former member, recent deconvert

[Some One]

It's been a very long time. I see a couple 'names', like Stiggy, that I remember. I think it's easily been around 13 or 14 years since I've been on here. I was a fairly regular member from around 2000-2009 I guess. For a brief period of time I moderated the Islam board around 2001.

After over 40 years of considering myself a Christian, about a year or so ago, after about a year of some deep introspection, I came to the conclusion and acceptance that I'm no longer a Christian. What exactly I am, meh, don't really care, though I'm somewhere on the spectrum of agnostic to atheist. Coming to the point of accepting that I was no longer a Christian was mildly upsetting, but afterward it was like a great relief. I'd been dealing with doubts since I was a kid, but over the past couple decades, and more so over the past few years, I came to a point that I could no longer squash the doubts or excuse them. I'd long been uneasy with many of the responses from Christian apologetics.

I think it's fair to say that the CARM forums helped in its part to eventually lead me to deconverting. Exposure to many different people with different beliefs, especially non-belief. Many smart, wise, and often compassionate people. I'd often spend many hours over the course of a week researching, writing, debating and discussing various topics with people.

So, thanks people, especially to the non-Christians here, more so - if any - that were on here during the early heyday of the CARM forums.

I am not using my former moniker out of privacy. The internet never forgets.

 

[Torin]

@Some One

Welcome back!

I'm really curious why you changed your mind. I have seen a couple of instances where long time CARM posters deconverted, but it's very rare for anyone to completely reverse their position as you say you have.

You won't find many of the smart, wise, compassionate people you mention on CARM any more. I doubt there were ever many of them here. There are a few people worth talking to, but most people on CARM are here to insult "idiots" without really listening to what they have to say. (I'm not exclusively referring to the Christians, here, either.)

 

[mikeT]

It's been a very long time. I see a couple 'names', like Stiggy, that I remember. I think it's easily been around 13 or 14 years since I've been on here. I was a fairly regular member from around 2000-2009 I guess. For a brief period of time I moderated the Islam board around 2001.

After over 40 years of considering myself a Christian, about a year or so ago, after about a year of some deep introspection, I came to the conclusion and acceptance that I'm no longer a Christian. What exactly I am, meh, don't really care, though I'm somewhere on the spectrum of agnostic to atheist. Coming to the point of accepting that I was no longer a Christian was mildly upsetting, but afterward it was like a great relief. I'd been dealing with doubts since I was a kid, but over the past couple decades, and more so over the past few years, I came to a point that I could no longer squash the doubts or excuse them. I'd long been uneasy with many of the responses from Christian apologetics.

I think it's fair to say that the CARM forums helped in its part to eventually lead me to deconverting. Exposure to many different people with different beliefs, especially non-belief. Many smart, wise, and often compassionate people. I'd often spend many hours over the course of a week researching, writing, debating and discussing various topics with people.

So, thanks people, especially to the non-Christians here, more so - if any - that were on here during the early heyday of the CARM forums.

I am not using my former moniker out of privacy. The internet never forgets.

I never feel like it's right to congratulate someone when they deconvert, and I'm not going to start here. The process can be painful, and atheism certainly doesn't offer any obvious comfort. Still, giving the authority to your brain to identify and tackle religious doubts and conundrums is a positive step. Even if you end up going back to being a theist, your brain is your friend (most of the time), and it's good to give him/her/it its due.

This place has always been rancorous, but lately it seems downright hostile; you wont find a lot of actual conversation taking place. Still, I hope you stick around for a bit, or at least pop in to say Hi every once in a while

 

[Some One]

Torin - I don't think there was any singular 'aha' moment, or even a couple. Rather it was a culmination of factors, time, and plenty of personal introspection and honesty. I think I'd really begun walking down the road of deconversion about 11 years or so ago. I found myself growing distant from Christianity. From practicing it.
In part I believe a couple factors were realizing that my some of my religious views were morphing over time, and digging into Biblical history. Getting information from non-traditional Christian sources or from non-Christian sources, and realizing that these people often-times had very good posits, theories and facts. By non-traditional I don't mean weird, alien, fringe, but instead, reasonable and oftentimes academic sources and research. I also realized that a major reason I continued believing I was a Christian, proclaiming it, was expectation. I've largely been a follower and don't like rocking boats, making people upset. I did a lot of things to make people happy, especially my mother and peers within my Christian community. I got to a point where I just said, this is stupid. I'm letting other people's expectations of me dictate my life and my beliefs.

