Forsaken

puddleglum

Well-known member
God has never promised that his children will be wealthy in this life but he has promised that we will have everything we need.

Keep your life free from love of money, and be content with what you have, for he has said, “I will never leave you nor forsake you.” (Hebrews 13:5)

Because he has promised never to forsake us we don’t need to be concerned about how much money we have. He will give us what we need when we need it. If we don’t have something we would like to have it means we don’t need it so we can be content with what we have, no matter how little that is.

God’s promises don’t mean we will never suffer. Like any good father God wants his children to become mature and maturity requires discipline.

It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline? (Hebrews 12:7)

The discipline we endure doesn’t mean that God has forsaken us but shows that he is actively involved in our lives. Whatever pain we suffer now will be made up for by the effects it has on us in the future. (If everything always goes smoothly for you and you don’t ever suffer, perhaps you should examine yourself to make sure you are really saved. Satan sometimes tricks people into thinking they are saved when they aren’t. I was once a victim of this deception. I was an active member of a church but I was still lost.)

In view of these facts, Jesus made a statement while he was being crucified that is puzzling to some.

And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” that is, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” (Matthew 27:46)

God has promised never to forsake us. How could he forsake is own Son?

Psalm 22 begins with the words Jesus said. Some have tried to explain his words by saying that he was quoting that psalm. But if you read the psalm you will see that it is a prophecy of how the Messiah would die.

For dogs encompass me;
a company of evildoers encircles me;
they have pierced my hands and feet—
I can count all my bones—
they stare and gloat over me;
they divide my garments among them,
and for my clothing they cast lots.
(Psalm 22:16-18)

Jesus wasn’t quoting Psalm 22; the psalm was prophesying what he would say.

His being forsaken by the Father makes sense when we look at why Jesus died in the first place.

For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. (2 Corinthians 5:21)

All death, both physical and spiritual, is the result of sin. Jesus never sinned so he didn’t have to die. He chose to die in our place so that we could be reconciled to God and receive eternal life. Since our sins have separated us from God he had to experience this same separation.

None of us can conceive of how painful this separation was for Jesus. We are born in a state of spiritual death so separation is our default position. Jesus was God as well as man and had always known perfect fellowship with God. When he was rejected he couldn’t even address God as “Father” as he normally did. The suffering of being rejected was probably worse than the physical pain he experienced. When he asked if God could allow this cup to pass from him, I think he was referring more to this separation than to the pain of crucifixion.

It won’t be until we get to Heaven that we will have some idea of the price Jesus paid. When we experience perfect fellowship without any sin to distract us we will finally understand the sacrifice he made. Those who reject him will also begin to understand rejection when they are condemned to Hell and no longer receive any of the good things God gives them in this life.

It is only during this life that we have the opportunity to choose whether to repent and trust in Jesus so that his death will pay for our sins. If you aren’t sure whether you have done this I recommend that you check this: https://carm.org/christianity/answers-for-seekers/
 

stjerome5

Active member
this was a good read in that I found no theological error. I've read the Bible and studied Catholicism and other religions

the only thing I don't like is the wording that says.. .about being "saved"

he who endures to the end WILL BE saved (not IS saved)
 

4Him

Administrator
Staff member
this was a good read in that I found no theological error. I've read the Bible and studied Catholicism and other religions

the only thing I don't like is the wording that says.. .about being "saved"

he who endures to the end WILL BE saved (not IS saved)

That is about the Tribulation.....you are either saved or you are lost.


For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
 

stjerome5

Active member
That is about the Tribulation.....you are either saved or you are lost.


For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
dont believe in tribulation if u mean that some will just disappear and some will stay

Jesus said he will come again .. so he comes to us twice, not three times.

and the words are right there... This is the problem I've had with protestants.. they interpret Scripture the way they want rather than how it is supposed to be interpreted. We need a Church to interpret the Bible and protestants ditched the Church in the 16th century
 

4Him

Administrator
Staff member
dont believe in tribulation if u mean that some will just disappear and some will stay

That's not the tribulation. The Tribulation is what is spoken of in Revelation.
Jesus said he will come again .. so he comes to us twice, not three times.

No one said He comes three times.
and the words are right there... This is the problem I've had with protestants.. they interpret Scripture the way they want rather than how it is supposed to be interpreted. We need a Church to interpret the Bible and protestants ditched the Church in the 16th century

You are living proof a church can't interpret Scripture for you, since you didn't even get it right....CONTEXT means everything.....the verse you are referring to is about THE TRIBULATION that is yet to come. But since you think your church can interpret the bible for you, then post the official Catholic interpretation of the verse. Do you know how many verses of scripture the Catholic church has actually interpreted? Less than 10. So if that's what you are depending on to understand Scripture, you are one lost soul.
 

stjerome5

Active member
That's not the tribulation. The Tribulation is what is spoken of in Revelation.


No one said He comes three times.


