Forgotten Trinity: The Son is not the Spirit.

You repeating the same argument over and over and over does not make it any more valid. Because Jesus did or did not do or say something does not mean He "needed" to do it.
Have you ever heard of the Bible? Have you ever read it?
1. The nations will be blessed through Abraham's lineage
(Genesis 12:3). fulfillment(Acts 3:25–26).
2. God's covenant with Isaac's ancestors
(Genesis 17:19). Fulfillment (Romans 9:7).
3. The nations will be blessed through Jacob's offspring
(Genesis 28:14). Fulfillment (Luke 3:34)
4. The scepter will come through Judah
(Genesis 49:10). Fulfillment (Luke 3:33)
5. David's offspring will have an eternal kingdom
(2 Samuel 7:12–13). Fulfillment (Matthew 1:1)
6. A virgin will give birth, and he will be called Immanuel (God with us)
(Isaiah 7:14). Fulfillment (Luke 1:35).
7. The Messiah will end up in Egypt
(Hosea 11:1). Fulfillment (Matthew 2:14–15).
8. The Christ will be born in Bethlehem
(Micah 5:2). Fulfillment (Matthew 2:4–6).
9. Christ's ministry will destroy the devil's work
(Genesis 3:15). Fulfillment (1 John 3:8).
10. Jesus will have a sinless, blemish-free life and ministry
(Exodus 12:5). Fulfillment (Hebrews 9:14)
11. The Messiah will be humbled in order to serve mankind
(Psalm 8:5–6) Fulfillment (Hebrews 2:5–9).
12. Jesus would become the perfect sacrifice
(Psalm 40:6–8). Fulfillment (Hebrews 10:5–10).
+ 43 more.
LOL, and you think the above is something new unto me and is suppose to refute what I showed you from the very words of Jesus himself OS?

What I see the above as, is a way for you to attempt to save face because you cannot answer to what I posted and that way you don't have to acknowledge that you don't know what you are talking about.

That is how I see your above reply as and being it doesn't even have anything whatsoever to do with anything that I said in my reply to you.


Again and concerning your second sentence in your above reply, and just because you say that God had to be sinless man to die for our sins and therefore you twist the scriptures to make them say that he did, doesn't make it so either but that is still what you are doing nevertheless.
 
Last edited:
You repeating the same argument over and over and over does not make it any more valid. Because Jesus did or did not do or say something does not mean He "needed" to do it.
Have you ever heard of the Bible? Have you ever read it?
1. The nations will be blessed through Abraham's lineage
(Genesis 12:3). fulfillment(Acts 3:25–26).
2. God's covenant with Isaac's ancestors
(Genesis 17:19). Fulfillment (Romans 9:7).
3. The nations will be blessed through Jacob's offspring
(Genesis 28:14). Fulfillment (Luke 3:34)
4. The scepter will come through Judah
(Genesis 49:10). Fulfillment (Luke 3:33)
5. David's offspring will have an eternal kingdom
(2 Samuel 7:12–13). Fulfillment (Matthew 1:1)
6. A virgin will give birth, and he will be called Immanuel (God with us)
(Isaiah 7:14). Fulfillment (Luke 1:35).
7. The Messiah will end up in Egypt
(Hosea 11:1). Fulfillment (Matthew 2:14–15).
8. The Christ will be born in Bethlehem
(Micah 5:2). Fulfillment (Matthew 2:4–6).
9. Christ's ministry will destroy the devil's work
(Genesis 3:15). Fulfillment (1 John 3:8).
10. Jesus will have a sinless, blemish-free life and ministry
(Exodus 12:5). Fulfillment (Hebrews 9:14)
11. The Messiah will be humbled in order to serve mankind
(Psalm 8:5–6) Fulfillment (Hebrews 2:5–9).
12. Jesus would become the perfect sacrifice
(Psalm 40:6–8). Fulfillment (Hebrews 10:5–10).
+ 43 more.
By the way, did Jesus need to do all of the above in order for him to fulfill those scriptures and do the will of God as the Messiah for which he was sent OS?

If you answer yes, then you have already contradicted your words in the bold orange above dude.
 
So according to your TRINITARIAN view, this verse...

2 Corinthians 3:17... Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.


...would mean...

