Free Will Meticulously Examined… and Refuted!

Theo1689 said:
How do you know the video is "only opinion"?
How do you know the video doesn't have compelling supporting evidence?
Click to expand...
Because not one of you guys have posted a single argument from the video

So it is only your opinion that it speaks truthi




Theo1689 said:
You see, here's the problem...
If you watch the video, you may actually LEARN something. You may learn that you're wrong, or you may learn that there are other arguments that you need to address.
Click to expand...
And if you guys actually present an argument

I will address it

and maybe you will learn something

but Go watch a video is not scriptural argumentation

So if you have a scriptural argument make it

otherwise you have nothing
 
Sketo said:


Timestamp Outline for Your convenience!
1.5x Speed recommended. ⚙️

00:00:00 Intro
0:03:22 Properly defining "freewill"
0:06:36 Foundational verses
00:11:40 Addressing Deiesm heresy
00:15:38 Determinism established
00:20:11 …Visual example
00:25:06 Practical applications
00:30:08 Foundation necessary Eph 1:11
00:32:28 Misconceptions (semi-Deism)
00:36:21 Misunderstanding (God's involvement in creation)
00:41:54 Transcendent Author explained
00:45:07 God not just Author
00:47:11 Foundation question
00:52:12 Omni-atributes addressed
00:55:24 "Omnipotence" specifically
00:58:29 God can not "give" freedom
01:05:05 "Forced" assumption addressed
01:11:11 Meticulous Control or Duelism
01:13:00 Direct and Indirect causes addressed
01:16:46 "CHOICE" critically examined
01:21:00 God's "choice" different from man's "choice"
01:22:35 "choice" IN Finite Realm examined
01:27:13 "choice IN Infinite Realm examined
01:30:42 self-determinism IN finite realm = circular
01:32:06 "reason for choice" = Determinism
01:33:56 Different Circumstances Examined
01:35:45 "God has freewill so I can too" examined
01:39:22 God's choice BEFORE time and IN time
01:43:18 "Choice according to your GREATEST desire"
01:45:19 Can "desires" change... tomorrow?
01:46:50 "Ability to choose among competing desires" examined
01:52:05 Choice thought experiment
01:54:55 "ability to do otherwise" examined
02:04:31 "freewill" equivalent to illusion, magic trick, luck
02:11:53 If "freedom" = doing what you "want"
02:13:11 Believing "freewill" is not stupid
02:17:23 "freewill" assumed without foundation
02:20:37 PROBLEM OF EVIL
02:24:21 what is "evil"/"sin"?
02:26:52 what does "God can not sin" mean?
02:29:30 is God "responsible" for sin?
02:34:43 God the "Author" of sin addressed
02:37:11 emotional arguments addressed
02:40:21 "freewill" cant answer for "evil"
02:42:13 God "gave" freewill examined
02:47:07 "God allows/permits evil" examined
02:50:02 FAIRNESS examined
02:52:30 if God has the power to stop sin examined
02:53:08 RESPONSABILITY turned around
03:00:08 humanistic examples dont apply to God

03:04:16 QUESTIONS FOR FREEWILLERS
3:11:42 QUESTION 1 (If God knows, that by creating you, you will end up in hell, how is he not determined you to end up in hell by creating you?)
3:13:54 obj¹ ▶️“just because God foreknows does not mean he determined it” can not apply to God
3:19:29 obj² metaphysical disconnect argument
3:23:38 obj3 “God can foreknow independent from creating you” examined

3:25:53 QUESTION 1.1 (Why would God create anybody that He 100% knows will end up in hell?)
3:27:05 obj¹ difference between what God commands and what God “wants” to com to pass
3:27:48 example Christ Crucified
3:30:22 example Pharaoh
3:31:15 example joseph

03:32:44 QUESTION 2 (Could God have created [those he knew would end in hell] differently?)
03:35:24 QUESTION 2.5 (If God could… why didn’t He?)