MikeT - Meh, congratulate or not. I find proclaiming my deconversion mildly cathartic and a reasonable thing to do. I didn't find my deconversion process painful, but that's probably because it was a long, slow, quiet burn, so that when I finally admitted to myself that I was no longer a Christian, it felt like a speedbump instead of falling off a cliff. As to atheism not offering obvious comfort, meh, I have realized that I was never a spiritual person. My faith was 'academic', logical, and mental. That's no doubt a primary reason that led to my deconversion. Over the past 5 years I've become a more critically thinking person. Always interested in learning and within that anything of the social sciences and science, my problems with the Bible grew. And, if the Bible's error-prone, that creates a lot of problems for overarching theology/christology.

As to the CARM forums and the actions/words of many, Christian and non alike... Ha! I'm not in the least surprised. I was here following and during a couple of big purges and controversies. I don't see myself spending much time here. As I noted, I'm mostly doing this for personal catharsis and to encourage people who are struggling with doubts.

 

[Eightcrackers]

It's been a very long time. I see a couple 'names', like Stiggy, that I remember. I think it's easily been around 13 or 14 years since I've been on here. I was a fairly regular member from around 2000-2009 I guess. For a brief period of time I moderated the Islam board around 2001.

After over 40 years of considering myself a Christian, about a year or so ago, after about a year of some deep introspection, I came to the conclusion and acceptance that I'm no longer a Christian. What exactly I am, meh, don't really care, though I'm somewhere on the spectrum of agnostic to atheist. Coming to the point of accepting that I was no longer a Christian was mildly upsetting, but afterward it was like a great relief. I'd been dealing with doubts since I was a kid, but over the past couple decades, and more so over the past few years, I came to a point that I could no longer squash the doubts or excuse them. I'd long been uneasy with many of the responses from Christian apologetics.

I think it's fair to say that the CARM forums helped in its part to eventually lead me to deconverting. Exposure to many different people with different beliefs, especially non-belief. Many smart, wise, and often compassionate people. I'd often spend many hours over the course of a week researching, writing, debating and discussing various topics with people.

So, thanks people, especially to the non-Christians here, more so - if any - that were on here during the early heyday of the CARM forums.

I am not using my former moniker out of privacy. The internet never forgets.

Be prepared - though I'm sure you are - for the insipid

"You were never among us"

boilerplate...

 

[CrowCross]

Be prepared - though I'm sure you are - for the insipid

"You were never among us"

boilerplate...

You forgot this one...
1 Tim 4:1 Now the Spirit expressly states that in later times some will abandon the faith to follow deceitful spirits and the teachings of demons, 2 influenced by the hypocrisy of liars, whose consciences are seared with a hot iron.

 

[stiggy wiggy]

............Getting information from non-traditional Christian sources or from non-Christian sources, and realizing that these people often-times had very good posits, theories and facts. ........

Here we see a key to this whole "de-conversion" thing. If information can de-convert you, then it must have been information which you THINK converted you in the first place. No one is reborn spiritually by giving mental assent to information. Christians have been converted though the heart, not the mind. The renewal of the mind follows, but not through information, but through knowledge.

Let me give an analogy which will explain why no Christian will be impressed with your de-conversion story. I am an agnostic on the existence of Bigfoot. I tend to think he doesn't exist, but I am open-minded about it. But let's suppose someone swears they had an encounter with the big ape. They met him in the woods, they say, and saw him with their own eyes. What stock would they put in the relaying of "information" about Bigfoot sightings? None. True (and feel free to spell it "troo" if anyone wants to be hackneyed about it) Christians have not just assimilated information about Jesus Christ and drawn conclusions, they have had a personal encounter with Him, and no amount of contrary information will be able to dispel the reality of that encounter.

My certitude about the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead remains at 100% and cannot possibly fall bellow that level from now until the end of the age. De-conversion anecdotes are a dime a dozen around here. But welcome back. Not sure why revealing your previous moniker will interfere with your privacy, unless you had used your real name before.

