Forgotten Trinity: The Son is not the Spirit.

[OldShepherd]

LOL, I know all about Psalm 49 and how you twist it out of it's true context to fit your false doctrines but I am not that ignorant about it dude.

For the context is about those who are rich and believe that by their money they can redeem their relatives from death.

Once again the meaningless mantra. That is all you have. "you twist it out of it's true context", "you twist it out of it's true context", "you twist it out of it's true context",
You are the one interpreting Psalm 49 Out-Of-Context.

Jewish Publication Society Psalms 49:7-10​

7 No man can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him -​

8 For too costly is the redemption of their soul, and must be let alone for ever -​

9 That he should still live alway, that he should not see the pit.​

10 For he seeth that wise men die, the fool and the brutish together perish, and leave their wealth to others.​

If the psalmist was only talking about the rich why would he include the fool and the brutish? Note vs. 7 "No man can" it does not read "no 'rich man'"

 

[Yahchristian]

I have often said that intense study of the doctrine of the Trinity confuses people more than it helps them.

Here is another perfect example.

The three TRINITARIANS below who HAVE made an intense study of the doctrine of the Trinity CANNOT agree on who/what "the Lord" highlighted below refers to.

Whereas I expect if you go to Church Sunday and ask three people who have NOT made an intense study of the doctrine of the Trinity they WILL agree that it refers to Jesus.

Does "the Lord" in 2 Corinthians 3:17 refer to "the Son of God"?[/B][/COLOR]

2 Corinthians 3:17... Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.

NO! I told you it refers to The Holy Spirit.

Lord refers to the Son.

the "Lord" here may be meant the Gospel of Christ

 

[Yahweh will increase]

Once again the meaningless mantra. That is all you have. "you twist it out of it's true context", "you twist it out of it's true context", "you twist it out of it's true context",
You are the one interpreting Psalm 49 Out-Of-Context.

Jewish Publication Society Psalms 49:7-10​

7 No man can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him -​

8 For too costly is the redemption of their soul, and must be let alone for ever -​

9 That he should still live alway, that he should not see the pit.​

10 For he seeth that wise men die, the fool and the brutish together perish, and leave their wealth to others.​

If the psalmist was only talking about the rich why would he include the fool and the brutish? Note vs. 7 "No man can" it does not read "no 'rich man'"

First off, the context doesn't start at verse 7 dude but right in that very first verse, instead.

The Foolishness of Trusting in Riches.​

For the music director. A Psalm of the sons of Korah.​

49 Hear this, all peoples;
Listen, all inhabitants of the world,
2 Both low and high,
Rich and poor together.
3 My mouth will speak wisdom,
And the meditation of my heart will be understanding.
4 I will incline my ear to a proverb;
I will [a]express my riddle on the harp.
5 Why should I fear in days of adversity,
When the injustice of those who betray me surrounds me,
6 Those who trust in their wealth
And boast in the abundance of their riches?
7 No one can by any means redeem another
Or give God a ransom for him—
8 For the redemption of his soul is priceless,
And he should cease imagining forever—
9 That he might live on eternally,
That he might not undergo decay.
10 For he sees that even wise people die;
The foolish and the stupid alike perish
And leave their wealth to others.



The point of the Psalm, is that the rich think that they can buy anything with their riches and he is simply telling all that riches cannot redeem a man from death with all of that money and that is because it is the wrong kind of payment for the redemption of a human soul.

For God's righteous requirement was that only the blood of perfect human sacrifice could redeem the soul's of sinners and of which at that time, none existed in the earth, not until God himself sent Jesus to be that perfect human sacrifice.

Now concerning your bold red above, the question should be, in what way does he include the wise and the fool and the brutish dude?

Here is your answer, he includes them only as those who die and perish and just like all men do and none of them can be redeemed by another man's silver or gold or wealth of any sort, for neither silver nor gold cannot redeem a man's soul because the cost of it's redemption is too great.

For God in his righteousness, requires the death and the blood of a perfect man to pay for their redemption and that man is Jesus and just like Peter told us in 1 Peter 1:18-21.

1 Peter 1:18-21 New American Standard Bible

18 knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers, 19 but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ. 20 For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you 21 who through Him are believers in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

No doubt Peter was thinking of Psalm 49 when he wrote the above also. ​

The passage does not say that no man period can do it or that it requires a God man dude and that is what you in your false doctrine and human reasoning want to make it say, but it cannot be forced to say what you want it to at all period.

In fact, Paul in Romans 5:12-21, makes it clear that because it was by one man's disobedience that all men become sinners, therefore it has to be by one perfect sinless man, that many are redeemed and made righteous therefore.