03:38:52 “chooser of your own choices" second-layer fallacy examined
03:42:34 God as Divine Author Chapter/Verse
03:45:04 freewill makes God a "robot"
03:49:10 Molanism "God must deal with the hand dealt" addressed
03:51:36 Calvinism is the only system where God is "free"
03:54:06 ▶️"freewill" can not answer for Adam's fall

03:56:20 QUESTION 3 (If freewill is true why has there never been a sinless human?)
03:57:20 “freewill is necessary for true relationship” examined and refuted
04:00:58 only determinism can answer why no sinless humans?

04:02:15 QUESTION 4 (How does “eternal security” fit in a freewill system?)

04:04:00 QUESTION 5 (How can is be said “God is sending the Gospel” if it is up to the “freewill” of man?/ Who gets credit?)
04:05:44 QUESTION 5.5 (Why does God "send" the Gospel to those he knows will reject it?)

04:08:33 QUESTION 6 (Do you exist because of God’s “choice” or your parent’s “freewill choice”?)

04:12:28 QUESTION 7 (Why do “freewill” proponents say “Lord willing"? James 4:15)

04:15:12 QUESTION 8 (If freewill is true why "pray"?)

04:18:28 QUESTION 9 (How is it “fair” that God chooses when, where, and how to make you?)

04:20:44 QUESTION 1.2 (Questioning Melanism in light of “fairness”)

04:23:24 QUESTION 10 (Which view actually presents God as “bigger/better”?) [Leighton’s “chessboard analogy”]
04:26:31 QUESTION 10.1 (Can God be “bigger” by choosing to “limit” his knowledge to allow for freewill?)
04:29:18 QUESTION 10.2 (How is God being in control of all things a “lesser view”?)

04:32:35 ⭐️QUESTION 11 (Can God determine that you do what you “WANT” to do, and it also be what He “WANTS” you to do?)
04:37:48 ⭐️QUESTION 11 reiterated (Can God determine that you do what He “WANTS” you to do, and it also be what you “WANT” to do?
04:40:00 ⭐️⭐️QUESTION 11 If you answer yes this is why you lose the debate.

04:46:30 Conclusion

The Consistent Calvinism Podcast
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Just how "free" is your will ? Did you will your sex? Your parents? Your place of birth? Our lives are shaped by the "choices" God made for us before we were born .
If you fall off a building,can you will your self back up? If you get cancer can you will it to go away?

You can not choose to wear brown shoes if all that is in your closet are black..
 
Theo1689 said:
How do you know the video is "only opinion"?
How do you know the video doesn't have compelling supporting evidence?

You see, here's the problem...
If you watch the video, you may actually LEARN something. You may learn that you're wrong, or you may learn that there are other arguments that you need to address.

But if you don't watch the video, you don't learn anything. You simply remain stagnant, and you don't grow. But again, the "positive" is that you avoid learning something which might prove you wrong.



If you're not going to watch a video, why would anyone think you would bother to read posts which contain those same arguments? And it might very well be that the video is the better medium for providing visual evidence.

I think part of it is that you don't actually want to learn anything, you only want to ARGUE with people. That's what you live for, ARGUING.

But you can't argue with a video.
And you can't argue with a book.
Because they don't respond back.

So you only want to engage with people whom you can argue with, because you only live to argue.
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This is a guy who salivate listening to choice meats and assume everything that dingbat says is the gospel truth. This video though? Because he disagrees with it, it's merely the producers opinion and is to be dismissed. So sophomoric.
 
Reformedguy said:
This is a guy who salivate listening to choice meats and assume everything that dingbat says is the gospel truth. This video though? Because he disagrees with it, it's merely the producers opinion and is to be dismissed. So sophomoric.
Click to expand...
Duh if you think its arguments valid produce them here and I will address them

So far neither you or any other extoller of this video has done so

Go see a video is not a biblical argument

and claiming it as a refutation without producing a single argument to be discussed is indeed only the opinion of those extolling it

So step up if you can
 
TomFL said:
Duh if you think its arguments valid produce them here and I will address them

So far neither you or any other extoller of this video has done so

Go see a video is not a biblical argument

and claiming it as a refutation without producing a single argument to be discussed is indeed only the opinion of those extolling it

So step up if you can
Click to expand...
You do not address anything. Your a parrot. So I can and will step up when something of substance is offered. Do you know of anyone capable? One of your kids perhaps?
 
