Free Will and The Flood

treeplanter

treeplanter

Well-known member
For those Christians who believe that God gave us free will and refrains from interfering where the exercising of free will is concerned:

How do you reconcile the account of the Flood?

Scripture tells us that God saw "how great the wickedness of the human race had become" and that "every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time"

Clearly, the human race had exercised it's free will
Clearly, the human race chose, for itself, evil

And, clearly, God interfered with man's free will choice!
God took away man's prerogative to live a life of evil when, in The Flood, He took away man's very life


Please, spare me the "God didn't interfere with the free will choice to be evil - all He did was to ensure that there be a consequence to this free will choice" bit

This line of reasoning doesn't work within the context of "God doesn't send us to Hell, we send ourselves to Hell" and it doesn't work here either...
 
God has a will as well. It's good you noticed. His will is greater than ours, His purposes will come to be, evil will be eradicated from His creation and He gives you time to realize you cannot fight God, His will will be done. It's a good will too, righteous and true.

For years Noah preached, for years men mocked God. Excuse me, they mocked Noah, right? Isn't that what you always say? You don't mock God you mock men, right? Well well, looks like God noticed them mocking Noah and the message He gave to him.

Things aren't so different today it would seem.

Atheists are known to mock His appearing. I've even read the words here, where is His coming? It's a weird kind of mock because it's about their destruction.

I think your real angst is the curse, and God holding you accountable. You can mock that too, if you want.
 
Furion said:
God has a will as well. It's good you noticed. His will is greater than ours
Click to expand...
So what you are saying is that God DOES interfere with our free will - despite the claim, by certain Christians, that God does not interfere with our free will?
 
treeplanter said:
For those Christians who believe that God gave us free will and refrains from interfering where the exercising of free will is concerned:

How do you reconcile the account of the Flood?

Scripture tells us that God saw "how great the wickedness of the human race had become" and that "every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time"

Clearly, the human race had exercised it's free will
Clearly, the human race chose, for itself, evil

And, clearly, God interfered with man's free will choice!
God took away man's prerogative to live a life of evil when, in The Flood, He took away man's very life


Please, spare me the "God didn't interfere with the free will choice to be evil - all He did was to ensure that there be a consequence to this free will choice" bit

This line of reasoning doesn't work within the context of "God doesn't send us to Hell, we send ourselves to Hell" and it doesn't work here either...
Click to expand...

So when Ted Bundy was executed, the government retroactively took away his free will to murder those girls? Absurd. Or surely you're not merely stating the obvious; that administering justice is tantamount to inhibiting free will IN THE FUTURE. It does do that of course. Dead people cannot freely kill others, for example.
 
treeplanter said:
So what you are saying is that God DOES interfere with our free will - despite the claim, by certain Christians, that God does not interfere with our free will?
Click to expand...

So what are you physically capable of doing that God keeps you from doing? Name one thing.
 
stiggy wiggy said:
So when Ted Bundy was executed, the government retroactively took away his free will to murder those girls? Absurd. Or surely you're not merely stating the obvious; that administering justice is tantamount to inhibiting free will IN THE FUTURE. It does do that of course. Dead people cannot freely kill others, for example.
Click to expand...
There is no governmental pretense that we are afforded a free will choice as regarding murder, stiggy
It is made clear, up front, that choosing non-murder is acceptable and choosing murder will not be tolerated

Your claim, however, is that God
{unlike the government}
chooses NOT to interfere in our free will choices

However, The Great Flood proves otherwise...
 
treeplanter said:
For those Christians who believe that God gave us free will and refrains from interfering where the exercising of free will is concerned:

How do you reconcile the account of the Flood?

Scripture tells us that God saw "how great the wickedness of the human race had become" and that "every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time"

Clearly, the human race had exercised it's free will
Clearly, the human race chose, for itself, evil

And, clearly, God interfered with man's free will choice!
God took away man's prerogative to live a life of evil when, in The Flood, He took away man's very life


Please, spare me the "God didn't interfere with the free will choice to be evil - all He did was to ensure that there be a consequence to this free will choice" bit

This line of reasoning doesn't work within the context of "God doesn't send us to Hell, we send ourselves to Hell" and it doesn't work here either...
Click to expand...
What do you think Genesis 6 is about?
 
stiggy wiggy said:
The flood was judgement on their free will acts. We all have free will until WE DIE!
Click to expand...
Indeed, DEATH, according to scripture, was the judgement upon man's free will choice of evil over goodness

However, the FACT that God imposes death upon ONE 'choice', but NOT the other, is proof that we were never TRULY free to make the choice that we did


What if I were to offer you ice cream, stiggy?
Chocolate
OR
Vanilla

Choose chocolate and I promise to let you be, but if you choose vanilla - then I promise to beat you up
Have I really and truly granted you a FREE choice?
 
treeplanter said:
Indeed, DEATH, according to scripture, was the judgement upon man's free will choice of evil over goodness
Click to expand...

Correct. It's called sin. Everyone, while alive, is free to sin. Free will intact.

treeplanter said:
However, the FACT that God imposes death upon ONE 'choice', but NOT the other, is proof that we were never TRULY free to make the choice that we did
Click to expand...

Wrong. That's why when I asked you above to name one thing you are physically capable of doing, but not free to do, you ignored the question. Because there are none.


treeplanter said:
What if I were to offer you ice cream, stiggy?
Chocolate
OR
Vanilla

Choose chocolate and I promise to let you be, but if you choose vanilla - then I promise to beat you up
Have I really and truly granted you a FREE choice?
Click to expand...

Absolutely. PERFECT EXAMPLE! I'd choose vanilla. And then I'd choose to laugh at your feeble attempt to beat me up.
 
stiggy wiggy said:
I asked you above to name one thing you are physically capable of doing, but not free to do
Click to expand...
Sin!