1 John 4:1-4 says the same thing also and that is why Jesus had to be sent in the same human flesh that Adam had before he sinned, other wise Jesus could not be the Christ and that is why John called any spirit that doesn't confess that Jesus came in the flesh an antichrist.

Therefore Jesus could not be a God man, for Adam wasn't a God man but a real man of flesh and blood, for anything more or less than a true human being and Jesus had to resist the same temptations that all men are tempted with also and that means that they would have to have an effect on him just like they did with Adam and Eve before they sinned.

If there was no pull against the will of Jesus to continue to obey God, then the sacrifice of Jesus wouldn't have paid for our sins.

That is why the book of Hebrews tells us that he was tempted in all ways like we are and yet without sin and also that he suffered when tempted and which means that there was a pull to do contrary to what God wanted him to but that he resisted it and continued to obey God.

 

[The Celt]

Nevertheless, when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away. Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. 2 Corinthians 3: 16 – 18

“Now the Lord is that Spirit” is referring to the Lord God of the Israelites. In verses, seven to seventeen Paul is speaking about the children of Israel. Therefore, according to the context, he was speaking about the Lord their God. And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God. Luke 1:16 The Archangel Gabriel said this to Zacharias about his son John the Baptist. He was sent to the children of Israel and not to the Gentiles to whom Paul was sent. Paul wrote that to prove the point that he was making in verse six. Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. In verse eighteen Paul reminds them that both Jewish and Gentile Christians are transformed in their spirits, by the Holy Spirit and not by the Law of Moses, into the image of God as He intended humans to become.

And some of them were men of Cyprus and Cyrene, which, when they came to Antioch, spake unto the Grecians, preaching the Lord Jesus. And the hand of the Lord was with them: and a great number believed, and turned unto the Lord. Acts 11: 20 & 21 Some Jewish converts traveled to Antioch where they preached to Gentiles. The Lord in this verse is obviously the Lord Jesus Christ, who is God the Son since He is mentioned in verse twenty.

 

[Yahchristian]

The Lord in this verse is obviously the Lord Jesus Christ, who is God the Son since He is mentioned in verse twenty.

You answered the first question, now can you answer the second question ...

Does "the Lord" in 2 Corinthians 3:17 refer to "the Son of God"?
I say Yes.
You say Yes.

Does "the Spirit" in 2 Corinthians 3:17 refer to "the Spirit of God"?
I say Yes.

2 Corinthians 3:17... Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.

 

[The Celt]

You answered the first question, now can you answer the second question ...

Does "the Lord" in 2 Corinthians 3:17 refer to "the Son of God"?
I say Yes.
You say Yes.

Does "the Spirit" in 2 Corinthians 3:17 refer to "the Spirit of God"?
I say Yes.

2 Corinthians 3:17... Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.

The sentence which you quoted was about Acts 20:11 and not 2 Corinthians 3:17. In Acts, the Jewish Christians were preaching to Heathens about the Lord Jesus. The Lord Jesus is who they turned to in verse 12. Verse 17 in 2 Corinthians is not speaking about the Lord Jesus Christ. In verses 17 and 18 Paul is speaking about The Lord God Jehovah, who is Triune, and the Holy Spirit. He was not speaking about God the Son or the Lord Jesus Christ in this verse. From verse 7 through to verse 17 of 2 Corinthians 3 Paul is only speaking about his fellow countrymen, the Jews. The pronoun ‘it’ in verse 16 is referring to the Israeli folk and not to Christians in general. Therefore, according to the context, Paul mentions the God of the folk Israel, who was known as ‘the Lord’, in verse 17 and NOT the Lord Jesus Christ. I am not agreeing with you.

I know that this interpretation may sound strange to you. Everyone thinks that the Lord Jesus Christ is mentioned in verse 17 but that is not the case if you consider the context from verses 6 to 16 of chapter 3. Which people seem to ignore when they interpret this verse. Paul is speaking about the Israelites and comparing the Law of Moses and the Holy Spirit. Or the Old and New Testaments.

Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. 2 Cor. 3:6

The letter here is the Law of Moses. The Spirit that is mentioned in verse 17 is 'the Spirit of the living God’. How do I know that? Paul mentions Him in verse 3 of this chapter.

Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart. Verse 3

What Paul was saying to the Corinthians in verses 17 and 18 is what he said to the Roman Christians.

But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter. Romans 7:6

The point that Paul is making in chapter 3 is that we cannot please God or obtain a degree of righteousness by keeping the Law of God in the flesh, as the Jews tried to do. The sanctification of the Spirit enables us to keep the Law of God in order to please the Father and not to establish our own righteousness. The Lord Jesus Christ has achieved this perfect righteousness for us and it is given to us by God the Father. Paul also mentioned that to the Romans.

