Forgotten Trinity: The Son is not the Spirit.

This is the most ridiculous thing I have ever read. Total rubbish. If I quote the scripture exactly how it is written and I add nothing to it how can I read anything into it?
Explain that to me.

Anyone can make scripture say almost anything they want it to by taking a piece of scripture from one place and a piece of scripture from another place and jam them together as you have done.
Of course it is ridiculous to you OS, and that is because you are in the flesh and not in the Spirit and just as Paul reveals in 1 Corinthians 2:13-14, because you are being taught God's word by the wisdom that man teaches and not by the wisdom of the Spirit, you are not able to see the truth in these passages.

Therefore, being you want to believe that Jesus is Yahweh himself, when Paul says, the vail is done away in Christ, you refuse to see Jesus as the mediator by which Yahweh removes the vail and instead you want to insist that the passage is revealing Jesus as Yahweh instead.

By the way, I never added any other scriptures to explain what Paul is really saying in this passage and didn't have to either, for Jesus is the mediator between God and man and therefore the vail was removed by Yahweh and mediated through Jesus Christ and that is what Paul is saying.



Therefore the words "the Lord is that Spirit" is not referring to Jesus but rather the Father Yahweh God who removes the vail once someone repents and believes and are included into Christ Jesus by faith and that is all that Paul is saying in this verse and there is nothing complicated about it either.


Concerning your last statement in the bold orange above, I totally agree, for that is what you have done also in formulating your doctrines of the trinity and Jesus as being God and also how you formulated your "Hypostatic Union doctrine", for these are not explicitly taught in the scriptures at all.


They are not implied either, not when one is understanding the passages correctly that you are falsely using to formulated these doctrines from.
 
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So according to your TRINITARIAN view, this verse...

2 Corinthians 3:17... Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.


...would mean...

2 Corinthians 3:17... Now the Son of God is the Spirit of God, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.
Strawman. The Holy Spirit is The Spirit of God.
 
I would answer yes to both. It does seem to be talking about the economic trinity(even though this is a made up phrase) in that passage.

Take a look at 1 Corinthians 15:45

Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

Growing up outside of the Reformed/Calvinist church, I would often hear phrases like "ask Jesus into your heart". Now, it seems like these types of phrases are highly deceiving. My question to you...

1. Does the Holy Spirit indwell Christians?
2. Does Jesus(or the Spirit of Christ) indwell Christians?
 
Of course it is ridiculous to you OS, and that is because you are in the flesh and not in the Spirit and just as Paul reveals in 1 Corinthians 2:13-14, because you are being taught God's word by the wisdom that man teaches and not by the wisdom of the Spirit, you are not able to see the truth in these passages.

Therefore, being you want to believe that Jesus is Yahweh himself, when Paul says, the vail is done away in Christ, you refuse to see Jesus as the mediator by which Yahweh removes the vail and instead you want to insist that the passage is revealing Jesus as Yahweh instead.
More of that "Holier than thou" trash. You and a bunch of other heterodox-ites claim that only you have the spirit and anyone who contradicts you is wrong. You cannot prove it with scripture only phony claims of spiritual guidance.. A bunch of religious groups makes the same empty claim; LDS, JW, WWCVG, OP, UPCI, INC etc. Which one should I listen to you or one of these.
Even in this short excerpt you claim that scripture does NOT mean what it literally says.
2 Corinthians 3:12-17
12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.​
Vs. 14 there is a veil over their faces of the Israelites. The veil is done away in Christ.
Vs. 15 when Moses is read the veil is on their hearts.
Vs. 16 when Israel turns to the Lord, the veil shall be taken away.
.....The veil is done away when Israel is in Christ/turns to the Lord.
Vs. 17 the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
I have not added anything, changed anything or taken anything away.
All you got is "I have spiritual guidance that you other mortals don't have.
 
More of that "Holier than thou" trash. You and a bunch of other heterodox-ites claim that only you have the spirit and anyone who contradicts you is wrong. You cannot prove it with scripture only phony claims of spiritual guidance.. A bunch of religious groups makes the same empty claim; LDS, JW, WWCVG, OP, UPCI, INC etc. Which one should I listen to you or one of these.
Even in this short excerpt you claim that scripture does NOT mean what it literally says.

2 Corinthians 3:12-17

12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:

13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:

14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.

16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
Vs. 14 there is a veil over their faces of the Israelites. The veil is done away in Christ.
Vs. 15 when Moses is read the veil is on their hearts.
Vs. 16 when Israel turns to the Lord, the veil shall be taken away.
.....The veil is done away when Israel is in Christ/turns to the Lord.
Vs. 17 the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
I have not added anything, changed anything or taken anything away.
All you got is "I have spiritual guidance that you other mortals don't have.
 