 

[Some One]

Be prepared - though I'm sure you are - for the insipid

"You were never among us"

boilerplate...

Ah yes, the no true Scotsman logical fallacy. I was guilty of that myself quite often.

 

[Some One]

Hello Stiggy.

I learned a long time ago that the word or concept of 'never' should be rarely used. Certitudes of belief are not always forever. Everyone's walk in life is different, and there are often twists and unexpected turns and sometimes, such as for myself, ideological beliefs take years to change. A seed planted now might not bear proverbial fruit for decades, much as it was for me.

The heart is fallible and untrustworthy if I remember my Bible correctly. I wanted to believe. Believed I was. But I also couldn't get past the realization that a one-sided conversation -prayer - isn't a relationship, it's an infatuation.

I've long had problems with many of the problematic passages and topics within the Bible, especially the old testament. I do believe there's real history in the Bible. It's clearly a product of its time and people. But I also realized and learned that it's mythic. Historic fiction, wholly written by men, not supernaturally inspired. And between many of the internal inconsistencies, underlying egregious issues and questionable 'facts' I no longer trusted the Bible as a reliable source for desiminating god's word. I view the Bible much like a broken clock. It's right every now and then, but not most of the time. By no longer believing the Bible is true, out went my belief in Jesus as divine or a savior.

The world runs on information. Always has. The Bible is information, just as is every person's study of it and passing along findings. Some information is useful, some is not, some true, some false. Everyone chooses what they believe, some knowingly, some not.

Deconverting has been very emotionally freeing.

As to not using my old moniker, it's still floating around on the Internet in other places and Google's search is often strong. I wish to maintain a level of anonymity for personal reasons. My old user name creates the potential as a loose thread.

 

[stiggy wiggy]

Hello Stiggy.

I learned a long time ago that the word or concept of 'never' should be rarely used. Certitudes of belief are not always forever. Everyone's walk in life is different, and there are often twists and unexpected turns and sometimes, such as for myself, ideological beliefs take years to change. A seed planted now might not bear proverbial fruit for decades, much as it was for me.

The heart is fallible and untrustworthy if I remember my Bible correctly. I wanted to believe. Believed I was. But I also couldn't get past the realization that a one-sided conversation -prayer - isn't a relationship, it's an infatuation.

I've long had problems with many of the problematic passages and topics within the Bible, especially the old testament. I do believe there's real history in the Bible. It's clearly a product of its time and people. But I also realized and learned that it's mythic. Historic fiction, wholly written by men, not supernaturally inspired. And between many of the internal inconsistencies, underlying egregious issues and questionable 'facts' I no longer trusted the Bible as a reliable source for desiminating god's word. I view the Bible much like a broken clock. It's right every now and then, but not most of the time. By no longer believing the Bible is true, out went my belief in Jesus as divine or a savior.

The world runs on information. Always has. The Bible is information, just as is every person's study of it and passing along findings. Some information is useful, some is not, some true, some false. Everyone chooses what they believe, some knowingly, some not.

Deconverting has been very emotionally freeing.

Let's dispense with the word "deconverted." You did not deconvert. You merely changed your mind about stuff you used to believe. New "information" has made you reconsider your previous mere OPINION about the veracity of the Bible. But a butterfly cannot deconvert to a caterpillar nor a bullfrog to a tadpole. Jesus Christ changes the person, He doesn't merely persuade you to think certain things you never thought before.

You correctly say that "certitudes about belief are not always forever." I have undergone many changes of belief regarding Christian doctrine, e.g. the rapture, views on the Atonement and the gifts of the Spirit. But I am no more susceptible to changing my mind on the reality of the living resurrected Christ than you are on the reality of your mother, brother or sister. You believe in them because you have EXPERIENCED their reality, not because someone talked you into that belief.

 

[mikeT]

Jesus Christ changes the person,

And thus it is your OPINION that you are a changed person.

Until you die, and we can know whether you remained steadfast in your faith to Christ, we can never know whether you actually were a true Christian or not. It's fun to cast out the Christianity of people who fall away from your religion, but that is just an exercise in self-congratulation and reaffirmation; you need reassurance that you are not like them and never will be.