That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit. Romans 8:4

In verse 18 Paul is reminding the Corinthians that the ‘glory of God’ is more evident in Christians because of the guidance of the Holy Spirit than it was on the face of Moses after he received the Ten Commandments that were written on a stone tablet. Therefore, the apostles do not need any commendation to give to them because the success that they achieved with the Corinthians is the only commendation that they need.

Please feel free to accept or reject what I have said. This is my interpretation of verse 17 and I am aware that not many Christians would agree with me. I am a Celt and I have difficulties in explaining myself in a concise form so please excuse this longer version.

 

[OldShepherd]

Nevertheless, when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away. Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. 2 Corinthians 3: 16 – 18
“Now the Lord is that Spirit” is referring to the Lord God of the Israelites. In verses, seven to seventeen Paul is speaking about the children of Israel. Therefore, according to the context, he was speaking about the Lord their God. And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God. Luke 1:16 The Archangel Gabriel said this to Zacharias about his son John the Baptist. He was sent to the children of Israel and not to the Gentiles to whom Paul was sent. Paul wrote that to prove the point that he was making in verse six. Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. In verse eighteen Paul reminds them that both Jewish and Gentile Christians are transformed in their spirits, by the Holy Spirit and not by the Law of Moses, into the image of God as He intended humans to become.
And some of them were men of Cyprus and Cyrene, which, when they came to Antioch, spake unto the Grecians, preaching the Lord Jesus. And the hand of the Lord was with them: and a great number believed, and turned unto the Lord. Acts 11: 20 & 21 Some Jewish converts traveled to Antioch where they preached to Gentiles. The Lord in this verse is obviously the Lord Jesus Christ, who is God the Son since He is mentioned in verse twenty.

2 Corinthians 3:13-17​

13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:​

14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.​

15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.​

16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.​

17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.​

The Lord referred to vs. 17 is Christ.
vs. 14 the veil, vs. 13, "is done away in Christ."
vs. 16 when it [Israel] turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
vs. 17 the Lord is that Spirit:

 

[The Celt]

2 Corinthians 3:13-17​

13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:​

14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.​

15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.​

16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.​

17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.​

The Lord referred to vs. 17 is Christ.
vs. 14 the veil, vs. 13, "is done away in Christ."
vs. 16 when it [Israel] turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
vs. 17 the Lord is that Spirit:

Thank you for your comment. I understand your reasoning but do still disagree with you. The question that I asked myself was; who has taken away the veil? Paul does mention in verse 16 that the veil shall be taken away, which you also quote.
You assume that it is Christ, or God the Son, who takes away the veil. The reason you give is that Paul says ‘which veil is done away in Christ’ in verse 14. So who takes away the veil? My opinion is that it is not the Lord Jesus Christ who takes away the veil from their hearts but the Holy Spirit.
How does He accomplish that task? God made a covenant with the children of Israel through Moses. At first, the Israelites received the ‘Law of the Covenant’ shortly after His appearance to them on Mount Sinai. A copy of this was placed in the Ark of the Covenant. At a later date, God gave to them the Law of Moses which was to regulate their life in the Promised Land. God has replaced this covenant with a new and far better one. The mediator of this newer covenant was the Lord Jesus Christ. Now consider this. God sent John the Baptist and Jesus of Nazareth to the children of Israel. Jesus met with very few heathens during His ministry. It was the apostles who were sent to the Gentiles with the gospel.
From verse 7 to verse 16 of chapter 3 Paul is only speaking about the children of Israel or the Jews. Therefore, it is only right to assume that the Lord in verse 17 is the God of the Jews, who is also known as the Lord. The Spirit that is mentioned is ‘the Spirit of the living God’ which Paul mentions in verse three. God the Holy Spirit is mentioned in verses 17 and 18.

In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.
For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. 2 Cor. 4:4 - 6

It is through the Gospel of Jesus Christ that the Holy Spirit takes the veil of unbelief away from the Jews. The Holy Spirit arranges for them to hear ‘the glorious gospel of Christ’ and enables them to accept and act upon it and to place their trust in the atoning work of Christ through faith. This is how the veil is done away in Christ. By accepting the New Covenant, and its mediator, the Lord Jesus Christ, they were able to turn back to their God. Paul begins verse 18 with ‘But we all’ whereby he meant Jewish and Gentile Christians. At the end of this verse, Paul says that it is 'even as by the Spirit of the Lord'. It is the Holy Spirit who is the only one that is active.