Reformedguy said:
You do not address anything. Your a parrot. So I can and will step up when something of substance is offered. Do you know of anyone capable? One of your kids perhaps?
Click to expand...
You are funny

You offered nothing at all to be addressed

I told you if you believe the the arguments of the video valid post them and I will address them

But you produced nothing at all

which is rather typical

Questions and rhetoric are all you are able to offer
 
TomFL said:
You are funny

You offered nothing at all to be addressed

I told you if you believe the the arguments of the video valid post them and I will address them

But you produced nothing at all

which is rather typical

Questions and rhetoric are all you are able to offer
Click to expand...
When your dealing with a child that's pretty much all you need.
 
Sketo said:
Click to expand...

You need to get out of youtube videos and get into the bible

Your theology of meticulous divine determination is an assault on the love, holiness and justice of God

In the bible God says He loves Israel, Asks them why they should die as he takes no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies , Asks why should you be stricken any more, Presents himself as a betrayed husband, Jesus weeps over Jerusalem , says he longs to gather them, states he came to save world but according to your theology their disobedience and rejection of God and Christ was determined by God before the foundation of the world along with the damnation of the majority of them
 
Reformedguy said:
When your dealing with a child that's pretty much all you need.
Click to expand...

As expected you were not up to the task of presenting a biblical argument and offer only insults

Sorry but it is no cover for your inability
 
TomFL said:
You need to get out of youtube videos and get into the bible

Your theology of meticulous divine determination is an assault on the love, holiness and justice of God

In the bible God says He loves Israel, Asks them why they should die as he takes no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies , Asks why should you be stricken any more, Presents himself as a betrayed husband, Jesus weeps over Jerusalem , says he longs to gather them, states he came to save world but according to your theology their disobedience and rejection of God and Christ was determined by God before the foundation of the world along with the damnation of the majority of them
Click to expand...

On Provisionism God creates someone knowing with certainty they will end up in hell, and it wasn’t up to the person whether or not to be created. That sounds terrible and unfair but not even “freewill” can change this reality that ALL Bible believing Christians must deal with.

Feel good-ism vs cold, hard unavoidable logical facts. Your position can’t escape the logical fact of people being “doomed from the womb for certain destruction.” Weather or not “god provides for all” doesn’t change this.

In your view, can you explain how it makes any sense to say God “loves” the people He creates knowing they will never accept Him and are doomed for destruction? Wouldn’t it be more “loving” to just not create them?

The unbiblical view of Open Theism is the only view that can avoide this truth of scripture!

The only difference between you and Calvinists is we man up and tell it like it is.
 
Sketo said:
On Provisionism God creates someone knowing with certainty they will end up in hell, and it wasn’t up to the person whether or not to be created. That sounds terrible and unfair but not even “freewill” can change this reality that ALL Bible believing Christians must deal with.

Feel good-ism vs cold, hard unavoidable logical facts. Your position can’t escape the logical fact of people being “doomed from the womb for certain destruction.” Weather or not “god provides for all” doesn’t change this.

In your view, can you explain how it makes any sense to say God “loves” the people He creates knowing they will never accept Him and are doomed for destruction? Wouldn’t it be more “loving” to just not create them?

The unbiblical view of Open Theism is the only view that can avoide this truth of scripture!

The only difference between you and Calvinists is we man up and tell it like it is.
Click to expand...

