Free Will Meticulously Examined… and Refuted!

Sketo

Well-known member


Timestamp Outline for Your convenience!
1.5x Speed recommended. ⚙️

00:00:00 Intro
0:03:22 Properly defining "freewill"
0:06:36 Foundational verses
00:11:40 Addressing Deiesm heresy
00:15:38 Determinism established
00:20:11 …Visual example
00:25:06 Practical applications
00:30:08 Foundation necessary Eph 1:11
00:32:28 Misconceptions (semi-Deism)
00:36:21 Misunderstanding (God's involvement in creation)
00:41:54 Transcendent Author explained
00:45:07 God not just Author
00:47:11 Foundation question
00:52:12 Omni-atributes addressed
00:55:24 "Omnipotence" specifically
00:58:29 God can not "give" freedom
01:05:05 "Forced" assumption addressed
01:11:11 Meticulous Control or Duelism
01:13:00 Direct and Indirect causes addressed
01:16:46 "CHOICE" critically examined
01:21:00 God's "choice" different from man's "choice"
01:22:35 "choice" IN Finite Realm examined
01:27:13 "choice IN Infinite Realm examined
01:30:42 self-determinism IN finite realm = circular
01:32:06 "reason for choice" = Determinism
01:33:56 Different Circumstances Examined
01:35:45 "God has freewill so I can too" examined
01:39:22 God's choice BEFORE time and IN time
01:43:18 "Choice according to your GREATEST desire"
01:45:19 Can "desires" change... tomorrow?
01:46:50 "Ability to choose among competing desires" examined
01:52:05 Choice thought experiment
01:54:55 "ability to do otherwise" examined
02:04:31 "freewill" equivalent to illusion, magic trick, luck
02:11:53 If "freedom" = doing what you "want"
02:13:11 Believing "freewill" is not stupid
02:17:23 "freewill" assumed without foundation
02:20:37 PROBLEM OF EVIL
02:24:21 what is "evil"/"sin"?
02:26:52 what does "God can not sin" mean?
02:29:30 is God "responsible" for sin?
02:34:43 God the "Author" of sin addressed
02:37:11 emotional arguments addressed
02:40:21 "freewill" cant answer for "evil"
02:42:13 God "gave" freewill examined
02:47:07 "God allows/permits evil" examined
02:50:02 FAIRNESS examined
02:52:30 if God has the power to stop sin examined
02:53:08 RESPONSABILITY turned around
03:00:08 humanistic examples dont apply to God

03:04:16 QUESTIONS FOR FREEWILLERS
3:11:42 QUESTION 1 (If God knows, that by creating you, you will end up in hell, how is he not determined you to end up in hell by creating you?)
3:13:54 obj¹ ▶️“just because God foreknows does not mean he determined it” can not apply to God
3:19:29 obj² metaphysical disconnect argument
3:23:38 obj3 “God can foreknow independent from creating you” examined

3:25:53 QUESTION 1.1 (Why would God create anybody that He 100% knows will end up in hell?)
3:27:05 obj¹ difference between what God commands and what God “wants” to com to pass
3:27:48 example Christ Crucified
3:30:22 example Pharaoh
3:31:15 example joseph

03:32:44 QUESTION 2 (Could God have created [those he knew would end in hell] differently?)
03:35:24 QUESTION 2.5 (If God could… why didn’t He?)

03:38:52 “chooser of your own choices" second-layer fallacy examined
03:42:34 God as Divine Author Chapter/Verse
03:45:04 freewill makes God a "robot"
03:49:10 Molanism "God must deal with the hand dealt" addressed
03:51:36 Calvinism is the only system where God is "free"
03:54:06 ▶️"freewill" can not answer for Adam's fall

03:56:20 QUESTION 3 (If freewill is true why has there never been a sinless human?)
03:57:20 “freewill is necessary for true relationship” examined and refuted
04:00:58 only determinism can answer why no sinless humans?

04:02:15 QUESTION 4 (How does “eternal security” fit in a freewill system?)

04:04:00 QUESTION 5 (How can is be said “God is sending the Gospel” if it is up to the “freewill” of man?/ Who gets credit?)
04:05:44 QUESTION 5.5 (Why does God "send" the Gospel to those he knows will reject it?)

04:08:33 QUESTION 6 (Do you exist because of God’s “choice” or your parent’s “freewill choice”?)

04:12:28 QUESTION 7 (Why do “freewill” proponents say “Lord willing"? James 4:15)

04:15:12 QUESTION 8 (If freewill is true why "pray"?)

