Free Will Meticulously Examined… and Refuted!

T

TomFL

Guest
I never said uh-uh and I answered your post. You ignored it and simply repeat the same dumb post.

You also refuse to answer my questions if your understanding is correct. God is preventing some from salvation. We are told He desires the salvation of yet prevents it. Thats some God You believe in. It's not the God of the Bible
Nope you did not answer . You simply denied the premise which is an uh-uh

you never answered the questions

John 12:40 (ESV)
40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, Lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.”

what does the highlighted clause mean ?

No answer

The word lest ?

Obviously not dealt with either

lest
[lest]

CONJUNCTION
formal

  1. with the intention of preventing (something undesirable); to avoid the risk of.
    "he spent whole days in his room, headphones on lest he disturb anyone"
    • (after a clause indicating fear) because of the possibility of something undesirable happening; in case.
stop diverting and deal with the verse


What was God preventing according to the verse

No answer

Why would God blind those who could not see because they were born blind according to Calvinist theology ?

again no answer

you are running
 

Reformedguy

Well-known member
Nope you did not answer . You simply denied the premise which is an uh-uh

you never answered the questions

John 12:40 (ESV)
40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, Lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.”

what does the highlighted clause mean ?

No answer

The word lest ?

Obviously not dealt with either

lest
[lest]

CONJUNCTION
formal

  1. with the intention of preventing (something undesirable); to avoid the risk of.
    "he spent whole days in his room, headphones on lest he disturb anyone"
    • (after a clause indicating fear) because of the possibility of something undesirable happening; in case.
stop diverting and deal with the verse


What was God preventing according to the verse

No answer

Why would God blind those who could not see because they were born blind according to Calvinist theology ?

again no answer

you are running
Answered already with Old Testament references which you ignored. 🥱
 
T

TomFL

Guest
Answered already with Old Testament references which you ignored. 🥱
Fabrication

this is nonsense
That is you presuming again. A prophecy fulllfilled of Isa. 6 9 and 10. Its very similar to God hardening Pharoahs heart yet it says Pharoahs hardened his heart

It does not address these question

John 12:40 (ESV)
40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, Lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.”

what does the highlighted cause mean ?

No answer

The word lest ?

Obviously not dealt with either

lest
[lest]

CONJUNCTION
formal

  1. with the intention of preventing (something undesirable); to avoid the risk of.
    "he spent whole days in his room, headphones on lest he disturb anyone"
    • (after a clause indicating fear) because of the possibility of something undesirable happening; in case.
stop diverting and deal with the verse


What was God preventing according to the verse

Why would God blind those who could not see because they were born blind according to Calvinist theology ?

again no answer

BTW them hardening their heart is just as much a problem for your theology

Acts 28:27 —KJV
“For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.”

their heart grew gross over time not a condition from birth and had it not grown gross

lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.”

either way you lose
 

Reformedguy

Well-known member
Fabrication

this is nonsense


It does not address these question

John 12:40 (ESV)
40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, Lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.”

what does the highlighted cause mean ?

No answer

The word lest ?

Obviously not dealt with either

lest
[lest]

CONJUNCTION
formal

  1. with the intention of preventing (something undesirable); to avoid the risk of.
    "he spent whole days in his room, headphones on lest he disturb anyone"
    • (after a clause indicating fear) because of the possibility of something undesirable happening; in case.
stop diverting and deal with the verse


What was God preventing according to the verse

Why would God blind those who could not see because they were born blind according to Calvinist theology ?

again no answer

BTW them hardening their heart is just as much a problem for your theology

Acts 28:27 —KJV
“For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.”

their heart grew gross over time not a condition from birth and had it not grown gross

lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.”

either way you lose
Yet it says God hardened Pharaohs and latter it says Pharoah hardened his heart? Can they both be true?

Who is Acts 28:27 referring to?
 
T

TomFL

Guest
Yet it says God hardened Pharaohs and latter it says Pharoah hardened his heart? Can they both be true?

Who is Acts 28:27 referring to?
Stop diverting and actually address the issue

John 12:40 (ESV)
40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, Lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.”

what does the highlighted clause mean ?

No answer

The word lest ?