 

[OldShepherd]

Thank you for your comment. I understand your reasoning but do still disagree with you. The question that I asked myself was; who has taken away the veil? Paul does mention in verse 16 that the veil shall be taken away, which you also quote.
You assume that it is Christ, or God the Son, who takes away the veil. The reason you give is that Paul says ‘which veil is done away in Christ’ in verse 14. So who takes away the veil? My opinion is that it is not the Lord Jesus Christ who takes away the veil from their hearts but the Holy Spirit.
How does He accomplish that task? God made a covenant with the children of Israel through Moses. At first, the Israelites received the ‘Law of the Covenant’ shortly after His appearance to them on Mount Sinai. A copy of this was placed in the Ark of the Covenant. At a later date, God gave to them the Law of Moses which was to regulate their life in the Promised Land. God has replaced this covenant with a new and far better one. The mediator of this newer covenant was the Lord Jesus Christ. Now consider this. God sent John the Baptist and Jesus of Nazareth to the children of Israel. Jesus met with very few heathens during His ministry. It was the apostles who were sent to the Gentiles with the gospel.
From verse 7 to verse 16 of chapter 3 Paul is only speaking about the children of Israel or the Jews. Therefore, it is only right to assume that the Lord in verse 17 is the God of the Jews, who is also known as the Lord. The Spirit that is mentioned is ‘the Spirit of the living God’ which Paul mentions in verse three. God the Holy Spirit is mentioned in verses 17 and 18.
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.
For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. 2 Cor. 4:4 - 6
It is through the Gospel of Jesus Christ that the Holy Spirit takes the veil of unbelief away from the Jews. The Holy Spirit arranges for them to hear ‘the glorious gospel of Christ’ and enables them to accept and act upon it and to place their trust in the atoning work of Christ through faith. This is how the veil is done away in Christ. By accepting the New Covenant, and its mediator, the Lord Jesus Christ, they were able to turn back to their God. Paul begins verse 18 with ‘But we all’ whereby he meant Jewish and Gentile Christians. At the end of this verse, Paul says that it is 'even as by the Spirit of the Lord'. It is the Holy Spirit who is the only one that is active.

Typical heterodox ploy. A piece of a verse here and a piece of a verse there and anyone can make the Bible say almost anything they want it to.
We need only read this one passage, in context, to know what it says.

2 Corinthians 3:13-17
13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.​

The Lord referred to vs. 17 is Christ.
vs. 14 the veil, [vs. 13], "is done away in Christ."
vs. 16 when it [Israel] shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
Thus vs. 17 the Lord is that Spirit:
There is one subject in vss. 14 and 16 "doing away with the veil"/"taking away the veil."
Vs. 14 the veil is taken away in Christ. This is paralleled in vs. 16 when "[Israel] shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away." "In Christ" and "turn to the lord" are convertible terms which has one result the veil being removed.

 

[guest1]

“The Forgotten Trinity” by James White on page 131…

There are three divine persons, the Father, the Son, and the Spirit. The Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Spirit, and the Spirit is not the Father.


Whereas the Bible says...

2 Corinthians 3:17... Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.


TRINITARIANS, I have two questions for you...

Does "the Lord" in 2 Corinthians 3:17 refer to "the Son of God"?
I say Yes.

Does "the Spirit" in 2 Corinthians 3:17 refer to "the Spirit of God"?
I say Yes.


Here is an overview of what I believe...


GOD is spirit and is the only one who is eternal. GOD is also in the universe as spirit and as a human. GOD in the universe as spirit is called the Spirit of God, GOD in the universe as a human is called the Son of God, and eternal GOD is called God the Father.

GOD…
English Bibles and I use the word GOD (with all caps) to signify the underlying Hebrew word is YHWH (a proper name) rather than Elohim (a title).
Exodus 23:17 ESV… Three times in the year shall all your males appear before the Lord GOD.

…is spirit…
John 4:24 ESV… God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.

…and is the only one who is eternal...
Deuteronomy 33:27 ESV… The eternal God is your dwelling place, and underneath are the everlasting arms. And he thrust out the enemy before you and said, ‘Destroy.’
Isaiah 37:16 ESV… “O LORD of hosts, God of Israel, enthroned above the cherubim, you are the God, you alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth; you have made heaven and earth.

…GOD is also in the universe as spirit…
Genesis 1:2 ESV… The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

…and as a human...
1 Timothy 3:16 ESV… Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery of godliness: He was manifested in the flesh, vindicated by the Spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed among the nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory.