04:18:28 QUESTION 9 (How is it “fair” that God chooses when, where, and how to make you?)

04:20:44 QUESTION 1.2 (Questioning Melanism in light of “fairness”)

04:23:24 QUESTION 10 (Which view actually presents God as “bigger/better”?) [Leighton’s “chessboard analogy”]
04:26:31 QUESTION 10.1 (Can God be “bigger” by choosing to “limit” his knowledge to allow for freewill?)
04:29:18 QUESTION 10.2 (How is God being in control of all things a “lesser view”?)

04:32:35 ⭐️QUESTION 11 (Can God determine that you do what you “WANT” to do, and it also be what He “WANTS” you to do?)
04:37:48 ⭐️QUESTION 11 reiterated (Can God determine that you do what He “WANTS” you to do, and it also be what you “WANT” to do?
04:40:00 ⭐️⭐️QUESTION 11 If you answer yes this is why you lose the debate.

04:46:30 Conclusion

The Consistent Calvinism Podcast
 

Dizerner

Well-known member
3:11:42 QUESTION 1 If God knows, that by creating you, you will end up in hell, how is he not determined you to end up in hell by creating you?

Because neither God's creation nor his foreknowledge are the causal instruments of my own destruction.

3:25:53 QUESTION 1.1 Why would God create anybody that He 100% knows will end up in hell?

Because God values the autonomous ability of creation to glorify him over our own selfish desire that no one suffer.

03:32:44 QUESTION 2 Could God have created [those he knew would end in hell] differently?

God cannot create a true autonomy if he himself decides the autonomous outcome.

03:35:24 QUESTION 2.5 If God could… why didn’t He?

Because God values the autonomous ability of creation to glorify him over our own selfish desire that no one suffer.

03:56:20 QUESTION 3 If freewill is true why has there never been a sinless human?

Because free will nowhere logically necessitates that all available options be present.

04:02:15 QUESTION 4 How does “eternal security” fit in a freewill system?

A one-time decision producing eternal consequences does not logically contradict that decision being autonomous.

04:04:00 QUESTION 5 How can is be said “God is sending the Gospel” if it is up to the “freewill” of man?/ Who gets credit?

God can use free will decisions to help spread the Gospel without those decisions being necessarily meritorious in nature.

04:05:44 QUESTION 5.5 Why does God "send" the Gospel to those he knows will reject it?

Because God values potentials and possibilities and opportunities to express the goodness of his nature.

04:08:33 QUESTION 6 Do you exist because of God’s “choice” or your parent’s “freewill choice”?

I'm not sure they're mutually exclusive.

04:12:28 QUESTION 7 Why do “freewill” proponents say “Lord willing"? James 4:15

Because free will does not logically necessitate the elimination of God's will.

04:15:12 QUESTION 8 If freewill is true why "pray"?

Because God instituted prayer and it finds its deepest meaning if done with a free will.

04:18:28 QUESTION 9 How is it “fair” that God chooses when, where, and how to make you?

Fair is a complicated term used in relation to a moral compass of values perceived as justice, so God determines what fair is, not us.

04:20:44 QUESTION 1.2 Questioning Melanism in light of “fairness”

I assume this means "Molinism"...

04:23:24 QUESTION 10 Which view actually presents God as “bigger/better”?) [Leighton’s “chessboard analogy”

Bigger and better?! This is not a proper criterion.

04:26:31 QUESTION 10.1 Can God be “bigger” by choosing to “limit” his knowledge to allow for freewill?

Nothing makes God "bigger," God is limitless by definition.

04:29:18 QUESTION 10.2 How is God being in control of all things a “lesser view”?

Because it's unbiblical.

04:32:35 ⭐️QUESTION 11 Can God determine that you do what you “WANT” to do, and it also be what He “WANTS” you to do?

It's a theoretical possibility, but unbiblical.

04:40:00 ⭐️⭐️QUESTION 11 If you answer yes this is why you lose the debate.

Illogical.