Obviously not dealt with either

lest
[lest]

CONJUNCTION
formal


  1. with the intention of preventing (something undesirable); to avoid the risk of.
    "he spent whole days in his room, headphones on lest he disturb anyone"
    • (after a clause indicating fear) because of the possibility of something undesirable happening; in case.
stop diverting and deal with the verse


What was God preventing according to the verse

Why would God blind those who could not see because they were born blind according to Calvinist theology ?

again no answer

BTW them hardening their heart is just as much a problem for your theology

Acts 28:27 —KJV
“For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.”

their heart grew gross over time not a condition from birth and had it not grown gross

lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.”

either way you lose

stop diverting and address the issue which is not Pharaoh
 

Slyzr

Well-known member


Timestamp Outline for Your convenience!
1.5x Speed recommended. ⚙️

00:00:00 Intro
0:03:22 Properly defining "freewill"
0:06:36 Foundational verses
00:11:40 Addressing Deiesm heresy
00:15:38 Determinism established
00:20:11 …Visual example
00:25:06 Practical applications
00:30:08 Foundation necessary Eph 1:11
00:32:28 Misconceptions (semi-Deism)
00:36:21 Misunderstanding (God's involvement in creation)
00:41:54 Transcendent Author explained
00:45:07 God not just Author
00:47:11 Foundation question
00:52:12 Omni-atributes addressed
00:55:24 "Omnipotence" specifically
00:58:29 God can not "give" freedom
01:05:05 "Forced" assumption addressed
01:11:11 Meticulous Control or Duelism
01:13:00 Direct and Indirect causes addressed
01:16:46 "CHOICE" critically examined
01:21:00 God's "choice" different from man's "choice"
01:22:35 "choice" IN Finite Realm examined
01:27:13 "choice IN Infinite Realm examined
01:30:42 self-determinism IN finite realm = circular
01:32:06 "reason for choice" = Determinism
01:33:56 Different Circumstances Examined
01:35:45 "God has freewill so I can too" examined
01:39:22 God's choice BEFORE time and IN time
01:43:18 "Choice according to your GREATEST desire"
01:45:19 Can "desires" change... tomorrow?
01:46:50 "Ability to choose among competing desires" examined
01:52:05 Choice thought experiment
01:54:55 "ability to do otherwise" examined
02:04:31 "freewill" equivalent to illusion, magic trick, luck
02:11:53 If "freedom" = doing what you "want"
02:13:11 Believing "freewill" is not stupid
02:17:23 "freewill" assumed without foundation
02:20:37 PROBLEM OF EVIL
02:24:21 what is "evil"/"sin"?
02:26:52 what does "God can not sin" mean?
02:29:30 is God "responsible" for sin?
02:34:43 God the "Author" of sin addressed
02:37:11 emotional arguments addressed
02:40:21 "freewill" cant answer for "evil"
02:42:13 God "gave" freewill examined
02:47:07 "God allows/permits evil" examined
02:50:02 FAIRNESS examined
02:52:30 if God has the power to stop sin examined
02:53:08 RESPONSABILITY turned around
03:00:08 humanistic examples dont apply to God

03:04:16 QUESTIONS FOR FREEWILLERS
3:11:42 QUESTION 1 (If God knows, that by creating you, you will end up in hell, how is he not determined you to end up in hell by creating you?)
3:13:54 obj¹ ▶️“just because God foreknows does not mean he determined it” can not apply to God
3:19:29 obj² metaphysical disconnect argument
3:23:38 obj3 “God can foreknow independent from creating you” examined

3:25:53 QUESTION 1.1 (Why would God create anybody that He 100% knows will end up in hell?)
3:27:05 obj¹ difference between what God commands and what God “wants” to com to pass
3:27:48 example Christ Crucified
3:30:22 example Pharaoh
3:31:15 example joseph

03:32:44 QUESTION 2 (Could God have created [those he knew would end in hell] differently?)
03:35:24 QUESTION 2.5 (If God could… why didn’t He?)

03:38:52 “chooser of your own choices" second-layer fallacy examined
03:42:34 God as Divine Author Chapter/Verse
03:45:04 freewill makes God a "robot"
03:49:10 Molanism "God must deal with the hand dealt" addressed
03:51:36 Calvinism is the only system where God is "free"
03:54:06 ▶️"freewill" can not answer for Adam's fall

03:56:20 QUESTION 3 (If freewill is true why has there never been a sinless human?)
03:57:20 “freewill is necessary for true relationship” examined and refuted
04:00:58 only determinism can answer why no sinless humans?

04:02:15 QUESTION 4 (How does “eternal security” fit in a freewill system?)

04:04:00 QUESTION 5 (How can is be said “God is sending the Gospel” if it is up to the “freewill” of man?/ Who gets credit?)
04:05:44 QUESTION 5.5 (Why does God "send" the Gospel to those he knows will reject it?)

04:08:33 QUESTION 6 (Do you exist because of God’s “choice” or your parent’s “freewill choice”?)