…GOD in the universe as spirit is called the Spirit of God…
Genesis 1:2 ESV… The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

…GOD in the universe as a human is called the Son of God…
Luke 1:35 ESV… And the angel answered her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy—the Son of God.

…and eternal GOD is called God the Father.
1 Corinthians 8:6 ESV… yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.

White is correct and your questions ad nauseam do not change those facts .

 

[guest1]

2 Corinthians 3:13-17​

13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:​

14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.​

15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.​

16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.​

17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.​

The Lord referred to vs. 17 is Christ.
vs. 14 the veil, vs. 13, "is done away in Christ."
vs. 16 when it [Israel] turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
vs. 17 the Lord is that Spirit:

Agreed brother !!!

 

[johnny guitar]

Typical heterodox ploy. A piece of a verse here and a piece of a verse there and anyone can make the Bible say almost anything they want it to.
We need only read this one passage, in context, to know what it says.

2 Corinthians 3:13-17​

13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:​

14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.​

15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.​

16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.​

17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.​

The Lord referred to vs. 17 is Christ.
vs. 14 the veil, [vs. 13], "is done away in Christ."
vs. 16 when it [Israel] shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
Thus vs. 17 the Lord is that Spirit:
There is one subject in vss. 14 and 16 "doing away with the veil"/"taking away the veil."
Vs. 14 the veil is taken away in Christ. This is paralleled in vs. 16 when "[Israel] shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away." "In Christ" and "turn to the lord" are convertible terms which has one result the veil being removed.

I cannot concur with this opinion. Jesus is NEVER referred to as The Spirit of The Lord.
That title always refers to The Holy Spirit.

 

[OldShepherd]

I cannot concur with this opinion. Jesus is NEVER referred to as The Spirit of The Lord.
That title always refers to The Holy Spirit.

Be that as it may, see my post immediately following yours.

 

[johnny guitar]

Be that as it may, see my post immediately following yours.

There seems to be no general consensus among Christians as to Whom The Spirit refers to in 2 Cor. 3:17.
The majority I have known believe The referent to be The Holy Spirit; others, such as yourself, to Jesus Christ.
I don't believe it should be a contentious matter though.
The marginal reference in my Bible says The Holy Spirit.

 

[OldShepherd]

There seems to be no general consensus among Christians as to Whom The Spirit refers to in 2 Cor. 3:17.
The majority I have known believe The referent to be The Holy Spirit; others, such as yourself, to Jesus Christ.
I don't believe it should be a contentious matter though.
The marginal reference in my Bible says The Holy Spirit.

My laptop went haywire and I lost my previous post.

ESV 2 Corinthians 3:14
14 But their minds were hardened. For to this day, when they read the old covenant, that same veil remains unlifted, because only through Christ is it taken away.
NIV 2 Corinthians 3:14
14 But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away.
ISV 2 Corinthians 3:14
14 However, their minds were hardened, for to this day the same veil is still there when they read the old covenant. Only in union with the Messiah is that veil removed.
NET 2 Cor 3:14 But their minds were closed.29 For to this very day, the same veil remains when they hear the old covenant read.30 It has not been removed because only in Christ is it taken away.31
EOB 2 Cor 3:14 In this case, their minds were hardened, because to this very day, at the reading of the old covenant, the same veil remains since only in Christ does it pass away.[1]​

​

---

[1] Cleenewerck, L. (Ed.). (2011). The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible: New Testament (2 Co 3:13–14). Laurent A. Cleenewerck.
​

Greek has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox Church. Who better than the many native Greek speaking scholars who translated the EOB, Eastern Orthodox Bible. quoted above, know the meaning of Greek words..

 

[johnny guitar]

My laptop went haywire and I lost my previous post.

ESV 2 Corinthians 3:14​

14 But their minds were hardened. For to this day, when they read the old covenant, that same veil remains unlifted, because only through Christ is it taken away.​

NIV 2 Corinthians 3:14​

14 But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away.​

ISV 2 Corinthians 3:14​

14 However, their minds were hardened, for to this day the same veil is still there when they read the old covenant. Only in union with the Messiah is that veil removed.​

NET 2 Cor 3:14 But their minds were closed.29 For to this very day, the same veil remains when they hear the old covenant read.30 It has not been removed because only in Christ is it taken away.31​

EOB 2 Cor 3:14 In this case, their minds were hardened, because to this very day, at the reading of the old covenant, the same veil remains since only in Christ does it pass away.[1]​

​

​

​

---

[1] Cleenewerck, L. (Ed.). (2011). The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible: New Testament (2 Co 3:13–14). Laurent A. Cleenewerck.​

​

Greek has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox Church. Who better than the many native Greek speaking scholars who translated the EOB, Eastern Orthodox Bible. quoted above, know the meaning of Greek words..

