Free Will Meticulously Examined… and Refuted!

civic

Well-known member
Does God make you sin every time you sin?

Does the devil make you sin every time you sin?

Who is left?

You.

But we have people on here claiming that saying the devil made me sin is wrong, and claiming God made me sin is wrong, yet claiming I have any real free will is wrong.

And they don't even see their own inconsistency and how they constantly contradict themselves, then make up false accusations of misrepresentation like the devil.

Strongholds.
That is my argument in my OP sherlock with the Flip Wilson video.

Now all of a sudden you agree with me when in your thread you mocked me ?

You have stooped to siths level how pathetic.
 

civic

Well-known member
@Dizerner asks this question.

when is it time to move on..​


now is as good of time as any......................................

as they say if you cannot stand the heat get our of the kitchen. This forum is not for the thinned skin nor the weak in heart.
 

Rockson

Active member
But there is more than a factor of love here, because why do the consequences for rejection/sin necessarily have to be so severe?
I lean towards believing the traditional view of Hell but it should be noted that many have different thoughts on what Hell is and it's duration and they feel they've got scripture to back up their views. But let's go with the traditional view....why so servere. I'd say yes because God is LOVE, love will send out the strongest message possible to stay out of spiritual death. If he didn't he wouldn't have done what LOVE should do to ensure the message is clear, don't degeneate the creation with sin.
For this I think we need the explanation of holiness, and not love.
Scripture says though that God is LOVE. He doesn't have LOVE he is LOVE. 1 Jn 4:7 . Even judgments of God are a part of his mercy (a manifestation of LOVE) for one can read in the Psalms of judgements he carried out and one reads this seemingly unusual statement with it. For his mercy endures forever! Or his LOVE. Judgement is a manifestation of LOVE after God has waited and has been patient with longsuffering because he is good he cannot allow evil to continue forever. (See below) Ps 136

10 To Him who struck Egypt in their firstborn, For His mercy endures forever 11 And brought out Israel from among them,
For His mercy endures forever;12 With a strong hand, and with [a]an outstretched arm, For His mercy endures forever;
13 To Him who divided the Red Sea in two, For His mercy endures forever;14 And made Israel pass through the midst of it,
For His mercy endures forever;15 But overthrew Pharaoh and his army in the Red Sea, For His mercy endures forever;
16 To Him who led His people through the wilderness, For His mercy endures forever;17 To Him who struck down great kings,
For His mercy endures forever;18 And slew famous kings ,For His mercy endures forever19 Sihon king of the Amorites,
For His mercy endures forever;20 And Og king of Bashan, For His mercy endures forever— Psalm 136


I did qualify with "in a sense," the sense he could have prevented the possibility.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Scripture says though that God is LOVE. He doesn't have LOVE he is LOVE. 1 Jn 4:7 . Even judgments of God are a part of his mercy (a manifestation of LOVE) for one can read in the Psalms of judgements he carried out and one reads this seemingly unusual statement with it.

Invite me over the next time your pastor preaches a sermon on "the loving wrath of God".
 

TomFL

Well-known member
The only imagined thing here is the unjustified claim that the God that perfectly knows the future of his creation, before creation, can also be the same God that “gives” the ability, after creation, to do other than what he perfectly knew.

There is ZERO biblical foundational support for this imaginary idea but you claim it anyway!

Justify your claim…



Did God know for 100% certainty those who end up in hell, before he created them, would end up there?

If you say yes then the very act of creating them is no different then “God -saying- they’re going” there! Nothing can change this without destroying Gods knowledge before he created!

You continue confounding foreknowledge with determination and necessity

Its very different.

knowing someone will do something is not the same as making them do it
 

TomFL

Well-known member
God is not the cause of mans sin

God is not the cause of man's lust

James 1:13 (KJV 1900)
13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

1 Corinthians 10:13 (KJV 1900)
13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

1 John 2:16 (KJV 1900)
16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Jeremiah 19:5 (ESV)
5 and have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as burnt offerings to Baal, which I did not command or decree, nor did it come into my mind—
 