2 Corinthians 3:17... Now the Son of God is the Spirit of God, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.
False. The passage is referring to The Spirit of The Lord, i.e. The Holy Spirit.
 
False. The passage is referring to The Spirit of The Lord, i.e. The Holy Spirit.

Just to clarify, which of these statements reflects how you understand 2 Corinthians 3:17?

A) Now the being of the Trinity is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.
B) Now the first Person of the Trinity is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.
C) Now the second Person of the Trinity is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.
D) Now the third Person of the Trinity is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.

It seems like you are saying D, but I would like for you to confirm that.
 
Just to clarify, which of these statements reflects how you understand 2 Corinthians 3:17?

A) Now the being of the Trinity is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.
B) Now the first Person of the Trinity is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.
C) Now the second Person of the Trinity is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.
D) Now the third Person of the Trinity is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.

It seems like you are saying D, but I would like for you to confirm that.
D) iow The Holy Spirit.
 
D) iow The Holy Spirit.


So YOU believe this is what the verse means...

2 Corinthians 3:17... Now the Holy Spirit is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.


Whereas I believe the verse means...

2 Corinthians 3:17... Now Jesus Christ is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.


Here is the original verse...

2 Corinthians 3:17... Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.


What do the rest of you believe?
 
By the way, did Jesus need to do all of the above in order for him to fulfill those scriptures and do the will of God as the Messiah for which he was sent OS?

If you answer yes, then you have already contradicted your words in the bold orange above dude.
Different referents. I was not talking about scripture being fulfilled.
 
LOL, and you think the above is something new unto me and is suppose to refute what I showed you from the very words of Jesus himself OS?
What I see the above as, is a way for you to attempt to save face because you cannot answer to what I posted and that way you don't have to acknowledge that you don't know what you are talking about.
That is how I see your above reply as and being it doesn't even have anything whatsoever to do with anything that I said in my reply to you.

Again and concerning your second sentence in your above reply, and just because you say that God had to be sinless man to die for our sins and therefore you twist the scriptures to make them say that he did, doesn't make it so either but that is still what you are doing nevertheless.
Once again you accuse me twisting scripture. I simply quoted scripture exactly I did not add or subtract anything and I made no comments. Looks like you can't deal with what I post so you hide behind this mantra "twisting scripture."
Does scripture say that the promised Messiah would be a man? Have you read Psalm 49:7-9?
 
Once again you accuse me twisting scripture. I simply quoted scripture exactly I did not add or subtract anything and I made no comments. Looks like you can't deal with what I post so you hide behind this mantra "twisting scripture."
Does scripture say that the promised Messiah would be a man? Have you read Psalm 49:7-9?
LOL, I know all about Psalm 49 and how you twist it out of it's true context to fit your false doctrines but I am not that ignorant about it dude.

For the context is about those who are rich and believe that by their money they can redeem their relatives from death.

Therefore, all that the Psalmist is saying in this Psalm is that a man's soul cannot be redeemed by another man with perishable things such as silver and gold.

Furthermore, Peter gives us a proper understanding of this in 1 Peter 1:18-21.


1 Peter 1:18 For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your ancestors, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect. 20 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake. 21 Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God.

.
 
“The Forgotten Trinity” by James White on page 131…

There are three divine persons, the Father, the Son, and the Spirit. The Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Spirit, and the Spirit is not the Father.


Whereas the Bible says...

2 Corinthians 3:17... Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.


TRINITARIANS, I have two questions for you...

Does "the Lord" in 2 Corinthians 3:17 refer to "the Son of God"?
I say Yes.

Does "the Spirit" in 2 Corinthians 3:17 refer to "the Spirit of God"?
I say Yes.
Here is a commentary on that 2 Corinthian 3:17 that may explain our position on the verse:

Now the Lord is that Spirit
"The Lord", to whom the heart is turned, when the veil is removed, is Jesus Christ; and he is "that Spirit", or "the Spirit": he, as God, is of a spiritual nature and essence; he is a spirit, as God is said to be, ( John 4:24 ) he is the giver of the Spirit of God, and the very life and spirit of the law, without whom as the end of it, it is a mere dead letter: or rather as by Moses in ( 2 Corinthians 3:15 ) is meant, the law of Moses, so by the "Lord" here may be meant the Gospel of Christ: and this is that Spirit, of which the apostles were made ministers, and is said to give life, ( 2 Corinthians 3:6 ) .
John Gill