The key verse is 3:17 which fairly shouts The Holy Spirit.
However I do not think either side should be dogmatic concerning this passage as NO major doctrine of Christianity is affected whichever view we hold.

 

[The Celt]

Who is it that takes away the veil and why has that been done? The Holy Spirit is the one who takes away the veil and not the Lord Jesus Christ. The term ‘Spirit of the Lord’ is how the Jews refer to the Holy Spirit. This is the only place that Paul mentions this term in all of his epistles. Peter accused Ananias of lying to the Holy Spirit but accused his wife of lying to the Spirit of the Lord. Luke mentions in Acts that ‘the Spirit of the Lord caught Philip away’ after he baptized the Ethiopian eunuch who was previously converted to Judaism. As Jesus was attending the synagogue in his home town of Nazareth he read from Isaiah and began with the words ‘The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me’. This term is used frequently in the Old Testament. Paul used this term for the Holy Spirit because he was speaking about his fellow Jews. The reason for the existence of a veil is because ‘their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament.’ ch. 3 vs. 14
What then was the reason for the Holy Spirit to remove the veil? In ch. 3 vs. 6 Paul refers to himself and others as ‘ministers of the new covenant’. In the next two verses Paul refers to the old covenant as the ‘ministry of death’ and the new covenant as the ‘ministry of the Spirit’. 2 Cor. 3: 7 & 8 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? NKJV. The Holy Spirit removed the veil upon their hearts, vs. 15, so that they may see the ‘glorious gospel of the blessed God’. 1 Tim. 1:11
The Gentiles were expected to ‘turn to God from idols to serve the living and true God’. 1 Thess. 1: 9 It was expected from the Jews that they enter into a new covenantal relationship with their God. The Holy Spirit removed the veil from their hearts so that the Jews could recognize and accept the New Covenant in the gospel of Christ and its mediator who is the Lord Jesus Christ. This, however, only happened to those who were elected to eternal life. Please read 2 Cor. 4:3 – 6.
In 2 Corinthians 3 Paul mentions a New Testament, the Ten Commandments in stone, the children of Israel, Moses, an Old Testament, and the Spirit of the Lord. These obviously have to do with the Jewish people. It follows then that the words ‘the Lord’ are referring to the Lord God of Israel. God was even called that by the Jews during the lifetime of the Messiah, the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[OldShepherd]

Who is it that takes away the veil and why has that been done? The Holy Spirit is the one who takes away the veil and not the Lord Jesus Christ. The term ‘Spirit of the Lord’ is how the Jews refer to the Holy Spirit. This is the only place that Paul mentions this term in all of his epistles. Peter accused Ananias of lying to the Holy Spirit but accused his wife of lying to the Spirit of the Lord. Luke mentions in Acts that ‘the Spirit of the Lord caught Philip away’ after he baptized the Ethiopian eunuch who was previously converted to Judaism. As Jesus was attending the synagogue in his home town of Nazareth he read from Isaiah and began with the words ‘The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me’. This term is used frequently in the Old Testament. Paul used this term for the Holy Spirit because he was speaking about his fellow Jews. The reason for the existence of a veil is because ‘their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament.’ ch. 3 vs. 14
What then was the reason for the Holy Spirit to remove the veil? In ch. 3 vs. 6 Paul refers to himself and others as ‘ministers of the new covenant’. In the next two verses Paul refers to the old covenant as the ‘ministry of death’ and the new covenant as the ‘ministry of the Spirit’. 2 Cor. 3: 7 & 8 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? NKJV. The Holy Spirit removed the veil upon their hearts, vs. 15, so that they may see the ‘glorious gospel of the blessed God’. 1 Tim. 1:11
The Gentiles were expected to ‘turn to God from idols to serve the living and true God’. 1 Thess. 1: 9 It was expected from the Jews that they enter into a new covenantal relationship with their God. The Holy Spirit removed the veil from their hearts so that the Jews could recognize and accept the New Covenant in the gospel of Christ and its mediator who is the Lord Jesus Christ. This, however, only happened to those who were elected to eternal life. Please read 2 Cor. 4:3 – 6.
In 2 Corinthians 3 Paul mentions a New Testament, the Ten Commandments in stone, the children of Israel, Moses, an Old Testament, and the Spirit of the Lord. These obviously have to do with the Jewish people. It follows then that the words ‘the Lord’ are referring to the Lord God of Israel. God was even called that by the Jews during the lifetime of the Messiah, the Lord Jesus Christ.