TomFL

Well-known member
God is still not the cause of mans lusts

God is still not the cause of man's sinful thoughts

God is still not the cause of man's sinful deeds

James 1:13–15 (KJV 1900)
13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

1 Corinthians 10:13 (KJV 1900)
13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

1 John 2:16 (KJV 1900)
16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Jeremiah 19:5 (ESV)
5 and have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as burnt offerings to Baal, which I did not command or decree, nor did it come into my mind—
 

Dizerner

Well-known member
I'll be responding to the following. "Because neither God's creation nor his foreknowledge are the causal instruments of my own destruction." I'll ask what I think should be a rhetorical questions. So God's creation of the existence of a person has no bearing upon the existence of that person in hell? Is creation not a cause? Further, since God is omniscient does His knowledge not play a factor in what He knows will infallibly entail from His causal act of creating? Does God not know what His own creative acts will necessarily entail?

To me these all flatten out to, "If God gives me responsibility then he's responsible for what I do with it!"

In some sense God does bear certain responsibilities, knowing that he is creating something with a bad potential, and knowing that that potential will be realized, and yet creating it anyway—yet if the creation has the power to instantiate or create something of its own, God's decision to create it, and God's knowledge of what it will choose, cannot logically override that the actual cause is the creatures choice. At best we could argue that God "co-chose" along with the creation to do what it does, but God's choice is qualitatively different than the creation's choice. God chose to create responsibility, the creation chose how to distribute it; those are fundamentally different things from fundamentally different positions. To pass the buck for all free will decisions up to God seems very tempting, since logic dictates the buck always stops there; but the buck becomes different as it does down the chain of command. God has a unique authority and privilege to have the moral right to create potentialities he knows will be actualized a certain way without being potentially responsible for the actualization, not because he must necessarily override the free choice by knowing what it will choose, but because he is in a position of importance enough so that his decision to create decisions does not make him culpable for the decisions he decided to make—and logically those decisions, although known by God, are not sourced in God's knowledge.

This is true because your comment seems to refuse to admit what necessarily entails from God's omniscient causal act of creating. It's like saying that a parent's knowledgeable decision to put the child in the highway has no causal bearing upon the child's destruction because the child decided to crawl in the path of the oncoming car.

And the principle of victimization was said by you to never be in objections against Calvinism. Sigh.

The logic of this is tainted with imported emotional valuations, and is painting the agent responsible for the choice as a helpless victim who cannot possibly do otherwise.

For example, Adam and Eve were not "children crawling into the path of an oncoming car," they were fully functional and capable adults making a choice they had every power and ability not to make, knowing full well they were ignoring the consequences. It was as if your child, fully understanding your warnings, turned around to you, gave you the middle finger, cursed you out, said they didn't believe you and hated you even though you never did anything wrong, and deliberately ran screaming into the traffic... now why does that give us a different feel morally?

The truth is, behind the logical objection, is a heart deceitfully wicked above all things and that doesn't know itself—according to the Bible. A heart that doesn't think free will decisions are an important enough way to value God for them to be allowed to exist in the light of the collateral damage they could cause.

Like in the case of killing fellow humans, God can do things while staying morally good, that humans cannot do. Like if I lock a rapist in my child's room we count that as a crime of indifference and reckless neglect, because of the high probability of knowing what will happen and being able to prevent it. This counts morally against me because I am held responsible to make a difference. But I am not a person of infinite worth and the source of all things—God has authority and privileges I do not, and if locking that rapist in the child's room glorifies him, the value attributed to God overrides in moral worth and significance the value of the moral wrong perpetrated. God is infinitely more valuable than his creation.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
God is still not the cause of mans lusts

God is still not the cause of man's sinful thoughts

God is still not the cause of man's sinful deeds

James 1:13–15 (KJV 1900)
13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

1 Corinthians 10:13 (KJV 1900)
13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

1 John 2:16 (KJV 1900)
16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Jeremiah 19:5 (ESV)
5 and have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as burnt offerings to Baal, which I did not command or decree, nor did it come into my mind—
What should one who holds tom sola scriptura therefore believe
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
No. God knows all

The question was not, "DOES God know all".

The question was, "HOW does God know what He foreknows?"

Why are you DODGING the question?

He does not learn from observation he knows for he is God and omniscient

"He knows for he is God and omniscient".

Being "omniscient" simply means He "knows everything".

Once again, the question was, "HOW does God know?"

Why do you keep DODGING this question?
 
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