Your last two in good faith.
Answer my question, that's the answer to your absurd first question.
Or, answer this question: Is a dog a cat?
Free Will as taught in Scripture
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Answer my question, that's the answer to your absurd first question.
Or, answer this question: Is a dog a cat?
What did you believe before encountering scripture, or what would you have said if plain asked about it?
"God is a libertarian" is nothing more than an opinion, an unsupported assumption.
If you ever get around to sitting down and reading scripture, you will never find God revealed as libertarian.
You need to repent, Kapioen.
Ok. You don't believe God is libertarian. Then you believe scripture presents God as predetermined.
Then you believe God has no other choice than to give us no other choice.
You should at least see God as libertarian.
No, as CREATOR and SUSTAINER OF ALL THINGS.
Prove it
Have a nice evening
Er calvinism ?
Reformedguy
Well-known member
Qutoes?
If God merely foresaw human events, and did not also arrange and dispose of them at his pleasure, there might be room for agitating the question, how far his foreknowledge amounts to necessity; but since he foresees the things which are to happen, simply because he has decreed that they are so to happen, it is vain to debate about prescience, while it is clear that all events take place by his sovereign appointment.
(John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 6)
…God is the only being who is ultimately self-determining, and is himself ultimately the disposer of all things, including all choices — however many or diverse other intervening causes are. On this definition, no human being has free will, at any time. Neither before or after the fall, or in heaven, are creatures ultimately self-determining. Beginners guide to free will John Piper website
Nothing that exists or occurs falls outside God’s ordaining will. Nothing, including no evil person or thing or event or deed. God’s foreordination is the ultimate reason why everything comes about, including the existence of all evil persons and things and the occurrence of any evil acts or events. And so it is not inappropriate to take God to be the creator, the sender, the permitter, and sometimes even the instigator of evil… Nothing — no evil thing or person or event or deed — falls outside God’s ordaining will. Nothing arises, exists, or endures independently of God’s will. So when even the worst of evils befall us, they do not ultimately come from anywhere other than God’s hand.
b Talbot, "All the Good That Is Ours in Christ", in Suffering and the Sovereignty of God, ed. John Piper and Justin Taylor,
Quote may be found
All the Good That Is Ours in Christ: Seeing God's Gracious Hand in the Hurts Others Do to Us
“Never shall I forget those moments that murdered my God and my soul and turned my dreams to ashes.” Nobel Peace Prize winner Elie Wiesel wrote these words in light of his horrific experience at Auschwitz. He questioned where God was during his unjust suffering. Many of us wonder the same.
www.desiringgod.org
Reformedguy
Well-known member
Worthless. Not one of those says we should assume "exhaustive predetermination."If God merely foresaw human events, and did not also arrange and dispose of them at his pleasure, there might be room for agitating the question, how far his foreknowledge amounts to necessity; but since he foresees the things which are to happen, simply because he has decreed that they are so to happen, it is vain to debate about prescience, while it is clear that all events take place by his sovereign appointment.
(John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 6)
…God is the only being who is ultimately self-determining, and is himself ultimately the disposer of all things, including all choices — however many or diverse other intervening causes are. On this definition, no human being has free will, at any time. Neither before or after the fall, or in heaven, are creatures ultimately self-determining. Beginners guide to free will John Piper website
Nothing that exists or occurs falls outside God’s ordaining will. Nothing, including no evil person or thing or event or deed. God’s foreordination is the ultimate reason why everything comes about, including the existence of all evil persons and things and the occurrence of any evil acts or events. And so it is not inappropriate to take God to be the creator, the sender, the permitter, and sometimes even the instigator of evil… Nothing — no evil thing or person or event or deed — falls outside God’s ordaining will. Nothing arises, exists, or endures independently of God’s will. So when even the worst of evils befall us, they do not ultimately come from anywhere other than God’s hand.
b Talbot, "All the Good That Is Ours in Christ", in Suffering and the Sovereignty of God, ed. John Piper and Justin Taylor,
Quote may be found
All the Good That Is Ours in Christ: Seeing God's Gracious Hand in the Hurts Others Do to Us
“Never shall I forget those moments that murdered my God and my soul and turned my dreams to ashes.” Nobel Peace Prize winner Elie Wiesel wrote these words in light of his horrific experience at Auschwitz. He questioned where God was during his unjust suffering. Many of us wonder the same.
Basic elementary reading
do it
Free Will as taught in Scripture
So both God's and our wills are enslaved? Your last two in good faith. Answer my question, that's the answer to your absurd first question. Or, answer this question: Is a dog a cat?
forums.carm.org
Reformedguy
Well-known member
Read. No mention of assuming "exhaustive predetermination". Do you actually read the sources you lift from whatever site you get them from?
preacher4truth
Well-known member
lolzzz...
Um, that would be a negative. That's why I got done fooling around with responding. There would be posts given, quotes of others, I recall Barnes in particular, and all the bolding, italicizing, underlining didn't help because if one merely and actually READ the quote offered one would see the quote literally REFUTED HIM and reinforced our position.
It is a complete waste of time, and it is also refreshing ignoring his posts. "Gotta hurry and paste something, a quote, wall of verses, claim victory, use ad hom, tell them they don't believe, ignore, run, deny, bald denials!, can't answer, sorry, hello, and I don't have time to punctuate, gotta answer every post!"
Um...no thanks.
Reformedguy
Well-known member
He is a cherry picker. Always wise to read his citations from the orginal source to get context.
preacher4truth
Well-known member
Yep, "disgraceful, underhanded ways" (2 Corinthians 4:2) have not been renounced, they've been implemented. One becomes like their teacher, i.e. flowers, Luke 6:40.
are you capable of reading a passage without bias
If God merely foresaw human events, and did not also arrange and dispose of them at his pleasure, there might be room for agitating the question, how far his foreknowledge amounts to necessity; but since he foresees the things which are to happen, simply because he has decreed that they are so to happen, it is vain to debate about prescience, while it is clear that all events take place by his sovereign appointment.
(John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 6)
all events that is exhautive determination
…God is the only being who is ultimately self-determining, and is himself ultimately the disposer of all things, including all choices — however many or diverse other intervening causes are. On this definition, no human being has free will, at any time. Neither before or after the fall, or in heaven, are creatures ultimately self-determining. Beginners guide to free will John Piper website
all things - exhaustive determination
Nothing that exists or occurs falls outside God’s ordaining will. Nothing, including no evil person or thing or event or deed. God’s foreordination is the ultimate reason why everything comes about, including the existence of all evil persons and things and the occurrence of any evil acts or events. And so it is not inappropriate to take God to be the creator, the sender, the permitter, and sometimes even the instigator of evil… Nothing — no evil thing or person or event or deed — falls outside God’s ordaining will. Nothing arises, exists, or endures independently of God’s will. So when even the worst of evils befall us, they do not ultimately come from anywhere other than God’s hand.
b Talbot, "All the Good That Is Ours in Christ", in Suffering and the Sovereignty of God, ed. John Piper and Justin Taylor,
everything exhaustive determination
you are in denial
Lol you do not know how to determine a context
Reformedguy
Well-known member
Ya, and you do. Try actually offering it sometime.
Reformedguy
Well-known member
That's not the question genius. The question was should we assume it. Nothing about assuming anything in your cherry picked sources. You cannot even cherry pick correctly.