God Bless
 
Here is a commentary on that 2 Corinthian 3:17 that may explain our position on the verse:

Now the Lord is that Spirit
"The Lord", to whom the heart is turned, when the veil is removed, is Jesus Christ; and he is "that Spirit", or "the Spirit": he, as God, is of a spiritual nature and essence; he is a spirit, as God is said to be, ( John 4:24 ) he is the giver of the Spirit of God, and the very life and spirit of the law, without whom as the end of it, it is a mere dead letter: or rather as by Moses in ( 2 Corinthians 3:15 ) is meant, the law of Moses, so by the "Lord" here may be meant the Gospel of Christ: and this is that Spirit, of which the apostles were made ministers, and is said to give life, ( 2 Corinthians 3:6 ) .
John Gill

God Bless
With this commentary in mind, what do you think of 1 Corinthians 15:45?

Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

I see this as the coinherence of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
 
Here is a commentary on that 2 Corinthian 3:17 that may explain our position on the verse:

Now the Lord is that Spirit
"The Lord", to whom the heart is turned, when the veil is removed, is Jesus Christ; and he is "that Spirit", or "the Spirit": he, as God, is of a spiritual nature and essence; he is a spirit, as God is said to be, ( John 4:24 ) he is the giver of the Spirit of God, and the very life and spirit of the law, without whom as the end of it, it is a mere dead letter: or rather as by Moses in ( 2 Corinthians 3:15 ) is meant, the law of Moses, so by the "Lord" here may be meant the Gospel of Christ: and this is that Spirit, of which the apostles were made ministers, and is said to give life, ( 2 Corinthians 3:6 ) .
John Gill

Then your answers to my questions are...

Does "the Lord" in 2 Corinthians 3:17 refer to "the Son of God"?
I say Yes.
You say Yes, if you agree with Gill's first option that "the Lord" means "Jesus Christ".
You say No, if you agree with Gill's second option that "the Lord" means "the Gospel of Christ".

Does "the Spirit" in 2 Corinthians 3:17 refer to "the Spirit of God"?
I say Yes.
You say No, if you agree with Gill's first option that "the Spirit" means "of a spiritual nature and essence".
You say No, if you agree with Gill's second option that "the Spirit" means "of which the apostles were made ministers".

So @DoctrinesofGraceBapt, which of Gill's two options do YOU personally agree with?

I would like to hear from all the TRINITARIANS on this forum answer the two questions above.

So far I have heard from four TRINITARIANS; @DoctrinesofGraceBapt, @johnny guitar, @civic, and @OldShepherd and NONE of them agree.

That is an example of why I say intense study of the doctrine of the Trinity confuses people more than it helps them.
 
Last edited:
With this commentary in mind, what do you think of 1 Corinthians 15:45?

Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

I see this as the coinherence of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
John Gill says

the last Adam was made a quickening spirit:
by "the last Adam" is meant Jesus Christ, called Adam, because he is really and truly a man, a partaker of the same flesh and blood as the rest of mankind; and because he is the antitype of the first man Adam, who was a figure of him that was to come; and therefore called Adam, for the same reason as he is called David and Solomon: he is said to be "the last", in distinction from the first Adam, with respect to him he stood, (Nwrxa) , last upon the earth, as in ( Job 19:25 ) to which passage some think the apostle here alludes; and because he appeared in the last days in the end of the world, and is the last that shall rise up as a common head and representative of the whole, or any part of mankind: now he is made "a quickening spirit"; which some understand of the Holy Spirit, which filled the human nature of Christ, raised him from the dead, and will quicken our mortal bodies at the last day; others of the divine nature of Christ, to which his flesh, or human nature, was united; and which gave life, rigour, and virtue, to all his actions and sufferings, as man; and by which he was quickened, when put to death in the flesh, and by which he will quicken others another day: though rather I think it is to be understood of his spiritual body, of his body, not as it was made of the virgin, for that was a natural, or an animal one; it was conceived and bred, and born as animal bodies are; it grew and increased, and was nourished with meat and drink, and sleep and rest; and was subject to infirmities, and to death itself, as our bodies be; but it is to be understood of it as raised from the dead, when it was made a spiritual body, for which reason it is called a "spirit": not that it was changed into a spirit, for it still remained flesh and blood; but because it was no more supported in an animal way; nor subject to those weaknesses that animal bodies are, but lives as spirits, or angels do; and a quickening one, not only because it has life itself, but because by virtue of the saints' union to it, as it subsists in the divine person of the Son of God, their bodies will be quickened at the last day, and made like unto it, spiritual bodies; also because he lives in his body as a spiritual one, they shall live in theirs as spiritual ones: and so the apostle shows, that there is a spiritual, as well as an animal body; that as the first man's body, even before the fall, was an animal or natural one; the last Adam's body upon his resurrection is a spiritual and life giving one, as the Syriac version renders it; so the Cabalistic writers speak of ``Adam; who is the holy and supreme, who rules over all, and gives spirit and life to all.''
 
