question (correct me if I am mistaken)...

Does "the Spirit" in 2 Corinthians 3:17 refer to "the Spirit of God"?
We both say Yes.


2 Corinthians 3:17... Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.
NO! I told you it refers to The Holy Spirit.
I believe my response made that quite CLEAR.
 
NO! I told you it refers to The Holy Spirit.
I believe my response made that quite CLEAR.

Then that would be a big difference between the Trinity view and my view...

I believe "the Lord" in 2 Corinthians 3:17 refers to "the Son of God".

Whereas you believe "the Lord" in 2 Corinthians 3:17 refers to another Person.

2 Corinthians 3:17... Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.


What do the rest of you believe...

Does "the Lord" in 2 Corinthians 3:17 refer to "the Son of God"?

I say Yes.
@johnny guitar says No.
 

johnny guitar

Active member
Then that would be a big difference between the Trinity view and my view...

I believe "the Lord" in 2 Corinthians 3:17 refers to "the Son of God".

Whereas you believe "the Lord" in 2 Corinthians 3:17 refers to another Person.

2 Corinthians 3:17... Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.


What do the rest of you believe...

Does "the Lord" in 2 Corinthians 3:17 refer to "the Son of God"?

I say Yes.
@johnny guitar says No.
Already answered. NO!
Next question...............................
 

OldShepherd

Active member
NO! I told you it refers to The Holy Spirit.
I believe my response made that quite CLEAR.
The immediate context of vs. 17 shows clearly that "the Lord is that spirit" clearly refers to Jesus.
2 Corinthians 3:13-17
13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.​
vs. 14 Reading of the Old Testament the vail is done away in Christ.
vs. 16 When Israel shall turn to the Lord the vail is taken away.
vs. 17 the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
 
The immediate context of vs. 17 shows clearly that "the Lord is that spirit" clearly refers to Jesus.
2 Corinthians 3:13-17

13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:

14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.

16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
vs. 14 Reading of the Old Testament the vail is done away in Christ.
vs. 16 When Israel shall turn to the Lord the vail is taken away.
vs. 17 the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
No, but rather Yahweh is the Spirit that reveals himself and his glory within and through Christ Jesus now and not like in the past through Moses who vailed his face because the glory within him was fading away and that is all that Paul is saying in this passage.

Therefore when Israel shall turn to Yahweh through Christ, the veil is done away because Jesus reveals Yahweh more perfectly and completely than he was revealed through Moses.

This only shows how easily trinitarians will butcher a passage of scripture to make it say what it really doesn't say at all.
 

johnny guitar

Active member
No, but rather Yahweh is the Spirit that reveals himself and his glory within and through Christ Jesus now and not like in the past through Moses who vailed his face because the glory within him was fading away and that is all that Paul is saying in this passage.

Therefore when Israel shall turn to Yahweh through Christ, the veil is done away because Jesus reveals Yahweh more perfectly and completely than he was revealed through Moses.

This only shows how easily trinitarians will butcher a passage of scripture to make it say what it really doesn't say at all.
Moses had NO glory within him, he merely reflected, temporarily, the glory of God.
Jesus Christ is The Lord of glory who permanently RADIATES the glory of God.
 

civic

Well-known member
The immediate context of vs. 17 shows clearly that "the Lord is that spirit" clearly refers to Jesus.
2 Corinthians 3:13-17

13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:

14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.

16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
vs. 14 Reading of the Old Testament the vail is done away in Christ.
vs. 16 When Israel shall turn to the Lord the vail is taken away.
vs. 17 the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
Indeed it is brother !!!
 
White is Right

next.................

Well.... You did NOT answer either question from the OP.


Can you please provide your answers...

Does "the Lord" in 2 Corinthians 3:17 refer to "the Son of God"?
I say Yes.

Does "the Spirit" in 2 Corinthians 3:17 refer to "the Spirit of God"?
I say Yes.

2 Corinthians 3:17... Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.
 

civic

Well-known member
Well.... You did NOT answer either question from the OP.


Can you please provide your answers...

Does "the Lord" in 2 Corinthians 3:17 refer to "the Son of God"?
I say Yes.

Does "the Spirit" in 2 Corinthians 3:17 refer to "the Spirit of God"?
I say Yes.

2 Corinthians 3:17... Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.
Lord refers to the Son.

next..............................
 
Lord refers to the Son.

next..............................

There were TWO questions but you only answered the first.

Here is the second question...

Does "the Spirit" in 2 Corinthians 3:17 refer to "the Spirit of God"?
I say Yes.

2 Corinthians 3:17... Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.

Are you able to answer that question.

Reply
 

johnny guitar

Active member
There were TWO questions but you only answered the first.

Here is the second question...

Does "the Spirit" in 2 Corinthians 3:17 refer to "the Spirit of God"?
I say Yes.

2 Corinthians 3:17... Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.

Are you able to answer that question.

Reply
Of course, since The Lord IS God.
 

OldShepherd

Active member
No, but rather Yahweh is the Spirit that reveals himself and his glory within and through Christ Jesus now and not like in the past through Moses who vailed his face because the glory within him was fading away and that is all that Paul is saying in this passage.