Free will exegeted from Genesis 20:


Free will Biblically defended:

 

TomFL

Well-known member
If you go to the actual YouTube video itself, the timestamps are now live and more convenient!
You can't refute scripture

(ARV 2005) but without thy mind I would do nothing, that thy goodness should not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(ASV-2014) but without thy mind I would do nothing; that thy goodness should not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(Anderson) but, without your consent, I was not willing to do any thing, that your good deed might not be as a matter of necessity, but one of free-will.
(ASV) but without thy mind I would do nothing; that thy goodness should not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(FAA) but I did not want to do anything without your opinion, so that your good deed would not be as it were under compulsion, but of free will.
(GDBY_NT) but without your consent I did not wish to do anything; in order that your good might not be by constraint, but by the free will:
(GW) Yet, I didn't want to do anything without your consent. I want you to do this favor for me out of your own free will without feeling forced to do it.
(csb) But I didn't want to do anything without your consent, so that your good deed might not be out of obligation, but of your own free will.
(LEB) But apart from your consent, I wanted to do nothing, in order that your good deed might be not as according to necessity, but according to your own free will.
(MRC) but without your consent I did not want to do anything, that your goodness might not be by necessity, but of your own free will.
(MNT) But without your consent I was unwilling to do anything, so that your kindness to me might be of your own free will, and not of compulsion.
(NTVR) but without thy mind I would do nothing; that thy goodness should not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(NWT) But without your consent I do not want to do anything, so that your good act may be, not as under compulsion, but of your own free will.
(Revised Standard ) but I preferred to do nothing without your consent in order that your goodness might not be by compulsion but of your own free will.
(RNT) but without your consent I am unwilling to do anything, so that your goodness may not be of necessity but of free will.
(RSV-CE) but I preferred to do nothing without your consent in order that your goodness might not be by compulsion but of your own free will.
(TLV) But I didn’t want to do anything without your consent, so that your goodness wouldn’t be by force but by free will.
(WEB) But I was willing to do nothing without your consent, that your goodness would not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(WEB (R)) But I was willing to do nothing without your consent, that your goodness would not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(Wuest's) Georgia;;14-16 But I came to a decision in my heart to do nothing without your consent, in order that your goodness might not be as it were by compulsion but of your own free will. For perhaps on this account he was parted for a brief time in order that you might be possessing him fully and forever, no longer in the capacity of a slave, but above a slave, a brother , a beloved one, beloved most of all by me, how much more than that by you, both in his human relationship and in the Lord.
(NASB77) 14 but without your consent I did not want to do anything, that your goodness should not be as it were by compulsion, but of your own free will.
(NASB95) 14 but without your consent I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will.
(TEV) 14 However, I do not want to force you to help me; rather, I would like for you to do it of your own free will. So I will not do anything unless you agree.
(ERV) 14 but without thy mind I would do nothing; that thy goodness should not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(NHEB) 14 But I was willing to do nothing without your consent, that your goodness would not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(TCE) 14 but without your consent I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will.
and you can add both the NEB and the REB

CT 14 but I would not do any thing without thy consent, that the benefit derived from thee might not be as it were forced, but of free will.



NENT 14
but without thy: mind I wished to do nothing; that thy: goodness be not as of necessity, but of free will.

SLT 14 But without thy judgment I would do nothing; that good might not be as according to necessity, but according to free will.



(NEB)
14 But I would rather do nothing without your consent, so that your kindness may be a matter not of compulsion, but of your own free will.



(REB) 14 But I would rather do nothing without your consent, so that your kindness may be a matter not of compulsion, but of your own free will.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
You can't refute scripture

But we can EASILY refute your MISINTERPRETATION of Scripture.

(ARV 2005) but without thy mind I would do nothing, that thy goodness should not be as of necessity, but of free will.

First of all, this is NOT about "free will" regarding salvation, it is a letter written to Philemon, asking him to receive Onesimus back, as a brother in Christ, without punishing him for running away. He is hoping that Philemon will do so willingly, although Paul could make him do it.

All this means is that he doesn't want Onesimus to be "coerced" or "forced" to take him back, but to agree with Paul's view.

The Greek word translated as "free will" is "εκουσιος", and simply means "voluntarily":

BDAG:
ἑκούσιος, ία, ιον
(s. next; Soph., Thu. et al.; ins, pap, LXX; TestLevi 9:7; Philo) pert to doing someth. of one’s own volition, voluntary, as a volunteer of backsliders MPol 4 (Zahn’s cj. for ἑαυτοῖς or ἑαυτούς). καθ᾿ ἑκουσίαν [sc. γνώμην]; as opposed to legal compulsion


Mounce Greek Dictionary
ἑκούσιος hekousios voluntary, spontaneous,


Now, you tried to "bury" us in translations that rendered it, "free will". But I noticed that the bulk of them are translations nobody's ever heard of (eg. MRC), and even heretical Bibles known to be inaccurate (eg. NWT).