Then your answers to my questions are...

Does "the Lord" in 2 Corinthians 3:17 refer to "the Son of God"?
I say Yes.
You say Yes, if you agree with Gill's first option that "the Lord" means "Jesus Christ".
You say No, if you agree with Gill's second option that "the Lord" means "the Gospel of Christ".

Does "the Spirit" in 2 Corinthians 3:17 refer to "the Spirit of God"?
I say Yes.
You say No, if you agree with Gill's first option that "the Spirit" means "of a spiritual nature and essence".
You say No, if you agree with Gill's second option that "the Spirit" means "of which the apostles were made ministers".

So @DoctrinesofGraceBapt, which of Gill's two options do YOU personally agree with?

I would like to hear from all the TRINITARIANS on this forum answer the two questions above.

So far I have heard from four TRINITARIANS; @DoctrinesofGraceBapt, @johnny guitar, @civic, and @OldShepherd and NONE of them agree.

That is an example of why I say intense study of the doctrine of the Trinity confuses people more than it helps them.
Does it really matter what my opinion is? The real question is do you have the wherewithal to deal with the complexities found in the text, or will you continue these meaningless games?

God Bless
 
Does it really matter what my opinion is?

I would hope that it mattered to YOU that intense study of the doctrine of the Trinity has made it so that you NO LONGER KNOW the answers to the two questions in the OP...

Does "the Lord" in 2 Corinthians 3:17 refer to "the Son of God"?
I say Yes.

Does "the Spirit" in 2 Corinthians 3:17 refer to "the Spirit of God"?
I say Yes.

2 Corinthians 3:17... Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.

But you are note alone. No two Trinitarians have been able to give the same answers to the questions yet.
 
I would hope that it mattered to YOU that intense study of the doctrine of the Trinity has made it so that you NO LONGER KNOW the answers to the two questions in the OP...

Nope, it doesn't matter to me in the least. I am looking at your replies as that of a troll who doesn't really care what anyone actual position is anyway. So, why should I care to answer your question or think enough about your questions as to answer them?
 
Nope, it doesn't matter to me in the least. I am looking at your replies as that of a troll who doesn't really care what anyone actual position is anyway. So, why should I care to answer your question or think enough about your questions as to answer them?

I encourage you to study so that YOU CAN answer these and other questions...

Does "the Lord" in 2 Corinthians 3:17 refer to "the Son of God"?

Does "the Spirit" in 2 Corinthians 3:17 refer to "the Spirit of God"?


2 Timothy 2:15... Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

1 Peter 3:15... But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:
 
I encourage you to study so that YOU CAN answer these and other questions...

Does "the Lord" in 2 Corinthians 3:17 refer to "the Son of God"?

Does "the Spirit" in 2 Corinthians 3:17 refer to "the Spirit of God"?


2 Timothy 2:15... Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

1 Peter 3:15... But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

I've already answered these. Moving on.
 
So YOU believe this is what the verse means...

2 Corinthians 3:17... Now the Holy Spirit is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.


Whereas I believe the verse means...

2 Corinthians 3:17... Now Jesus Christ is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.


Here is the original verse...

2 Corinthians 3:17... Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.


What do the rest of you believe?
 
Back
Top