Therefore when Israel shall turn to Yahweh through Christ, the veil is done away because Jesus reveals Yahweh more perfectly and completely than he was revealed through Moses.

This only shows how easily trinitarians will butcher a passage of scripture to make it say what it really doesn't say at all.
Do you even read the nonsense you post? I quoted scripture exactly and unlike you I did not change or add anything to it.
2 Corinthians 3:13-17
13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.​
You accuse me of butchering scripture. Please show where where this passage says, "Yahweh is the Spirit that reveals himself and his glory within and through Christ Jesus?"
Next show me where Paul said, "the glory within him [Moses]was fading away and that is all that Paul is saying in this passage?"
Then show me where Paul said,
"the veil is done away because Jesus reveals Yahweh more perfectly and completely than he was revealed through Moses?'
This is what butchering "a passage of scripture to make it say what it really doesn't say at all" looks like
If Jesus had intended to say what you claim that is what he would have said.
"If the plain sense of scripture makes good sense, it is nonsense to seek any other sense."
 
Do you even read the nonsense you post? I quoted scripture exactly and unlike you I did not change or add anything to it.

2 Corinthians 3:13-17​

13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:

14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.

16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
You accuse me of butchering scripture. Please show where where this passage says, "Yahweh is the Spirit that reveals himself and his glory within and through Christ Jesus?"

It doesn't matter that you quoted the scripture exactly as it is written, when you are also reading into it what you yourself already want it to mean in order to fit your doctrine and like you always do also.



There is nothing in the passage whatsoever to force it to be saying that the words "the Lord is that Spirit" are speaking of Jesus just because through and in him, God removes the vail of darkness over the eyes of the Jews when they turn to Yahweh through Jesus.

The vail is taken away in Christ when through him they turn to the Yahweh God, and where the Spirit of Yahweh is, there is liberty and that is also that Paul is saying in this passage.

For when they turn to the Lord through acceptance of Christ, the vail is taken away by Yahweh, for it is through Jesus that Yahweh does everything that he does and that is what Paul meant when he called Jesus the man, the only mediator between God and men.


Next show me where Paul said, "the glory within him [Moses]was fading away and that is all that Paul is saying in this passage?"

Upon him or within him, that isn't even relevant, for the glory did not continue with Moses like it does in Christ Jesus and that is the point.
Then show me where Paul said, "the veil is done away because Jesus reveals Yahweh more perfectly and completely than he was revealed through Moses?'
Oh give me a break already OS, their eyes are vailed and which really means that they could not see to understand the truth of God through the OT covenant under Moses.

Therefore when they turn to God through and in Christ Jesus, the vail of darkness about the truth of God and his glory is removed


For heaven sake, what do you think that the veil refers to anyhow?


The glory refers to what comes from a true unhindered knowledge of God and which means who God is in Spirit and Truth and which is the revelation of his glory and Paul even speak of it in 2 Corinthians 4:4-6.



2 Corinthians 4:4-6 New International Version

4 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5 For what we preach is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus’ sake. 6 For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,”[a] made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of God’s glory displayed in the face of Christ.

By the way, now you can see why the truth is hidden from those who will not humble themselves and repent and believe in God and seek him for the truth through Christ Jesus.,


That is what Jesus meant in Matthew 11:25-30, for if you do not come to God like a little child to receive from him everything you need and especially from the scriptures, you will be left in the darkness that Satan has blinded your eyes with dude.



This is what butchering "a passage of scripture to make it say what it really doesn't say at all" looks like
If Jesus had intended to say what you claim that is what he would have said.
"If the plain sense of scripture makes good sense, it is nonsense to seek any other sense."
It wasn't written by Jesus anyhow but rather by Paul and all true believers would already know that Jesus is the mediator through which Yahweh does all that he does for us.

Therefore when someone comes to Christ and is therefore in Christ Jesus, they are turning to Yahweh through him and the vail is then removed and which is what Paul was revealing in the passage.


It is just that simple and that is what Paul was revealing in the passage whether you want to accept and believe it or not.
 

OldShepherd

Active member
It doesn't matter that you quoted the scripture exactly as it is written, when you are also reading into it what you yourself already want it to mean in order to fit your doctrine and like you always do also.
There is nothing in the passage whatsoever to force it to be saying that the words "the Lord is that Spirit" are speaking of Jesus just because through and in him, God removes the vail of darkness over the eyes of the Jews when they turn to Yahweh through Jesus.
This is the most ridiculous thing I have ever read. Total rubbish. If I quote the scripture exactly how it is written and I add nothing to it how can I read anything into it?
Explain that to me.
Anyone can make scripture say almost anything they want it to by taking a piece of scripture from one place and a piece of scripture from another place and jam them together as you have done.
 
Does "the Lord" in 2 Corinthians 3:17 refer to "the Son of God"?
Lord refers to the Son.

Does "the Spirit" in 2 Corinthians 3:17 refer to "the Spirit of God"?
Of course, since The Lord IS God.


So according to your TRINITARIAN view, this verse...

2 Corinthians 3:17... Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.


...would mean...

2 Corinthians 3:17... Now the Son of God is the Spirit of God, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.
 
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