More of that "Holier than thou" trash. You and a bunch of other heterodox-ites claim that only you have the spirit and anyone who contradicts you is wrong. You cannot prove it with scripture only phony claims of spiritual guidance.. A bunch of religious groups makes the same empty claim; LDS, JW, WWCVG, OP, UPCI, INC etc. Which one should I listen to you or one of these.

Holier than thou is exactly the image that you have projected yourself and from the very first post that I have ever replied to of yours dude but it is common for those who are, "Holier than thou", to believe instead that it is always the others who are instead.
Even in this short excerpt you claim that scripture does NOT mean what it literally says.
2 Corinthians 3:12-17

12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:

13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:

14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.

16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
Vs. 14 there is a veil over their faces of the Israelites. The veil is done away in Christ.
Vs. 15 when Moses is read the veil is on their hearts.
Vs. 16 when Israel turns to the Lord, the veil shall be taken away.
.....The veil is done away when Israel is in Christ/turns to the Lord.

Vs. 17 the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
I have not added anything, changed anything or taken anything away.
All you got is "I have spiritual guidance that you other mortals don't have.
I never claimed that it doesn't mean what it clearly says dude.

I only claimed that your idea that because the vail is done away in Christ, that this automatically means that the Lord who removes it is still referring to Christ instead of Yahweh, is wrong.

Instead, I see the vail as being removed by Yahweh (the Lord) when one turns to Yahweh (The Lord) through Christ instead and therefore it is done away in Christ when one turns to Yahweh the Lord through their acceptance of Jesus Christ.


You are the one who is insisting that the words in the bold orange above reveal the Christ and the Lord are one and the same being and person in the passage and the passage cannot be forced to mean this at all, for once again, Christ is the means by which God removes the vail from those who repent and believe in God through him.


Now then being you like to believe that you are taking scriptures for what they are truly saying and meaning, let's put that to the test by you telling me what these words of Jesus are truly saying and meaning in these passages below dude?

For unlike your passage in 2 Corinthians 3:12-17 that can be viewed differently than how you are viewing it, these words of Jesus cannot be at all period.



John 17:3 "This is eternal life, that they might know you (Father) The Only True God and Jesus the Christ whom you have sent".


John 5:26 "For just as the Father has life in himself, so he has given unto the Son to have life in himself also".

John 6:57 "For just as The Living Father has sent me and I live because of The Father, so he who eats of me will live because of me".

Matthew 24:36 "But of that day and hour, no man knows, not the angels, nor the Son, BUT THE FATHER ONLY".



So then, let's see how you will answer the above passages OS?
 
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I would answer yes to both. It does seem to be talking about the economic trinity(even though this is a made up phrase) in that passage.

Take a look at 1 Corinthians 15:45

Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

Growing up outside of the Reformed/Calvinist church, I would often hear phrases like "ask Jesus into your heart". Now, it seems like these types of phrases are highly deceiving. My question to you...

1. Does the Holy Spirit indwell Christians?
2. Does Jesus(or the Spirit of Christ) indwell Christians?
BOTH Persons dwell in Christians.
 
Ok, the the Triune God abides in Christians?
That is false completely and here is proof of it from the very words of Jesus himself in John 16:13-15.

John 16:13-15 New International Version

13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.


Notice the two verses in bold red underlined above, for Jesus told us that the Spirit would speak on behalf of Jesus, do you see that?

That means that when Jesus said that he would dwell within them, he was not saying that he would dwell within them personally but rather that he would dwell within them through his connection with the Holy Spirit and that they also would be given to connect them first with God and then also with Jesus.

For if Jesus was going to dwell within them personally, he wouldn't need to send the Holy Spirit to speak to them for him, but that is what he said the Spirit would be given to do.
 

Ok, so according to your TRINITARIAN view...

Indwelling believers is NOT a unique role of the Holy Spirit.

Trinitarians say the fact that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit have distinct roles, that proves they are distinct persons.

So what would you say IS a distinct role of the Holy Spirit?

Are are there none?
 
To empower Christians in their daily lives, unfold the meaning of The Scriptures, give spiritual gifts, guide the Church, etc. etc.
 
To empower Christians in their daily lives, unfold the meaning of The Scriptures, give spiritual gifts, guide the Church, etc. etc.

So you are saying ONLY the Holy Spirit does those things. Right?

God the Father and the Son of God do NOT.

