Free Will Meticulously Examined… and Refuted!

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TomFL

Guest
Nope. You said you don't know yet your certain its not God's meticulous decree?
nope

I stated God knows all things and it is not possible to explain God.

And I noted all things are not known because of his decree as shown by the scriptures I gave and you ignored
 

Reformedguy

Well-known member
nope

I stated God knows all things and it is not possible to explain God.

And I noted all things are not known because of his decree as shown by the scriptures I gave and you ignored
It's not possible to explain God and then you proceed to do so? Lol your a hoot
 
T

TomFL

Guest
Tom. I don’t see any scripture there.
Look at the post that was being refer to

No it is not, God has not determined all things

James 1:13–14 (KJV 1900)
13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

1 Corinthians 10:13 (KJV 1900)
13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

1 John 2:16 (KJV 1900)
16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Jeremiah 19:5 (ESV)
5 and have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as burnt offerings to Baal, which I did not command or decree, nor did it come into my mind—
 

Reformedguy

Well-known member
I have to wonder what you are reading

There was no explaining God

Maybe you require a dictionary ?
"It is no possible explaining God". Tom. Lol Yet I can explain how God does not decree the the free will choices of man. That Tom can explain.
 
T

TomFL

Guest
Tom. I don’t see any scripture there.
Look at the post that was being refer to

No it is not, God has not determined all things

James 1:13–14 (KJV 1900)
13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

1 Corinthians 10:13 (KJV 1900)
13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

1 John 2:16 (KJV 1900)
16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Jeremiah 19:5 (ESV)
5 and have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as burnt offerings to Baal, which I did not command or decree, nor did it come into my mind—
"It is no possible explaining God". Tom. Lol Yet I can explain how God does not decree the the free will choices of man. That Tom can explain.
Read scripture

it is not inconsistent

One cannot explain God's omni attributes but one can read scripture and find out what He does not do

read
 

Sketo

Well-known member
One cannot explain God's omni attributes but one can read scripture and find out what He does not do

Just because TomFL cannot explain God’s Omni Attributes does not mean others can’t…

Thread 'Understanding The “HOW” Of God’s Foreknowledge…'
https://forums.carm.org/threads/understanding-the-“how”-of-god’s-foreknowledge….6382/


00:48:07 Establishing The Omni-Attributes Of God (Hebrews 1:3, Acts 17:28, Colossians 1:17)
00:51:50 Omniscience Examined (Who/What Determined Gods Knowledge)
00:55:31 Asking “How God Knows” Is Essentially The Death Nail To Freewill
00:58:49 Omnipotence Properly Defined And Understood
01:04:26 Omnipotence Is Referring To Extent Not Degree
01:07:26 Omnipotence Rock Example
01:08:32 Properly Explaining Miracles
01:10:13 Properly Defining Evil/Sin
01:14:29 Examining Counterfactuals In Molinist “Middle Knowledge”
01:17:00 God Can Only Know What Can Logically Be Known
01:19:41 Which God Is “Greater” (God That Determined Or Learned)
01:22:11 Does God “Gain” His Omniscience/Omnipotence Addressed
 
T

TomFL

Guest
Just because TomFL cannot explain God’s Omni Attributes does not mean others can’t…

Thread 'Understanding The “HOW” Of God’s Foreknowledge…'
https://forums.carm.org/threads/understanding-the-“how”-of-god’s-foreknowledge….6382/


00:48:07 Establishing The Omni-Attributes Of God (Hebrews 1:3, Acts 17:28, Colossians 1:17)
00:51:50 Omniscience Examined (Who/What Determined Gods Knowledge)
00:55:31 Asking “How God Knows” Is Essentially The Death Nail To Freewill
00:58:49 Omnipotence Properly Defined And Understood
01:04:26 Omnipotence Is Referring To Extent Not Degree
01:07:26 Omnipotence Rock Example
01:08:32 Properly Explaining Miracles
01:10:13 Properly Defining Evil/Sin
01:14:29 Examining Counterfactuals In Molinist “Middle Knowledge”
01:17:00 God Can Only Know What Can Logically Be Known
01:19:41 Which God Is “Greater” (God That Determined Or Learned)
01:22:11 Does God “Gain” His Omniscience/Omnipotence Addressed
Oh another video you won't take the time to extoll

