Free Will as taught in Scripture

[fltom]

Wow, so you actually DO know the difference?

So do you ALSO know the difference bewteen Paul's theology and YOUR MISINTERPRETATION of Paul's theology (which is what we reject)?

You see, Tom, you are engaging in a blatant and uncharitable double standard.
Whenever we reject your MISINTERPRETATION, you falsely accuse us of "rejecting Scripture".
Yet when we demonstrate that YOU reject Scripture, you claim that you're not, but that you're only rejecting our "interpretation".

Sorry, you can't have it both ways.
It's a blatant double standard.



No, Tom... That's what YOU do.

Indeed scripture shows it to be so

of course you will not address it

Romans 9:30–32 (KJV 1900) — 30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

Romans 10:16–21 (KJV 1900) — 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. 18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world. 19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you. 20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. 21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

Romans 11:20–23 (KJV 1900) — 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

unconditional elect was not the reason for Israel's failure

 

[fltom]

I know exactly what I'm talking about Tom.

In God's universe, He is on the throne.

In yours and Leighton's universe, He is not on the throne, you are.

Nonesense

You assume being on the throne requires the determination of everything

it is merely an assumption

 

[Howie]

Nonesense [sic]

You assume being on the throne requires the determination of everything

it is merely an assumption

Tom, I'm stating that yours and Leighton's lip-service to God as Sovereign over all things is contradicted by your heart's belief that man is soverign over his salvation.

 

[Sketo]

Did you?

Did you know your desires and circumstances were determined and that according to it you can only do what your greatest desire is

This statement ignores the distinction between physical ability and moral inability.

…

 

[fltom]

This statement ignores the distinction between physical ability and moral inability.

…

You have provided no evidence to support that

So it is a worthless claim

 

[fltom]

Tom, I'm stating that yours and Leighton's lip-service to God as Sovereign over all things is contradicted by your heart's belief that man is soverign over his salvation.

sorry that is a fabrication and not my belief

Provide a quote

 

[Sketo]

This statement ignores the distinction between physical ability and moral inability.

You have provided no evidence to support that

So it is a worthless claim

Can you both have the physical ability to kill a family member and also the inability to “want to” kill that family member?

Your answer will be my evidence… if you don’t avoid the question that is.

…

 

[fltom]

Can you both have the physical ability to kill a family member and also the inability to “want to” kill that family member?

Your answer will be my evidence… if you don’t avoid the question that is.

…

That does nothing at all to prove the point

i stated

Did you know your desires and circumstances were determined and that according to it you can only do what your greatest desire is

That is Calvinist compatibilist theology pure and simple

your desires are determined as are your circumstances

Compatibilism (also known as soft determinism), is the belief that God's predetermination and meticulous providence is "compatible" with voluntary choice. In light of Scripture, human choices are believed to be exercised voluntarily but the desires and circumstances that bring about these choices about occur through divine determinism

 

[Leatherneck0311]

Let's emphasize this. Man's will is only as free as his nature allows. A fallen man will make free-will choices based upon his fallen nature.

10 as it is written:

“None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”
13 “Their throat is an open grave;
they use their tongues to deceive.”
“The venom of asps is under their lips.”
14 “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.”
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 in their paths are ruin and misery,
17 and the way of peace they have not known.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

You do understand that Paul is explaining that no one can be justified by the law and those who are trying to be justified by the law do not seek God. Why did you stop there ?—->

Rom 3:21 - But now the righteousness of God withoutthe law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

Rom 3:22 - Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ-unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Rom 3:23 - For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Rom 3:24 - Being justifiedfreely by his grace throughthe redemption that is inChrist Jesus:

Rom 3:25 - Whom Godhath set forth to be a propitiation through faith inhis blood, to declare hisrighteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearanceof God;

Rom 3:26 - To declare, I say, at this time hisrighteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of himwhich believeth in Jesus.

Rom 3:27 - Where isboasting then? It is excluded.By what law? of works? Nay:but by the law of faith.