You are living proof a church can't interpret Scripture for you, since you didn't even get it right....CONTEXT means everything.....the verse you are referring to is about THE TRIBULATION that is yet to come. But since you think your church can interpret the bible for you, then post the official Catholic interpretation of the verse. Do you know how many verses of scripture the Catholic church has actually interpreted? Less than 10. So if that's what you are depending on to understand Scripture, you are one lost soul.
thanks for judging me... you who don't know me from Adam

I wasthinking of the Rapture, so I do apologize for the mistake. Other than that... well, I am not sure I can respond when u just seem to want to insult Catholics

we don't know anything

so the myth goes.. saying I have read the Bible means nada to y'all.. studied Catholicsim: ditto

I would refer you to Scott Hahn who has done extensive research on the Catholic Church... did so because he wanted to refute Catholicism... found out he couldn't... converted.. He is the most erudite Christian I can think of.
 

4Him

Administrator
Staff member
thanks for judging me... you who don't know me from Adam

I didn't.....You are lost when it comes to understanding Scripture.
I wasthinking of the Rapture, so I do apologize for the mistake. Other than that... well, I am not sure I can respond when u just seem to want to insult Catholics

Nice dodge.
I would refer you to Scott Hahn

I don't read anything false teachers teach, and he is one.
who has done extensive research on the Catholic Church...

So have I.
did so because he wanted to refute Catholicism... found out he couldn't... converted.. He is the most erudite Christian I can think of.
Well, that isn't saying much.
 
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shnarkle

Well-known member
dont believe in tribulation if u mean that some will just disappear and some will stay
I'll go along with that.
Jesus said he will come again .. so he comes to us twice, not three times.
I don't find this compelling for one specific reason, i.e. when he points out that he didn't come to condemn the world, but to save the lost, he then follows that up by saying his words will condemn them. I don't know how people mistake a person for his words, or vice versa. When he passes judgement upon Jerusalem, his words will come to pass, and in hindsight, we can see that this judgement came upon Israel, but Christ doesn't need to be there for this to happen. His words being fulfilled are sufficient.
and the words are right there...
Precisely. The words are right there for all to see their fulfillment. We read of Christians making a hasty getaway as the Roman military recedes. They then see Jerusalem destroyed
This is the problem I've had with protestants.. they interpret Scripture the way they want rather than how it is supposed to be interpreted.
How do we know this isn't the case with other denominations e.g. Roman Catholic, Greek Orthodox, Jehovah's Witnesses, etc.?
We need a Church to interpret the Bible and protestants ditched the Church in the 16th century
This isn't a compelling argument. It's just a claim with nothing to back it up. Why would anyone trust one church over another? Shouldn't we test them?
 
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puddleglum

Well-known member
he who endures to the end WILL BE saved (not IS saved)

If you read this statement by itself it certainly does sound as if our salvation depends on our enduring, but we must interpret it in the light of everything the Bible teaches about salvation.

Ephesians 2:8-10 says, "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." Salvation is the result of faith, not works, and endurance is a work.

Here is what 1 John 2:19 says about those who do not endure. "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us." Endurance in the evidence we are saved, not the means by which we acquire salvation.
 

puddleglum

Well-known member
We need a Church to interpret the Bible and protestants ditched the Church in the 16th century

The duty of the church is to submit to the Bible and obey it. The Catholic Church has made its false interpretations as authoritative as the Bible itself and that is why Martin Luther left it. Unfortunately there are a lot of Protestant Churches today who are doing the same thing.
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
Endurance in the evidence we are saved, not the means by which we acquire salvation.
This makes sense. However, there's a fine line between someone seeing the evidence of their faith, and someone looking at their works as evidence of their faith. In other words, one could just as easily point to the piety of the legalistic Pharisees as claim that this is evidence of their endurance/faith.

If we start looking at all of our works as evidence of our faith, I don't see the effective difference between us and those within a Pharisaic tradition.
 

4Him

Administrator
Staff member
This makes sense. However, there's a fine line between someone seeing the evidence of their faith, and someone looking at their works as evidence of their faith. In other words, one could just as easily point to the piety of the legalistic Pharisees as claim that this is evidence of their endurance/faith.

If we start looking at all of our works as evidence of our faith, I don't see the effective difference between us and those within a Pharisaic tradition.
Yet Jesus said you shall know them by their fruit....
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
Yet Jesus said you shall know them by their fruit....
Fruit are not works. Fruit indicates a systemic process. In other words, you can't go by your observations. As Jesus points out, the kingdom doesn't come by observation.

So how does one distinguish between the legalistic Pharisee giving to the poor versus the saved believer giving alms? Just as importantly, if you're the recipient of these new clothes, food for your belly, and perhaps a roof over your head, do you really care if the one providing you with these gifts is saved or not? Aren't you going to thank God anyways?

I find it interesting how God can take the damned and use their works to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, and house the homeless all while sending these enduring workers straight to hell because they're only doing this because they think they can save themselves through their damnable righteous works.
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
According to the Greek, it is indeed a work, a deed, an action.
False, but feel free to present some evidence for your position.