How do mainstream Bibles render the term?:

But without thy mind would I do nothing; that thy benefit should not be as it were of necessity, but willingly. (KJV)

But without your consent I wanted to do nothing, that your good deed might not be by compulsion, as it were, but voluntary. (NKJV)

But I didn’t want to do anything without your consent. I wanted you to help because you were willing, not because you were forced (NLT)

But I did not want to do anything without your consent, so that any favor you do would not seem forced but would be voluntary. (NIV)

but I preferred to do nothing without your consent in order that your goodness might not be by compulsion but of your own accord. (ESV)

However, without your consent I did not want to do anything, so that your good deed would not be out of compulsion, but from your own willingness. (NET)

and apart from thy mind I willed to do nothing, that as of necessity thy good deed may not be, but of willingness, (YLT)

but I have wished to do nothing without thy mind, that thy good might not be as of necessity but of willingness: (DBY)

But without thy mind I would do nothing; that thy benefit should not be as it were of necessity, but willingly. (WEB)

sine consilio autem tuo nihil volui facere uti ne velut ex necessitate bonum tuum esset sed voluntarium (VUL)


So why didn't you quote any of THESE Bibles, Tom?

"εκούσιας" doesn't mean "free will" in the sense you want to project onto the term.
It simply means "voluntarily", "willingly", "without force", "without coercion".
 

Sketo

Well-known member
You can't refute scripture

(ARV 2005) but without thy mind I would do nothing, that thy goodness should not be as of necessity, but of free will.

🤣🤣🤣 Your definition of "freewill" is meaningless now Tom.

Did you watch these 👇 before you posted that?
0:03:22 Properly defining "freewill"
And
02:11:53 If "freedom" = doing what you "want"
 

Carbon

Well-known member
But we can EASILY refute your MISINTERPRETATION of Scripture.



First of all, this is NOT about "free will" regarding salvation, it is a letter written to Philemon, asking him to receive Onesimus back, as a brother in Christ, without punishing him for running away. He is hoping that Philemon will do so willingly, although Paul could make him do it.

All this means is that he doesn't want Onesimus to be "coerced" or "forced" to take him back, but to agree with Paul's view.

The Greek word translated as "free will" is "εκουσιος", and simply means "voluntarily":

BDAG:
ἑκούσιος, ία, ιον
(s. next; Soph., Thu. et al.; ins, pap, LXX; TestLevi 9:7; Philo) pert to doing someth. of one’s own volition, voluntary, as a volunteer of backsliders MPol 4 (Zahn’s cj. for ἑαυτοῖς or ἑαυτούς). καθ᾿ ἑκουσίαν [sc. γνώμην]; as opposed to legal compulsion


Mounce Greek Dictionary
ἑκούσιος hekousios voluntary, spontaneous,


Now, you tried to "bury" us in translations that rendered it, "free will". But I noticed that the bulk of them are translations nobody's ever heard of (eg. MRC), and even heretical Bibles known to be inaccurate (eg. NWT).

How do mainstream Bibles render the term?:

But without thy mind would I do nothing; that thy benefit should not be as it were of necessity, but willingly. (KJV)

But without your consent I wanted to do nothing, that your good deed might not be by compulsion, as it were, but voluntary. (NKJV)

But I didn’t want to do anything without your consent. I wanted you to help because you were willing, not because you were forced (NLT)

But I did not want to do anything without your consent, so that any favor you do would not seem forced but would be voluntary. (NIV)

but I preferred to do nothing without your consent in order that your goodness might not be by compulsion but of your own accord. (ESV)

However, without your consent I did not want to do anything, so that your good deed would not be out of compulsion, but from your own willingness. (NET)

and apart from thy mind I willed to do nothing, that as of necessity thy good deed may not be, but of willingness, (YLT)

but I have wished to do nothing without thy mind, that thy good might not be as of necessity but of willingness: (DBY)

But without thy mind I would do nothing; that thy benefit should not be as it were of necessity, but willingly. (WEB)

sine consilio autem tuo nihil volui facere uti ne velut ex necessitate bonum tuum esset sed voluntarium (VUL)


So why didn't you quote any of THESE Bibles, Tom?

"εκούσιας" doesn't mean "free will" in the sense you want to project onto the term.
It simply means "voluntarily", "willingly", "without force", "without coercion".
your speaking on deaf ears.
 

Carbon

Well-known member
🤣🤣🤣 Your definition of "freewill" is meaningless now Tom.