Rom 3:28 - Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

 

[Sketo]

That does nothing at all to prove the point

i stated

Did you know your desires and circumstances were determined and that according to it you can only do what your greatest desire is

That is Calvinist compatibilist theology pure and simple

But that's your misunderstanding.

"can only do" implies a physical inability but that is not the Calvinist view.

Calvinism = You can't do what you don't want to do, but you could if you had wanted to.

A physical ability and a moral inability can both be in play at the same time.

...

 

[Howie]

sorry that is a fabrication and not my belief

Provide a quote

I see it in your theology, Tom.

You don't need God to give faith or choose you to believe. You'll do that all by yourself.

 

[fltom]

I see it in your theology, Tom.

You don't need God to give faith or choose you to believe. You'll do that all by yourself.

As per scripture which never teaches God irresistibly unilaterally infuses faith in any one

 

[Yodas_Prodigy]

As per scripture which never teaches God irresistibly unilaterally infuses faith in any one

How does this fit in?

Romans 12:3​

3 For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned.

 

[Yodas_Prodigy]

You do understand that Paul is explaining that no one can be justified by the law and those who are trying to be justified by the law do not seek God. Why did you stop there ?—->

Rom 3:21 - But now the righteousness of God withoutthe law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

Rom 3:22 - Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ-unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Rom 3:23 - For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Rom 3:24 - Being justifiedfreely by his grace throughthe redemption that is inChrist Jesus:

Rom 3:25 - Whom Godhath set forth to be a propitiation through faith inhis blood, to declare hisrighteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearanceof God;

Rom 3:26 - To declare, I say, at this time hisrighteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of himwhich believeth in Jesus.

Rom 3:27 - Where isboasting then? It is excluded.By what law? of works? Nay:but by the law of faith.

Rom 3:28 - Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, 10 as it is written:

“None is righteous, no, not one;

 

[Leatherneck0311]

both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, 10 as it is written:

“None is righteous, no, not one;

You missed it where Paul described those trying to be righteous by the law which Paul said would never happen , and then Paul moved on to faith , which had nothing to do with those trying to be righteous by the law. 3:20 ends wher Paul described there is no justification in the law, and 3:21 begins justification by faith of those that believe. You stopped before justification by faith to those that believe, which is pretty typical for Calvinist to do because as usual you only told half of the story because the rest of what Paul taught refutes Calvinism.

 

[fltom]

How does this fit in?

Romans 12:3​

3 For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned.

Saving faith is not the subject here. Look at the context

Romans 12:1–8 (KJV 1900) — 1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. 3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. 4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: 5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another. 6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith; 7 Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching; 8 Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness.

Its faith in the operation of minstry gifts

 

[Reformedguy]

Can you both have the physical ability to kill a family member and also the inability to “want to” kill that family member?

Your answer will be my evidence… if you don’t avoid the question that is.

…

He avoided the question right on que.

 

[Reformedguy]

That does nothing at all to prove the point

i stated

Did you know your desires and circumstances were determined and that according to it you can only do what your greatest desire is

That is Calvinist compatibilist theology pure and simple

your desires are determined as are your circumstances

Compatibilism (also known as soft determinism), is the belief that God's predetermination and meticulous providence is "compatible" with voluntary choice. In light of Scripture, human choices are believed to be exercised voluntarily but the desires and circumstances that bring about these choices about occur through divine determinism

Dodging his question. By the way you passed my compatibilist test so and agreed with the outcome. Tom is a compatibilist

 

[Kampioen]

Men are volitional free agents. They make choices within the boundaries of their nature.

How tight are those boundaries? Any free room at all?

 

[Howie]

How tight are those boundaries? Any free room at all?

Scripture asserts you (and your will) are enslaved, either to sin (unbelief), or righteousness (through faith).

That's it. Understand, unregenerate man's condition is so dire, the Trinity agreed within itself, that the only acceptable solution was for the Son to take on flesh and die in man's place.