04:12:28 QUESTION 7 (Why do “freewill” proponents say “Lord willing"? James 4:15)

04:15:12 QUESTION 8 (If freewill is true why "pray"?)

04:18:28 QUESTION 9 (How is it “fair” that God chooses when, where, and how to make you?)

04:20:44 QUESTION 1.2 (Questioning Melanism in light of “fairness”)

04:23:24 QUESTION 10 (Which view actually presents God as “bigger/better”?) [Leighton’s “chessboard analogy”]
04:26:31 QUESTION 10.1 (Can God be “bigger” by choosing to “limit” his knowledge to allow for freewill?)
04:29:18 QUESTION 10.2 (How is God being in control of all things a “lesser view”?)

04:32:35 ⭐️QUESTION 11 (Can God determine that you do what you “WANT” to do, and it also be what He “WANTS” you to do?)
04:37:48 ⭐️QUESTION 11 reiterated (Can God determine that you do what He “WANTS” you to do, and it also be what you “WANT” to do?
04:40:00 ⭐️⭐️QUESTION 11 If you answer yes this is why you lose the debate.

04:46:30 Conclusion

The Consistent Calvinism Podcast

Death propagation.

No one can matter ..... no one can ever be.

And they call it LOVE.
 
T

TomFL

Guest
Stop diverting and actually address the issue

John 12:40 (ESV)
40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, Lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.”

what does the highlighted clause mean ?

No answer

The word lest ?

Obviously not dealt with either

lest
[lest]

CONJUNCTION
formal


  1. with the intention of preventing (something undesirable); to avoid the risk of.
    "he spent whole days in his room, headphones on lest he disturb anyone"
    • (after a clause indicating fear) because of the possibility of something undesirable happening; in case.
stop diverting and deal with the verse


What was God preventing according to the verse

Why would God blind those who could not see because they were born blind according to Calvinist theology ?

again no answer

BTW them hardening their heart is just as much a problem for your theology

Acts 28:27 —KJV
“For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.”

their heart grew gross over time not a condition from birth and had it not grown gross

lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.”

either way you lose

stop diverting and address the issue which is not Pharaoh
bump
 

Sketo

Well-known member
Understanding the distinction between Transcendent and Storyline Levels in the Bible is key to understanding many verses. Lights went on everywhere once I realized this distinction…

 

His clay

Active member
Understanding the distinction between Transcendent and Storyline Levels in the Bible is key to understanding many verses. Lights went on everywhere once I realized this distinction…

That is largely my view. The non-C answer is to strongly advocate a causal break. The C answer is to advocate a transcendent break differentiating between different types of causality.
 
T

TomFL

Guest
Stop diverting and actually address the issue

John 12:40 (ESV)
40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, Lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.”

what does the highlighted clause mean ?

No answer

The word lest ?

Obviously not dealt with either

lest
[lest]

CONJUNCTION
formal


  1. with the intention of preventing (something undesirable); to avoid the risk of.
    "he spent whole days in his room, headphones on lest he disturb anyone"
    • (after a clause indicating fear) because of the possibility of something undesirable happening; in case.
stop diverting and deal with the verse


What was God preventing according to the verse

Why would God blind those who could not see because they were born blind according to Calvinist theology ?

again no answer

BTW them hardening their heart is just as much a problem for your theology

Acts 28:27 —KJV
“For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.”

their heart grew gross over time not a condition from birth and had it not grown gross

lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.”

either way you lose

stop diverting and address the issue which is not Pharaoh
Still not addressed
 

Sketo

Well-known member
Yet it says God hardened Pharaohs and latter it says Pharoah hardened his heart? Can they both be true?

Exodus 9:33-10:1 is the Justification for “both being true”…

Storyline Level view
Transcendent Level view

So Moses went out of the city from Pharaoh and stretched out his hands to the LORD, and the thunder and the hail ceased, and the rain no longer poured upon the earth. But when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunder had ceased, he sinned yet again and hardened his heart, he and his servants. So the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, and he did not let the people of Israel go, just as the LORD had spoken through Moses.Then the LORD said to Moses, “Go in to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the heart of his servants, that I may show these signs of mine among them,

Pharaoh hardened his heart over and over again because God hardened his heart over and over again.
 
Last edited:

fltom

Active member
Acts 2 the DAY of Pentecost not addressed.

next
Again the issue I spoke of was the pouring out of the Spirit and the charimata which followed it

This was shown to have occurred multiple times

Pentecost was the first time but not the last

Acts 10:44-47 (KJV)
44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

There is no need to address Pentecost beyond that to sustain my point
 
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