Did you watch these 👇 before you posted that?
0:03:22 Properly defining "freewill"
And
02:11:53 If "freedom" = doing what you "want"
Well all the free willers have to do is decide of their own free will to ignore these truths, eventually they become meaningless and go away.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
🤣🤣🤣 Your definition of "freewill" is meaningless now Tom.

Did you watch these 👇 before you posted that?
0:03:22 Properly defining "freewill"
And
02:11:53 If "freedom" = doing what you "want"

Do you imagine you can overturn scripture with a video

What happened to sola scriptura

Have you abandoned it to save your theology

(ARV 2005) but without thy mind I would do nothing, that thy goodness should not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(ASV-2014) but without thy mind I would do nothing; that thy goodness should not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(Anderson) but, without your consent, I was not willing to do any thing, that your good deed might not be as a matter of necessity, but one of free-will.
(ASV) but without thy mind I would do nothing; that thy goodness should not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(FAA) but I did not want to do anything without your opinion, so that your good deed would not be as it were under compulsion, but of free will.
(GDBY_NT) but without your consent I did not wish to do anything; in order that your good might not be by constraint, but by the free will:
(GW) Yet, I didn't want to do anything without your consent. I want you to do this favor for me out of your own free will without feeling forced to do it.
(csb) But I didn't want to do anything without your consent, so that your good deed might not be out of obligation, but of your own free will.
(LEB) But apart from your consent, I wanted to do nothing, in order that your good deed might be not as according to necessity, but according to your own free will.
(MRC) but without your consent I did not want to do anything, that your goodness might not be by necessity, but of your own free will.
(MNT) But without your consent I was unwilling to do anything, so that your kindness to me might be of your own free will, and not of compulsion.
(NTVR) but without thy mind I would do nothing; that thy goodness should not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(Revised Standard ) but I preferred to do nothing without your consent in order that your goodness might not be by compulsion but of your own free will.
(RNT) but without your consent I am unwilling to do anything, so that your goodness may not be of necessity but of free will.
(RSV-CE) but I preferred to do nothing without your consent in order that your goodness might not be by compulsion but of your own free will.
(TLV) But I didn’t want to do anything without your consent, so that your goodness wouldn’t be by force but by free will.
(WEB) But I was willing to do nothing without your consent, that your goodness would not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(WEB (R)) But I was willing to do nothing without your consent, that your goodness would not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(Wuest's) Georgia;;14-16 But I came to a decision in my heart to do nothing without your consent, in order that your goodness might not be as it were by compulsion but of your own free will. For perhaps on this account he was parted for a brief time in order that you might be possessing him fully and forever, no longer in the capacity of a slave, but above a slave, a brother , a beloved one, beloved most of all by me, how much more than that by you, both in his human relationship and in the Lord.
(NASB77) 14 but without your consent I did not want to do anything, that your goodness should not be as it were by compulsion, but of your own free will.
(NASB95) 14 but without your consent I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will.
(TEV) 14 However, I do not want to force you to help me; rather, I would like for you to do it of your own free will. So I will not do anything unless you agree.
(ERV) 14 but without thy mind I would do nothing; that thy goodness should not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(NHEB) 14 But I was willing to do nothing without your consent, that your goodness would not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(TCE) 14 but without your consent I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will.
and you can add both the NEB and the REB
CT 14 but I would not do any thing without thy consent, that the benefit derived from thee might not be as it were forced, but of free will.
NENT 14 but without thy: mind I wished to do nothing; that thy: goodness be not as of necessity, but of free will.
SLT 14 But without thy judgment I would do nothing; that good might not be as according to necessity, but according to free will.
(NEB) 14 But I would rather do nothing without your consent, so that your kindness may be a matter not of compulsion, but of your own free will.
(REB) 14 But I would rather do nothing without your consent, so that your kindness may be a matter not of compulsion, but of your own free will.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
But we can EASILY refute your MISINTERPRETATION of Scripture.

Afraid not You fail here as elsewhere
First of all, this is NOT about "free will" regarding salvation, it is a letter written to Philemon, asking him to receive Onesimus back, as a brother in Christ, without punishing him for running away. He is hoping that Philemon will do so willingly, although Paul could make him do it.

The topic is free will

so is it your view man has a free will (limited) but you don't believe it extends to salvation

If not you need to deal with all the scripture verses which speak of it




All this means is that he doesn't want Onesimus to be "coerced" or "forced" to take him back, but to agree with Paul's view.