Since my question was...

So what would you say IS a distinct role of the Holy Spirit?
 
13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.
Notice the two verses in bold red underlined above, for Jesus told us that the Spirit would speak on behalf of Jesus, do you see that?
Now I could be wrong but neither one of these verses you have highlighted, above. says anything about the Spirit dwelling in believers as you claim in the following sentence
That means that when Jesus said that he would dwell within them, he was not saying that he would dwell within them personally but rather that he would dwell within them through his connection with the Holy Spirit and that they also would be given to connect them first with God and then also with Jesus.
This is a prime example of heterodox twisting of scripture desperately trying to make it fit their assumptions/presuppositions..
For if Jesus was going to dwell within them personally, he wouldn't need to send the Holy Spirit to speak to them for him, but that is what he said the Spirit would be given to do.

Where does scripture say that Jesus "needed" to do/not do or say/not say anything to carry out His mission?
 
Now I could be wrong but neither one of these verses you have highlighted, above. says anything about the Spirit dwelling in believers as you claim in the following sentence

John 14:17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.

Notice, Jesus said that he was already living with them but soon would be within them and this is part of the context of John 16:13-15, therefore it didn't need to be repeating in John 16:13-15.
This is a prime example of heterodox twisting of scripture desperately trying to make it fit their assumptions/presuppositions..
Well duh, if he sends the Spirit to speak on his behalf, then it goes without saying that his dwelling within the disciples cannot be taken to mean that he would personally dwell within them but rather that he would dwell within them through the Holy Spirit.

For the Holy Spirit is how both he and his disciples had a connection with God and therefore it was also how his disciples had a connection with Jesus and with one another also.

If it was such an example of heterodox twisting of the scriptures, then how is it you couldn't actually refute it OS?

For just saying it doesn't get it but showing that it is false gets it and being Jesus made himself clear, you can't prove it to be false and you know it.


Where does scripture say that Jesus "needed" to do/not do or say/not say anything to carry out His mission?
LOL, if Jesus was going to dwell within them personally and speak to them personally from within them, then he wouldn't have needed to send the Holy Spirit to do that for him and that is just plain Holy Spirit common sense.

Where does it say in the scriptures that God had to become a man in order to redeem men from their sins OS? For that is what you believe and say and also cannot prove from the scriptures and yet here you are arguing with what Jesus himself actually said.
 
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John 14:17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.
Notice, Jesus said that he was already living with them but soon would be within them and this is part of the context of John 16:13-15, therefore it didn't need to be repeating in John 16:13-15.
LOL, if Jesus was going to dwell within them personally and speak to them personally from within them, then he wouldn't have needed to send the Holy Spirit to do that for him and that is just plain Holy Spirit common sense.
Where does it say in the scriptures that God had to become a man in order to redeem men from their sins OS? For that is what you believe and say and also cannot prove from the scriptures and yet here you are arguing with what Jesus himself actually said.
You repeating the same argument over and over and over does not make it any more valid. Because Jesus did or did not do or say something does not mean He "needed" to do it.
Have you ever heard of the Bible? Have you ever read it?
1. The nations will be blessed through Abraham's lineage
(Genesis 12:3). fulfillment(Acts 3:25–26).
2. God's covenant with Isaac's ancestors
(Genesis 17:19). Fulfillment (Romans 9:7).
3. The nations will be blessed through Jacob's offspring
(Genesis 28:14). Fulfillment (Luke 3:34)
4. The scepter will come through Judah
(Genesis 49:10). Fulfillment (Luke 3:33)
5. David's offspring will have an eternal kingdom
(2 Samuel 7:12–13). Fulfillment (Matthew 1:1)
6. A virgin will give birth, and he will be called Immanuel (God with us)
(Isaiah 7:14). Fulfillment (Luke 1:35).
7. The Messiah will end up in Egypt
(Hosea 11:1). Fulfillment (Matthew 2:14–15).
8. The Christ will be born in Bethlehem
(Micah 5:2). Fulfillment (Matthew 2:4–6).
9. Christ's ministry will destroy the devil's work
(Genesis 3:15). Fulfillment (1 John 3:8).
10. Jesus will have a sinless, blemish-free life and ministry
(Exodus 12:5). Fulfillment (Hebrews 9:14)
11. The Messiah will be humbled in order to serve mankind
(Psalm 8:5–6) Fulfillment (Hebrews 2:5–9).
12. Jesus would become the perfect sacrifice
(Psalm 40:6–8). Fulfillment (Hebrews 10:5–10).
+ 43 more.
 
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