This explanation would be quite reasonable if Paul was writing to a synagogue of Jews but he was not, he was writing to a church comprised of Jews and gentiles. Gentiles would have little, if any, knowledge of what the Jews might have understood when Paul referred to "the Lord."
Now read 2 Corinthians 3:13-17 again without the presupposition what Jews might understand when Paul said "the Lord." Unlike you and I they did not have a little electronic device in their hands where they could instantly call up all the OT verses you alluded to.

 

[The Celt]

This explanation would be quite reasonable if Paul was writing to a synagogue of Jews but he was not, he was writing to a church comprised of Jews and gentiles. Gentiles would have little, if any, knowledge of what the Jews might have understood when Paul referred to "the Lord."

Although Paul was not writing to a synagogue of Jews he was writing to Jews, along with many Gentiles, who used to attend the synagogue in Corinth. After their conversion, they attended the church.

After these things, Paul departed from Athens and came to Corinth. And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks. Acts 18: 1 & 4

Therefore, they would have had extensive knowledge of the Old Covenant. Gentiles also attended synagogues because they believed in and worshiped the Lord God of Israel. Paul also preached to God-fearing Jews and Gentiles in a synagogue in Antioch in Pisidia.

16 Then Paul stood up, and beckoning with his hand said, Men of Israel, and ye that fear God, give audience. 26Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent. 42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath. 48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. Acts 13: 14 – 48.

These Gentiles also knew of the history of the Jews and prophesies of the Messiah. The same thing also happened in Iconium.

And it came to pass in Iconium, that they went both together into the synagogue of the Jews, and so spake, that a great multitude both of the Jews and also of the Greeks believed. Acts 14:1

Paul and Silas also taught the Jews and Gentiles about Jesus being the Christ from the Old Testament in Thessalonica.

Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews: And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures, Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ. And some of them believed, and consorted with Paul and Silas, and of the devout Greeks a great multitude, and of the chief women not a few. Acts 17: 1 – 4

Since this was the custom of Paul why then should he not mention such things in a letter to a church that was brought into being through his ministry, as he already mentioned in 2 Corinthians 3? Selective readings out of the Law and the Prophets were read every Sabbath in every synagogue and Gentiles who attended the synagogue on a regular basis would have known quite a lot about Jewish beliefs. Jews were also well versed in their Holy Scriptures to the extent that some could also recite whole books from memory. I’m sure Jews would have had no difficulty in finding scriptures relating to the term ‘Spirit of the Lord’, just like Jesus did not have. The Jewish Scriptures did not have their books divided into chapter and verse which makes it all the more remarkable.

 

[OldShepherd]

Although Paul was not writing to a synagogue of Jews he was writing to Jews, along with many Gentiles, who used to attend the synagogue in Corinth. After their conversion, they attended the church.
After these things, Paul departed from Athens and came to Corinth. And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks. Acts 18: 1 & 4
Therefore, they would have had extensive knowledge of the Old Covenant. Gentiles also attended synagogues because they believed in and worshiped the Lord God of Israel. Paul also preached to God-fearing Jews and Gentiles in a synagogue in Antioch in Pisidia.
16 Then Paul stood up, and beckoning with his hand said, Men of Israel, and ye that fear God, give audience. 26Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent. 42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath. 48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. Acts 13: 14 – 48.
These Gentiles also knew of the history of the Jews and prophesies of the Messiah. The same thing also happened in Iconium.
And it came to pass in Iconium, that they went both together into the synagogue of the Jews, and so spake, that a great multitude both of the Jews and also of the Greeks believed. Acts 14:1
Paul and Silas also taught the Jews and Gentiles about Jesus being the Christ from the Old Testament in Thessalonica.
Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews: And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures, Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ. And some of them believed, and consorted with Paul and Silas, and of the devout Greeks a great multitude, and of the chief women not a few. Acts 17: 1 – 4
Since this was the custom of Paul why then should he not mention such things in a letter to a church that was brought into being through his ministry, as he already mentioned in 2 Corinthians 3? Selective readings out of the Law and the Prophets were read every Sabbath in every synagogue and Gentiles who attended the synagogue on a regular basis would have known quite a lot about Jewish beliefs. Jews were also well versed in their Holy Scriptures to the extent that some could also recite whole books from memory. I’m sure Jews would have had no difficulty in finding scriptures relating to the term ‘Spirit of the Lord’, just like Jesus did not have. The Jewish Scriptures did not have their books divided into chapter and verse which makes it all the more remarkable.

That sounds reasonable but Jewish history does not reflect that. When we first encounter Paul he is persecuting Christians. That persecution never ended.