But reassurance is all it is. The reality is that the bible's logic on who is / was a Christian effectively renders all living Christians as "Maybe"s - despite the fact that you all insist you're true believers. If you actually bought what the bible says about this, you'd never call yourself a Christian until you could be sure that it was true.

 

[stiggy wiggy]

And thus it is your OPINION that you are a changed person.

Is it merely your OPINION that your brother or your sister are real? Of course not. You KNOW they are real because you have experienced their reality.

Until you die, and we can know whether you remained steadfast in your faith to Christ, we can never know whether you actually were a true Christian or not.

Sure, I have free will. I can walk away from Christ. I can even blaspheme Him. But I cannot deny His reality. I have experienced it.

 

[SteveB]

It's been a very long time. I see a couple 'names', like Stiggy, that I remember. I think it's easily been around 13 or 14 years since I've been on here. I was a fairly regular member from around 2000-2009 I guess. For a brief period of time I moderated the Islam board around 2001.

Before my time here.

After over 40 years of considering myself a Christian, about a year or so ago, after about a year of some deep introspection, I came to the conclusion and acceptance that I'm no longer a Christian.

Interesting......
Deep introspection......

Recently, I too have been experiencing this issue.
Remembering all my sins, and my past, dating back to my childhood.
A lot of stupidity, selfishness, and..... well.... just plain, good old fashioned humanity.
Every day I get on my knees and I read the bible and I talk to God about me, and what I perceive as the ugly in my life.
And every day, often multiple times throughout my day, God reminds me that I am in need of a savior! Not because I'm such a great guy. But because no matter how hard I try.... I can never escape my sin, and flesh.


So, I find myself wondering..... if you'd been at this for ~40 years....
What did you lose sight of?

The writer of Hebrews warns us to not forget what we have been taught regarding the truth and Jesus, lest we drift away.

Looking back at my 40th anniversary of learning to follow Jesus, and now at 45+ years, I can tell you....

It's forgetting why we came to Jesus in the first place that will result in our forgetfulness.
First principles matter!

Why did you come to Jesus in the first place?
I came because I needed, indeed, once he showed me his love, wanted a savior. Once he showed me that he loved me, I knew I needed him and his Love.

Jesus came to save sinners.
He came to restore us to a right relationship with God.
Even Paul tells us in Romans 7, and 8 that it takes a completely different approach than just being a religionist.
40 years is a long time to throw away.

Eternity is even longer.....

What exactly I am, meh, don't really care, though I'm somewhere on the spectrum of agnostic to atheist.

Curious....

According to Jeremiah 24, vs 7, YHVH says that he will give us a heart to know him.

Jesus said eternal life is knowing God and Jesus, whom God sent.

Coming to the point of accepting that I was no longer a Christian was mildly upsetting, but afterward it was like a great relief.

Why is that?
What kind of christian were you? Did you have a denominational affiliation? Which one?
Why did you find it a relief?

I'd been dealing with doubts since I was a kid, but over the past couple decades, and more so over the past few years, I came to a point that I could no longer squash the doubts or excuse them.

What did your doubts consist of?
I didn't become a follower of Jesus until I was 17. I'd abandoned the religion of my upbringing when I was 11-12. That was 50 years ago.
I met Jesus 6 years later. It was a very profound and powerful experience.
The doubts I've experienced over the years have consisted of whether or not I could follow Jesus in the manner prescribed in the bible.
I've learned over the past 45 years that the bible provides everything we need to know and follow and experience Jesus.

I'd long been uneasy with many of the responses from Christian apologetics.

I'd hope so.
Apologetics is not the basis of our faith in Jesus.
Jesus is.
The bible is.
The power of God through the Holy Spirit is.

I think it's fair to say that the CARM forums helped in its part to eventually lead me to deconverting.

That's not surprising.
Following Jesus is not merely a collection of Apologetics arguments.
If I were to make a comparison between food, and what we see on this forum, ......

This forum is like eating snacks and candy, appetizers, hors d'oeuvres.