Being coerced or forced is the opposite of freely acting by ones own will




The Greek word translated as "free will" is "εκουσιος", and simply means "voluntarily":

BDAG:
ἑκούσιος, ία, ιον
(s. next; Soph., Thu. et al.; ins, pap, LXX; TestLevi 9:7; Philo) pert to doing someth. of one’s own volition, voluntary, as a volunteer of backsliders MPol 4 (Zahn’s cj. for ἑαυτοῖς or ἑαυτούς). καθ᾿ ἑκουσίαν [sc. γνώμην]; as opposed to legal compulsion


Mounce Greek Dictionary
ἑκούσιος hekousios voluntary, spontaneous,
Lol voluntary is a synonym of free will

free will

NOUN

the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.

synonyms:

volition · independence · self-determination · self-sufficiency · autonomy · spontaneity · freedom · liberty · voluntarily · willingly · readily · freely · spontaneously · without reluctance · without being forced · without being asked · without being encouraged · of one's own accord · of one's own volition · of one's own choosing · by one's own preference



Now, you tried to "bury" us in translations that rendered it, "free will". But I noticed that the bulk of them are translations nobody's ever heard of (eg. MRC), and even heretical Bibles known to be inaccurate (eg. NWT).

the NASB

Never heard of that did you ?

The RSV


Never heard of that ?

ASV

Never heard of that ?

Christian standard bible (CSB)

Never heard of that ?

How do mainstream Bibles render the term?:

But without thy mind would I do nothing; that thy benefit should not be as it were of necessity, but willingly. (KJV)

But without your consent I wanted to do nothing, that your good deed might not be by compulsion, as it were, but voluntary. (NKJV)

But I didn’t want to do anything without your consent. I wanted you to help because you were willing, not because you were forced (NLT)

But I did not want to do anything without your consent, so that any favor you do would not seem forced but would be voluntary. (NIV)

but I preferred to do nothing without your consent in order that your goodness might not be by compulsion but of your own accord. (ESV)

However, without your consent I did not want to do anything, so that your good deed would not be out of compulsion, but from your own willingness. (NET)

and apart from thy mind I willed to do nothing, that as of necessity thy good deed may not be, but of willingness, (YLT)

but I have wished to do nothing without thy mind, that thy good might not be as of necessity but of willingness: (DBY)

But without thy mind I would do nothing; that thy benefit should not be as it were of necessity, but willingly. (WEB)

sine consilio autem tuo nihil volui facere uti ne velut ex necessitate bonum tuum esset sed voluntarium (VUL)


So why didn't you quote any of THESE Bibles, Tom?

"εκούσιας" doesn't mean "free will" in the sense you want to project onto the term.
It simply means "voluntarily", "willingly", "without force", "without coercion".

Again those are all synonyms of free will as shown above

but Are you saying

the Nasb77, Nasb95, RSV,ASV, CSB were/are not mainstream translations

If you recall the list was developed because you denied I could produce 20 translation that read free will

you lost that argument as well
 

TomFL

Well-known member
But we can EASILY refute your MISINTERPRETATION of Scripture.

Afraid not You fail here as elsewhere
First of all, this is NOT about "free will" regarding salvation, it is a letter written to Philemon, asking him to receive Onesimus back, as a brother in Christ, without punishing him for running away. He is hoping that Philemon will do so willingly, although Paul could make him do it.

The topic is free will

so is it your view man has a free will (limited) but you don't believe it extends to salvation

If not you need to deal with all the scripture verses which speak of it

Theo1689 stated

he doesn't want Onesimus to be "coerced" or "forced" to take him back, but to agree with Paul's view.

Being coerced or forced is the opposite of freely acting by ones own will




The Greek word translated as "free will" is "εκουσιος", and simply means "voluntarily":

BDAG:
ἑκούσιος, ία, ιον
(s. next; Soph., Thu. et al.; ins, pap, LXX; TestLevi 9:7; Philo) pert to doing someth. of one’s own volition, voluntary, as a volunteer of backsliders MPol 4 (Zahn’s cj. for ἑαυτοῖς or ἑαυτούς). καθ᾿ ἑκουσίαν [sc. γνώμην]; as opposed to legal compulsion


Mounce Greek Dictionary
ἑκούσιος hekousios voluntary, spontaneous,
Lol voluntary is a synonym of free will

free will

NOUN

the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.

synonyms:

volition · independence · self-determination · self-sufficiency · autonomy · spontaneity · freedom · liberty · voluntarily · willingly · readily · freely · spontaneously · without reluctance · without being forced · without being asked · without being encouraged · of one's own accord · of one's own volition · of one's own choosing · by one's own preference



Now, you tried to "bury" us in translations that rendered it, "free will". But I noticed that the bulk of them are translations nobody's ever heard of (eg. MRC), and even heretical Bibles known to be inaccurate (eg. NWT).

the NASB

Never heard of that did you ?