You're missing the distinction between fruit and works.
καρπῶν
From Matthew 7:16,20 καρπῶν (karpōn is translated as "fruit"


Englishman's Concordance
καρπῶν (karpōn) — 6 Occurrences
Matthew 7:16 N-GMP
GRK: ἀπὸ τῶν καρπῶν αὐτῶν ἐπιγνώσεσθε
NAS: You will know them by their fruits. Grapes
KJV: by their fruits. Do men gather grapes
INT: By the fruits of them you will know
Matthew 7:20 N-GMP
GRK: ἀπὸ τῶν καρπῶν αὐτῶν ἐπιγνώσεσθε
NAS: you will know them by their fruits.
KJV: by their fruits ye shall know them.
INT: by the fruits of them you will know
Matthew 21:34 N-GMP
GRK: καιρὸς τῶν καρπῶν ἀπέστειλεν τοὺς
NAS: When the harvest time approached,
KJV: the time of the fruit drew near,
INT: season of the fruits he sent the
Mark 12:2 N-GMP
GRK: ἀπὸ τῶν καρπῶν τοῦ ἀμπελῶνος
NAS: to receive [some] of the produce of the vineyard
KJV: of the fruit of the vineyard.
INT: from the fruit of the vineyard
2 Timothy 2:6 N-GMP
GRK: πρῶτον τῶν καρπῶν μεταλαμβάνειν
NAS: to receive his share of the crops.
KJV: first partaker of the fruits.
INT: first of the fruits partake
James 3:17 N-GMP
GRK: ἐλέους καὶ καρπῶν ἀγαθῶν ἀδιάκριτος
NAS: and good fruits, unwavering,
KJV: good fruits, without partiality,
INT: of mercy and of fruits good impartial



From Matthew 7:23 ἐργαζόμενοι (ergazomenoi) is translated as "works" "working" etc.

ἐργαζόμενοι


Englishman's Concordance
ἐργαζόμενοι (ergazomenoi) — 6 Occurrences
Matthew 7:23 V-PPM/P-NMP
GRK: ἐμοῦ οἱ ἐργαζόμενοι τὴν ἀνομίαν
NAS: you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'
KJV: from me, ye that work iniquity.
INT: me those who work lawlessness
1 Corinthians 4:12 V-PPM/P-NMP
GRK: καὶ κοπιῶμεν ἐργαζόμενοι ταῖς ἰδίαις
NAS: and we toil, working with our own
KJV: labour, working with our own
INT: and toil working with the own
1 Corinthians 9:13 V-PPM/P-NMP
GRK: τὰ ἱερὰ ἐργαζόμενοι τὰ ἐκ
NAS: that those who perform sacred services
KJV: that they which minister about holy things
INT: those sacred working the things of
1 Thessalonians 2:9 V-PPM/P-NMP
GRK: καὶ ἡμέρας ἐργαζόμενοι πρὸς τὸ
NAS: and hardship, [how] working night
KJV: travail: for labouring night and
INT: and day working for
2 Thessalonians 3:8 V-PPM/P-NMP
GRK: καὶ ἡμέρας ἐργαζόμενοι πρὸς τὸ
NAS: and hardship we [kept] working night
KJV: for nought; but wrought with labour
INT: and day working in order
2 Thessalonians 3:12 V-PPM/P-NMP
GRK: μετὰ ἡσυχίας ἐργαζόμενοι τὸν ἑαυτῶν
NAS: Christ to work in quiet fashion
KJV: quietness they work, and eat
INT: with quietness working of themselves

 

4Him

Administrator
Staff member
False, but feel free to present some evidence for your position.

Not false....

karpos: fruit
Original Word: καρπός, οῦ, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: karpos
Phonetic Spelling: (kar-pos')
Definition: fruit
Usage: (a) fruit, generally vegetable, sometimes animal, (b) met: fruit, deed, action, result, (c) profit, gain.

used of men's deeds as exponents of their hearts (cf. Winer's Grammar, 372 (348)), Matthew 7:16, 20; ἀγαθοί, James 3:17

to exhibit deeds agreeing with a change of heart, Matthew 3:8; Luke 3:8

You're missing the distinction between fruit and works.

No, you are.
 

4Him

Administrator
Staff member
Not a rebuttal.

What you conveniently cut off was.

karpos: fruit
Original Word: καρπός, οῦ, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: karpos
Phonetic Spelling: (kar-pos')
Definition: fruit
Usage: (a) fruit, generally vegetable, sometimes animal, (b) met: fruit, deed, action, result, (c) profit, gain.

used of men's deeds as exponents of their hearts (cf. Winer's Grammar, 372 (348)), Matthew 7:16, 20; ἀγαθοί, James 3:17

to exhibit deeds agreeing with a change of heart, Matthew 3:8; Luke 3:8
I provided the distinction for your edification.

You provided a list of scripture using the word....you didn't bother to look up the meaning or how it is used in differing scriptures. I did.
If you have no interest in addressing what I posted, I have no problem leaving you with the last word on the subject.

You provided your opinion, I provided a definition of the word that you denied, and scripture that supports it, for your edification.
 
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