Paul tells us in 1 Corinthians 3 that new believer doctrines are like drinking milk.
Jesus said that food is doing God's Will, John 4. Hebrews 6 talks about milk too...

So, if you got stuck in here and lost your perspective, this makes perfect sense.
You never received any whole, nutritious, and substantial spiritual food!

Exposure to many different people with different beliefs, especially non-belief. Many smart, wise, and often compassionate people.

Yeah. Nobody ever once denied that the people here weren't passionate about their beliefs and unbeliefs.
There is however only one who is true, and his name is Jesus.

I'd often spend many hours over the course of a week researching, writing, debating and discussing various topics with people.

So, thanks people, especially to the non-Christians here, more so - if any - that were on here during the early heyday of the CARM forums.

Pity you allowed the ideas of human beings to align your beliefs to.

I am not using my former moniker out of privacy. The internet never forgets.

It was before my time. I didn't come until November 2012.

I was on a number of different forums in those early years.

 

[BJ Bear]

It's been a very long time. I see a couple 'names', like Stiggy, that I remember. I think it's easily been around 13 or 14 years since I've been on here. I was a fairly regular member from around 2000-2009 I guess. For a brief period of time I moderated the Islam board around 2001.

After over 40 years of considering myself a Christian, about a year or so ago, after about a year of some deep introspection, I came to the conclusion and acceptance that I'm no longer a Christian. What exactly I am, meh, don't really care, though I'm somewhere on the spectrum of agnostic to atheist. Coming to the point of accepting that I was no longer a Christian was mildly upsetting, but afterward it was like a great relief. I'd been dealing with doubts since I was a kid, but over the past couple decades, and more so over the past few years, I came to a point that I could no longer squash the doubts or excuse them. I'd long been uneasy with many of the responses from Christian apologetics.

I think it's fair to say that the CARM forums helped in its part to eventually lead me to deconverting. Exposure to many different people with different beliefs, especially non-belief. Many smart, wise, and often compassionate people. I'd often spend many hours over the course of a week researching, writing, debating and discussing various topics with people.

So, thanks people, especially to the non-Christians here, more so - if any - that were on here during the early heyday of the CARM forums.

I am not using my former moniker out of privacy. The internet never forgets.

Looking inward is looking in the wrong direction. It is faith in Christ rather than faith in yourself or faith in your faith.

 

[Lastdaysbeliever]

Be prepared - though I'm sure you are - for the insipid

"You were never among us"

boilerplate...

Ah, so no Christian need respond. Got it.

 

[Some One]

Let's dispense with the word "deconverted." You did not deconvert. You merely changed your mind about stuff you used to believe. New "information" has made you reconsider your previous mere OPINION about the veracity of the Bible. But a butterfly cannot deconvert to a caterpillar nor a bullfrog to a tadpole. Jesus Christ changes the person, He doesn't merely persuade you to think certain things you never thought before.

You correctly say that "certitudes about belief are not always forever." I have undergone many changes of belief regarding Christian doctrine, e.g. the rapture, views on the Atonement and the gifts of the Spirit. But I am no more susceptible to changing my mind on the reality of the living resurrected Christ than you are on the reality of your mother, brother or sister. You believe in them because you have EXPERIENCED their reality, not because someone talked you into that belief.

I won't dispense with the word, 'deconverted'. Words have meaning and nuance - it's why we have dictionaries and thesarus'. Some words can also have multiple/change meanings while others haven't changed in thousands of years. You say I didn't deconvert, merely changed my mind, and you're more right than you know...

I did believe I'd converted. I did believe I was a Christian, even throughout my years of doubts. So, saying I deconverted is truthful to what I believed about my faith/belief and what happened about a year ago. However, while I use the word deconvert, you are correct that it was also a changing of my mind. If the Bible is not god's word, and if Jesus isn't divine or the savior, then my conversion was merely a changing of my mind in the first place. I changed my mind when I was ten about what I believed and changed it again a year ago.

It's not unsurprising that some might not like the word deconvert. I do not know where you stand, but, the idea of deconversion swims in the same pool as the discussion of whether one can or cannot lose their salvation. OSAS. It's necessarily understandable that if someone holds to the idea of OSAS then someone who claims to have deconverted was never a true believer in the first place.