God does not allow us to 'sin', stiggy

God has chosen to interfere with our free will where sin is concerned

The proof?
God punishes for sin {Hell}


Just like my PERFECT EXAMPLE!

Were I to offer you a 'choice' between two ice cream flavors, but promise to punish you for choosing the 'wrong' one - this is NOT A FREE CHOICE!

Your line of reasoning is akin to an assertion that one chooses to break one's own kneecaps by virtue of refusing to pay protection money to the mob...
 
treeplanter said:
God choosing to wipe out the human race on the basis of humanity having supposedly become evil
Click to expand...
Perhaps it was the mixxed race God was wiping out.
treeplanter said:
What do YOU think Genesis 6 is about?
Click to expand...
There was a plan by the "fallen angels" to intermingle and marry the women on earth and produce "hybrids"...no longer fully human...in an attempt to corrupt the pure blood linage from which Jesus was to come. If they could taint Jesus blood then His blood would be able to wash away our sins. The fallen angel plan was a failure.
 
CrowCross said:
Perhaps it was the mixxed race God was wiping out.

There was a plan by the "fallen angels" to intermingle and marry the women on earth and produce "hybrids"...no longer fully human...in an attempt to corrupt the pure blood linage from which Jesus was to come. If they could taint Jesus blood then His blood would be able to wash away our sins. The fallen angel plan was a failure.
Click to expand...
Do you mean to say that were they able to taint Jesus' blood then it WOULDN'T have been able to wash our sins away?
I trust that you made a typo...

That said, do you believe that we have free will?
 
treeplanter said:
God does not allow us to 'sin', stiggy
Click to expand...

What an asinine remark. No one sins, eh? He has been allowing me to sin all my life. Are you claiming you've never sinned?

treeplanter said:
God has chosen to interfere with our free will where sin is concerned

The proof?

God punishes for sin {Hell}
Click to expand...

So He DOES allow us to sin, Sheesh, make up your mind.


treeplanter said:
Were I to offer you a 'choice' between two ice cream flavors, but promise to punish you for choosing the 'wrong' one - this is NOT A FREE CHOICE!
Click to expand...

That is one of the stupidest things I have ever read. Obviously CHOOSING the wrong one is a CHOICE!
 
Rude post
stiggy wiggy said:
What an asinine remark. No one sins, eh? He has been allowing me to sin all my life. Are you claiming you've never sinned?



So He DOES allow us to sin, Sheesh, make up your mind.




That is one of the stupidest things I have ever read. Obviously CHOOSING the wrong one is a CHOICE!
Click to expand...
Here is your choice:
Pick A or B
Choose A and everything is copacetic
Choose B and I bring the hammer down on your head

Are you really arguing that you are truly free to pick B?


Again, your logic is akin to one 'choosing' to have his kneecaps busted by virtue of declining to pay protection money to the mob
 
treeplanter said:
For those Christians who believe that God gave us free will and refrains from interfering where the exercising of free will is concerned:

How do you reconcile the account of the Flood?

Scripture tells us that God saw "how great the wickedness of the human race had become" and that "every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time"

Clearly, the human race had exercised it's free will
Clearly, the human race chose, for itself, evil

And, clearly, God interfered with man's free will choice!
God took away man's prerogative to live a life of evil when, in The Flood, He took away man's very life


Please, spare me the "God didn't interfere with the free will choice to be evil - all He did was to ensure that there be a consequence to this free will choice" bit

This line of reasoning doesn't work within the context of "God doesn't send us to Hell, we send ourselves to Hell" and it doesn't work here either...
Click to expand...
I don't believe in free will unto salvation. There is not a single verse in the entire Bible that says it is.
 
treeplanter said:
Here is your choice:
Pick A or B
Choose A and everything is copacetic
Choose B and I bring the hammer down on your head

Are you really arguing that you are truly free to pick B?
Click to expand...

Hilarious. You changed the verb "choose" to "pick."

How in the hell can you bring a hammer down on a head for CHOOSING B if one is not free to CHOOSE B?

Seriously, one's IQ lowers 10 points just by pondering the idiocy.
 
treeplanter said:
There is no governmental pretense that we are afforded a free will choice as regarding murder, stiggy
It is made clear, up front, that choosing non-murder is acceptable and choosing murder will not be tolerated

Your claim, however, is that God
{unlike the government}
chooses NOT to interfere in our free will choices

However, The Great Flood proves otherwise...
Click to expand...
No, it doesn't.
 
treeplanter said:
There is no governmental pretense that we are afforded a free will choice as regarding murder, stiggy
It is made clear, up front, that choosing non-murder is acceptable and choosing murder will not be tolerated

Your claim, however, is that God
{unlike the government}
chooses NOT to interfere in our free will choices

However, The Great Flood proves otherwise...
Click to expand...

I think you forgot that God is also a judge. Where there is a judge, there are laws to follow to prevent lawlessness, so that a society can have peace and order. You have free will to do whatever you want. I have the free will to do good. I have conscience and a choice. I choose to do good. However, your freedom of free will might be taken from someone who will do you harm. That someone has a free will too to kill you and to steal your possessions. He also has that free will to take away your free will by making you follow whatever they tell you, or else you're dead.

So, how do you protect yourself from people who chose to do a life of crime according to their free will? You have laws so your freedom, safety, and free will be protected by taking away their free will. Free will should not be given to people who are lawless. The great flood precisely did this.

However, it really doesn't matter whether the great flood happened or not. Eventually, people will wipe themselves out by their lawlessness. The great flood was there to preserve humans from going extinct by taking the lives of all, except 8 and to start a new beginning to multiply again and spread across the Earth.
 
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