Jewish Encyclopia-Gentiles
Gentiles May Not Be Taught the Torah.
Inasmuch as the Jews had their own distinct jurisdiction, it would have been unwise to reveal their laws to the Gentiles, for such knowledge might have operated against the Jews in their opponents' courts. Hence the Talmud prohibited the teaching to a Gentile of the Torah, "the inheritance of the congregation of Jacob" (Deut. xxxiii. 4). R. Johanan says of one so teaching: "Such a person deserves death" (an idiom used to express indignation). "It is like placing an obstacle before the blind" (Sanh. 59a; Ḥag. 13a). …
Resh Lakish (d. 278) said, "A Gentile observing the Sabbath deserves death" (Sanh. 58b). This refers to a Gentile who accepted the seven laws of the Noachidæ, inasmuch as "the Sabbath is a sign between God and Israel alone," ... Rabbina, who lived about 150 years after the Christians had changed the day of rest to Sunday, could not quite understand the principle underlying Resh Lakish's law, and, commenting upon it, added: "not even on Mondays [is the Gentile allowed to rest]"; intimating that the mandate given to the Noachidæ that "day and night shall not cease" ((Heb.)Lo yshabti = "have no rest ") should be taken in a literal sense (Gen. viii. 22)—probably to discourage general idleness
"The Torah outlawed the issue of a Gentile as that of a beast" (Miḳ. viii. 4, referring to Ezek. l.c.)
Johanan bar Nappaḥa … the Torah was given as a heritage to Israel, a non-Israelite deserves death if he studies it [Torah](Sanh. 59a).
Gamaliel [Was Paul’s tutor Acts 22:3] also expresses himself to the same effect, adding that the Gentiles, by their impure motive, incur the penalty of Gehenna. Eleazar of Modi'im sides with him, saying that "the Gentiles practice benevolence merely to taunt Israel."
Eliezer b. Hyrcanus is …, the mind of every non-Jew is always intent upon idolatry (Giṭ. 45b). The cattle of a heathen is unfit for sacrifices ('Ab. Zarah 23b). Explaining Prov. xiv. 34, he maintains that the non-Jews only practise charity in order to make for themselves a name (B. B. 10b; Pesiḳ. 12b; Gamaliel [Was Paul’s tutor Acts 22:3] is credited with the same opinion in B. B. 10b).
Joshua b. Hananiah, … as a rule Gentiles cling to vain things and are rejected (Prov. xxviii. 19; Gen. R. lxxxii.).
Eleazar of Modi'im, in reference to Micah iv. 5, explains that Israel, though guilty of the same sins as the Gentiles, will not enter hell, while the Gentiles will (Cant. R. ii. 1). .. On the whole, he is very bitter in his condemnations of the heathen. "They profit by their deeds of love and benevolence to slander Israel" (referring to Jer. xl. 3;B. B. 10a).
Among Akiba's disciples Tarphon is noted for his antipathy to the Judæo-Christians, whose books he would burn without regard for the name of God occurring therein, preferring the temple of idolaters to them (Shab. 116a).
Simon ben Yoḥai is preeminently the anti-Gentile teacher. In a collection of three sayings of his, beginning with the keyword (Heb.) Shob (Yer. Ḳid. 66c; Massek. Soferim xv. 10; Mek., Beshal-laḥ, 27a; Tan., Wayera, ed. Buber, 20), is found the expression, often quoted by anti-Semites, "Ṭob shebe-goyyim harog" (="The best among the Gentiles deserves to be killed").
On the basis of Hab. iii. 6, Simon b. Yohai argued that, of all the nations, Israel alone was worthy to receive the Law (Lev. R. xiii.). The Gentiles, according to him, would not observe the seven laws given to the Noachidae (Tosef., Soṭah, viii. 7; Soṭah 35b), though the Law was written on the altar (Deut. xxvi. 8) in the seventy languages. Hence, while Israel is like the patient ass, the Gentiles resemble the easy-going, selfish dog (Lev. R. xiii.; Sifre, Deut., Wezot ha-Berakah, 343).
Judah ben 'Illai recommends the daily recital of the benediction. "Blessed be Thou . . . who hast not made me a goi[gentile]" (Tosef., Ber. vii. 18: Men. 43b, sometimes ascribed to Meir; see Weiss, "Dor," ii. 137). Judah is confident that the heathen (Gentiles) will ultimately come to shame (Isa. lxvi. 5; B. M. 33b).The Gentiles took copies of the Torah, and yet did not accept it (Soṭah 35b).

Character limit continued next post.​

​

​