The RSV


Never heard of that ?

ASV

Never heard of that ?

Christian standard bible (CSB)

Never heard of that ?

How do mainstream Bibles render the term?:

But without thy mind would I do nothing; that thy benefit should not be as it were of necessity, but willingly. (KJV)

But without your consent I wanted to do nothing, that your good deed might not be by compulsion, as it were, but voluntary. (NKJV)

But I didn’t want to do anything without your consent. I wanted you to help because you were willing, not because you were forced (NLT)

But I did not want to do anything without your consent, so that any favor you do would not seem forced but would be voluntary. (NIV)

but I preferred to do nothing without your consent in order that your goodness might not be by compulsion but of your own accord. (ESV)

However, without your consent I did not want to do anything, so that your good deed would not be out of compulsion, but from your own willingness. (NET)

and apart from thy mind I willed to do nothing, that as of necessity thy good deed may not be, but of willingness, (YLT)

but I have wished to do nothing without thy mind, that thy good might not be as of necessity but of willingness: (DBY)

But without thy mind I would do nothing; that thy benefit should not be as it were of necessity, but willingly. (WEB)

sine consilio autem tuo nihil volui facere uti ne velut ex necessitate bonum tuum esset sed voluntarium (VUL)


So why didn't you quote any of THESE Bibles, Tom?

"εκούσιας" doesn't mean "free will" in the sense you want to project onto the term.
It simply means "voluntarily", "willingly", "without force", "without coercion".

Again those are all synonyms of free will as shown above

but Are you saying

the Nasb77, Nasb95, RSV,ASV, CSB were/are not mainstream translations

If you recall the list was developed because you denied I could produce 20 translation that read free will

you lost that argument as well
 

Sketo

Well-known member
The topic is free will

Yep and the reference point matters
0:03:22 Properly defining "freewill"

so is it your view man has a free will (limited) but you don't believe it extends to salvation

No mention of “God” as the reference point for “freedom” here therefore you must be referring to simply “doing what you want”…

02:11:53 If "freedom" = doing what you "want"

If not you need to deal with all the scripture verses which speak of it

None of your “verses” speak of “freedom” from God so who cares?

Being coerced or forced is the opposite of freely acting by ones own will

So your reference point, for “freedom”, is not God but simply doing what you “want”?

Like I said it depends on your reference point!

01:05:05 "Forced" assumption addressed
and
02:11:53 If "freedom" = doing what you "want"


Lol voluntary is a synonym of free will

You have already established, above, that your reference point, for “free”, is moved off of God and on to what you “want” without “force” and no one cares about this reference point anymore. You are no longer “proving” anything that matters.

You have to deal with…


0:03:22 Properly defining "freewill"
and
01:05:05 "Forced" assumption addressed
and
02:11:53 If "freedom" = doing what you "want"
 
Last edited:

Sketo

Well-known member
Do you imagine you can overturn scripture with a video

What happened to sola scriptura

Have you abandoned it to save your theology

(ARV 2005) but without thy mind I would do nothing, that thy goodness should not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(ASV-2014) but without thy mind I would do nothing; that thy goodness should not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(Anderson) but, without your consent, I was not willing to do any thing, that your good deed might not be as a matter of necessity, but one of free-will.
(ASV) but without thy mind I would do nothing; that thy goodness should not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(FAA) but I did not want to do anything without your opinion, so that your good deed would not be as it were under compulsion, but of free will.
(GDBY_NT) but without your consent I did not wish to do anything; in order that your good might not be by constraint, but by the free will:
(GW) Yet, I didn't want to do anything without your consent. I want you to do this favor for me out of your own free will without feeling forced to do it.
(csb) But I didn't want to do anything without your consent, so that your good deed might not be out of obligation, but of your own free will.
(LEB) But apart from your consent, I wanted to do nothing, in order that your good deed might be not as according to necessity, but according to your own free will.
(MRC) but without your consent I did not want to do anything, that your goodness might not be by necessity, but of your own free will.
(MNT) But without your consent I was unwilling to do anything, so that your kindness to me might be of your own free will, and not of compulsion.
(NTVR) but without thy mind I would do nothing; that thy goodness should not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(Revised Standard ) but I preferred to do nothing without your consent in order that your goodness might not be by compulsion but of your own free will.
(RNT) but without your consent I am unwilling to do anything, so that your goodness may not be of necessity but of free will.
(RSV-CE) but I preferred to do nothing without your consent in order that your goodness might not be by compulsion but of your own free will.
(TLV) But I didn’t want to do anything without your consent, so that your goodness wouldn’t be by force but by free will.
(WEB) But I was willing to do nothing without your consent, that your goodness would not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(WEB (R)) But I was willing to do nothing without your consent, that your goodness would not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(Wuest's) Georgia;;14-16 But I came to a decision in my heart to do nothing without your consent, in order that your goodness might not be as it were by compulsion but of your own free will. For perhaps on this account he was parted for a brief time in order that you might be possessing him fully and forever, no longer in the capacity of a slave, but above a slave, a brother , a beloved one, beloved most of all by me, how much more than that by you, both in his human relationship and in the Lord.
(NASB77) 14 but without your consent I did not want to do anything, that your goodness should not be as it were by compulsion, but of your own free will.
(NASB95) 14 but without your consent I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will.
(TEV) 14 However, I do not want to force you to help me; rather, I would like for you to do it of your own free will. So I will not do anything unless you agree.
(ERV) 14 but without thy mind I would do nothing; that thy goodness should not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(NHEB) 14 But I was willing to do nothing without your consent, that your goodness would not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(TCE) 14 but without your consent I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will.
and you can add both the NEB and the REB
CT 14 but I would not do any thing without thy consent, that the benefit derived from thee might not be as it were forced, but of free will.
NENT 14 but without thy: mind I wished to do nothing; that thy: goodness be not as of necessity, but of free will.
SLT 14 But without thy judgment I would do nothing; that good might not be as according to necessity, but according to free will.
(NEB) 14 But I would rather do nothing without your consent, so that your kindness may be a matter not of compulsion, but of your own free will.
(REB) 14 But I would rather do nothing without your consent, so that your kindness may be a matter not of compulsion, but of your own free will.

You don’t get it yet Tom but none of these “free will” references are referring to “freedom” from God… they don’t prove anything anymore.

You posting any verse , or translation, with the phrase “free will” in it simply proves that your reference point for “free” is not God but simply pointing to doing what you want and this reference point does not matter any more! Both sides agree that we are doing what we “want” therefore your argument is pointless!

0:03:22 Properly defining "freewill"
and
01:05:05 "Forced" assumption addressed
and
02:11:53 If "freedom" = doing what you "want"
 

SovereignGrace

Well-known member
You don’t get it yet Tom but none of these “free will” references are referring to “freedom” from God… they don’t prove anything anymore.

You posting any verse , or translation, with the phrase “free will” in it simply proves that your reference point for “free” is not God but simply pointing to doing what you want and this reference point does not matter any more! Both sides agree that we are doing what we “want” therefore your argument is pointless!

0:03:22 Properly defining "freewill"
and
01:05:05 "Forced" assumption addressed
and
02:11:53 If "freedom" = doing what you "want"
If the words “free” & “will” show up in the same chapter, even if several vss apart, he will post it as “proof” of the validity of freewill.
 

Sketo

Well-known member
If the words “free” & “will” show up in the same chapter, even if several vss apart, he will post it as “proof” of the validity of freewill.
Yes and we all believe we are doing what we want so his argument is meaningless!

I’m sure he will blow a gasket if he ever watches the section on “Choice” examined…


01:16:46 "CHOICE" critically examined
01:21:00 God's "choice" different from man's "choice"
01:22:35 "choice" IN Finite Realm examined
01:27:13 "choice IN Infinite Realm examined
01:30:42 self-determinism IN finite realm = circular reasoning
01:32:06 "reason for choice" = Determinism
01:33:56 Different Circumstances Examined
01:35:45 "God has freewill so I can too" examined (common argument of Tom)
01:39:22 God's choice BEFORE time and IN time
01:43:18 ⭐️"Choice according to your GREATEST desire"
01:45:19 Can "desires" change... tomorrow?
01:46:50 "Ability to choose among competing desires" examined
01:52:05 Choice thought experiment
01:54:55 "ability to do otherwise" examined
02:04:31 ⭐️"freewill" equivalent to illusion, magic trick, luck
 
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