I cannot speak to your experiences, only my own. As I noted, I've never been a very spiritual person, which is in part why I think I came to walk away from my faith. I have always been a more analytically-minded person. I deal with data (as part of my job, but also in life I've always been interested in learning - I have always preferred documentaries to fictional shows), with facts, with 'information', or, evidence. I'd always found a lot of the evidence for Jesus/the Bible wanting, but, I also wanted to believe and accepted the idea that more learned and experienced Christians, preachers, apologists, Christian academics, etc clearly had to know more than I, and thus they must be right. So, I'd squash my doubts or excuse them and listen to what my Christian betters had to say. If my understanding of scripture didn't jive with general orthodoxy or typical protestant doctrines, I must be wrong.

I did have one or two incidents that I thought at the time might be God "speaking" to me, but by and large I never felt any personal intangible or tangible event/thing that gave me proof that Jesus was 'alive' or 'in me'. I have not experienced the 'reality' of Jesus.

The reality is that belief is each person's opinion frequently affected by someone else's opinions. Each person's walk is their own, even those heavily influenced by others to the point that they don't realize that they can make their own decisions and beliefs.

So, you do you Stiggy, but, I was a Christian that believed Jesus was Lord and desired to follow the Bible, but no longer. Feel free to respond, I give you the final comment for this thread.

 

[Some One]

Looking inward is looking in the wrong direction. It is faith in Christ rather than faith in yourself or faith in your faith.

As a logically minded and analytical person I place very little value in blind faith anymore. Give me sound reasoning and evidence. A personal review of my beliefs, of what I believed and thought I believed in as true, led me to the conclusion that much of the 'evidence' was fictions, not nonfiction.

 

[Lastdaysbeliever]

As a logically minded and analytical person I place very little value in blind faith anymore. Give me sound reasoning and evidence. A personal review of my beliefs, of what I believed and thought I believed in as true, led me to the conclusion that much of the 'evidence' was fictions, not nonfiction.

You are not alone nor does what you did make you special. There have been some pretty heady "pastors" of late that have left the church, stating they no longer believe in God so I can only surmise you truly never did. So be it. Jesus knows His own and I would say He doesn't know you. As for me and my house, we serve the Lord of Lords and King of Kings. The great I AM. The Alpha and Omega. The Beginning and the End. The Living Water. The bread of life. The only name under heaven by which we must be saved.

Romans 8: 38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[stiggy wiggy]

You say I didn't deconvert, merely changed my mind, and you're more right than you know...

No, I knew how right I was when I typed it.

I did believe I'd converted. I did believe I was a Christian, even throughout my years of doubts. So, saying I deconverted is truthful to what I believed about my faith/belief and what happened about a year ago. However, while I use the word deconvert, you are correct that it was also a changing of my mind. If the Bible is not god's word, and if Jesus isn't divine or the savior, then my conversion was merely a changing of my mind in the first place.

Yes, we both agree that you were never spiritually reborn and thus never deconverted. As you say it was ONLY truthful to what you believed at the time, which you now realize was no deconversion experience at all. You had no experience either way. You simply changed your mind about stuff. A tadpole does not become a bullfrog by thought process. His whole reality is changed. This never happened to you.

The reality is that belief is each person's opinion frequently affected by someone else's opinions. Each person's walk is their own, even those heavily influenced by others to the point that they don't realize that they can make their own decisions and beliefs.

So, you do you Stiggy, but, I was a Christian that believed Jesus was Lord and desired to follow the Bible,

Christians don't follow the Bible. They follow the living God, The Bible reveals Him. You continue to speak of opinions. Spiritual rebirth is not a change in opinion.

 

[stiggy wiggy]

When I was agnostic the first 26 year of my life, I was constantly changing my OPINION about the truth or falsity of the Christian religion. But none of the "No, I don't think I believe it after all" moments were a "deconversion." I simply changed my mind. At age 26, I EXPERIENCED the Living God. I can no more "deconvert" now than a butterfly can think, "I believe I will go back to being a caterpillar." Sure, I can be a reprobate butterfly, even a blasphemous one, with clipped wings, deserving of hell, but I have been reborn, and there's not a damn thing I can do to change that.