You did nothing at all to rescue your view from its assault on the love, holiness and justice of God

As I noted last post You need to get out of youtube videos and get into the bible

Your theology of meticulous divine determination is an assault on the love, holiness and justice of God

In the bible God says He loves Israel, Asks them why they should die as he takes no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies , Asks why should you be stricken any more, Presents himself as a betrayed husband, Jesus weeps over Jerusalem , says he longs to gather them, states he came to save world but according to your theology their disobedience and rejection of God and Christ was determined by God before the foundation of the world along with the damnation of the majority of them

At the very least it makes God disingenuous and is a terrible slur on his holy nature

and of course the idea God has unalterably determined all the sin of the world is contrary to scripture

James 1:13–15 (KJV 1900)
13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

1 Corinthians 10:13 (KJV 1900)
13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

1 John 2:16 (KJV 1900)
16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.


And though you spoke of cold hard facts you ignored the facts I posted

and you really have no facts at all which state God has determined all the sinful thoughts, desires and deeds of the world

and as for open theism we have already seen I affirm God knows everything even that he had not determined while you on the hand have denied he could know what he has not determined

So if anyone lends support to open theism it would be you as we saw in previous posts

BTW your you too defense is rather absurd

There is no equality between providing a free though foreknown choice and actually determining to unalterably damn someone apart from anything they had done while claiming to love them and desiring their salvation

Again it is an assault on the character of God
 
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Reformedguy said:
Now your going to play dumb? Why don't you try something different
Click to expand...
Er it is you playing dumb

asking

"Biblical arguements as it pertains to what specifically?"

What's the topic of the thread ?

Where are the arguments from the video you were challenged to produce ?

You produced nothing
 
Theo1689 said:
That's like saying, "You need to get off of computer discussion forums and get into the bible."

Or maybe, just maybe.... JUST maybe...

MAYBE ....

Maybe, the YouTube video CONTAINS teaching of Bible passages?
Click to expand...
And maybe there is a reason none of your peers are posting the arguments they imagine to be refutations

BTW A computer discussion forum allows for a full orbed discussion of the scriptures

A video which none of your peers are willing to put into writing accomplishes nothing at all
 
Theo1689 said:
That's like saying, "You need to get off of computer discussion forums and get into the bible."

Or maybe, just maybe.... JUST maybe...

MAYBE ....

Maybe, the YouTube video CONTAINS teaching of Bible passages?
Click to expand...
And maybe there is a reason none of your peers are posting the arguments they claim to be refutations

BTW A computer discussion forum allows for a full orbed discussion of the scriptures

A video which none of your peers are willing to put into writing or discuss accomplishes nothing at all except perhaps to feed a confirmation bias

This however remains to be answered

In the bible God says He loves Israel, Asks them why they should die as he takes no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies , Asks why should you be stricken any more, Presents himself as a betrayed husband, Jesus weeps over Jerusalem , says he longs to gather them, states he came to save world but according to your theology their disobedience and rejection of God and Christ was determined by God before the foundation of the world along with the damnation of the majority of them

At the very least it makes God disingenuous and is a terrible slur on his holy nature

and of course the idea God has unalterably determined all the sin of the world is contrary to scripture

James 1:13–15 (KJV 1900)
13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

1 Corinthians 10:13 (KJV 1900)
13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

1 John 2:16 (KJV 1900)
16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
 
Sketo said:
On Provisionism God creates someone knowing with certainty they will end up in hell, and it wasn’t up to the person whether or not to be created.
Click to expand...
But you're missing the point. It still wasn't God's will for them for them to make wrong choices to end up there.
Sketo said:
That sounds terrible and unfair but not even “freewill” can change this reality that ALL Bible believing Christians must deal with.
Click to expand...
It seems Calvinists make this about every extreme thing they can imagine what free will must mean but it's not important to prove mankind has "free will" in however extreme way one wants to define it. Some would ask can someone forbid to go to hell if God says they're going there. All say NO thus mankind does not have free will! But advocating free will when it comes to one choosing LIFE is a freedom God HAS PROVIDED.

A parent may give their child the freedom to stay out till 9:00 pm. They have the free will choice to do that and no one can argue that they don't. Do they have the free will choice to stay out till 10? No. But they still had freewill as defined by what they were allowed.
 
TomFL said:
Er it is you playing dumb

asking

"Biblical arguements as it pertains to what specifically?"

What's the topic of the thread ?

Where are the arguments from the video you were challenged to produce ?

You produced nothing
Click to expand...
Its not my video. I could care less. Talk to the producer. He can dumb it down for you
 
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