FYI no one claims God gains or has to learn

and you cannot put God in a box based on human understanding

BTW you cannot deny what the bible speaks of

(ARV 2005) but without thy mind I would do nothing, that thy goodness should not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(ASV-2014) but without thy mind I would do nothing; that thy goodness should not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(Anderson) but, without your consent, I was not willing to do any thing, that your good deed might not be as a matter of necessity, but one of free-will.
(ASV) but without thy mind I would do nothing; that thy goodness should not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(FAA) but I did not want to do anything without your opinion, so that your good deed would not be as it were under compulsion, but of free will.
(GDBY_NT) but without your consent I did not wish to do anything; in order that your good might not be by constraint, but by the free will:
(GW) Yet, I didn't want to do anything without your consent. I want you to do this favor for me out of your own free will without feeling forced to do it.
(csb) But I didn't want to do anything without your consent, so that your good deed might not be out of obligation, but of your own free will.
(LEB) But apart from your consent, I wanted to do nothing, in order that your good deed might be not as according to necessity, but according to your own free will.
(MRC) but without your consent I did not want to do anything, that your goodness might not be by necessity, but of your own free will.
(MNT) But without your consent I was unwilling to do anything, so that your kindness to me might be of your own free will, and not of compulsion.
(NTVR) but without thy mind I would do nothing; that thy goodness should not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(Revised Standard ) but I preferred to do nothing without your consent in order that your goodness might not be by compulsion but of your own free will.
(RNT) but without your consent I am unwilling to do anything, so that your goodness may not be of necessity but of free will.
(RSV) but I preferred to do nothing without your consent in order that your goodness might not be by compulsion but of your own free will.
(TLV) But I didn’t want to do anything without your consent, so that your goodness wouldn’t be by force but by free will.
(WEB) But I was willing to do nothing without your consent, that your goodness would not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(WEB (R)) But I was willing to do nothing without your consent, that your goodness would not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(Wuest's) Georgia;;14-16 But I came to a decision in my heart to do nothing without your consent, in order that your goodness might not be as it were by compulsion but of your own free will. For perhaps on this account he was parted for a brief time in order that you might be possessing him fully and forever, no longer in the capacity of a slave, but above a slave, a brother , a beloved one, beloved most of all by me, how much more than that by you, both in his human relationship and in the Lord.
(NASB77) 14 but without your consent I did not want to do anything, that your goodness should not be as it were by compulsion, but of your own free will.
(NASB95) 14 but without your consent I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will.
(TEV) 14 However, I do not want to force you to help me; rather, I would like for you to do it of your own free will. So I will not do anything unless you agree.
(ERV) 14 but without thy mind I would do nothing; that thy goodness should not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(NHEB) 14 But I was willing to do nothing without your consent, that your goodness would not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(TCE) 14 but without your consent I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will.
and you can add both the NEB and the REB
CT 14 but I would not do any thing without thy consent, that the benefit derived from thee might not be as it were forced, but of free will.
NENT 14 but without thy: mind I wished to do nothing; that thy: goodness be not as of necessity, but of free will.
SLT 14 But without thy judgment I would do nothing; that good might not be as according to necessity, but according to free will.
(NEB) 14 But I would rather do nothing without your consent, so that your kindness may be a matter not of compulsion, but of your own free will.
(REB) 14 But I would rather do nothing without your consent, so that your kindness may be a matter not of compulsion, but of your own free will.
 

Sketo

Well-known member
BTW you cannot deny what the bible speaks of

(ARV 2005) but without thy mind I would do nothing, that thy goodness should not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(ASV-2014) but without thy mind I would do nothing; that thy goodness should not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(Anderson) but, without your consent, I was not willing to do any thing, that your good deed might not be as a matter of necessity, but one of free-will.
(ASV) but without thy mind I would do nothing; that thy goodness should not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(FAA) but I did not want to do anything without your opinion, so that your good deed would not be as it were under compulsion, but of free will.
(GDBY_NT) but without your consent I did not wish to do anything; in order that your good might not be by constraint, but by the free will:
(GW) Yet, I didn't want to do anything without your consent. I want you to do this favor for me out of your own free will without feeling forced to do it.
(csb) But I didn't want to do anything without your consent, so that your good deed might not be out of obligation, but of your own free will.
(LEB) But apart from your consent, I wanted to do nothing, in order that your good deed might be not as according to necessity, but according to your own free will.
(MRC) but without your consent I did not want to do anything, that your goodness might not be by necessity, but of your own free will.
(MNT) But without your consent I was unwilling to do anything, so that your kindness to me might be of your own free will, and not of compulsion.
(NTVR) but without thy mind I would do nothing; that thy goodness should not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(Revised Standard ) but I preferred to do nothing without your consent in order that your goodness might not be by compulsion but of your own free will.
(RNT) but without your consent I am unwilling to do anything, so that your goodness may not be of necessity but of free will.
(RSV) but I preferred to do nothing without your consent in order that your goodness might not be by compulsion but of your own free will.
(TLV) But I didn’t want to do anything without your consent, so that your goodness wouldn’t be by force but by free will.
(WEB) But I was willing to do nothing without your consent, that your goodness would not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(WEB (R)) But I was willing to do nothing without your consent, that your goodness would not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(Wuest's) Georgia;;14-16 But I came to a decision in my heart to do nothing without your consent, in order that your goodness might not be as it were by compulsion but of your own free will. For perhaps on this account he was parted for a brief time in order that you might be possessing him fully and forever, no longer in the capacity of a slave, but above a slave, a brother , a beloved one, beloved most of all by me, how much more than that by you, both in his human relationship and in the Lord.
(NASB77) 14 but without your consent I did not want to do anything, that your goodness should not be as it were by compulsion, but of your own free will.
(NASB95) 14 but without your consent I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will.
(TEV) 14 However, I do not want to force you to help me; rather, I would like for you to do it of your own free will. So I will not do anything unless you agree.
(ERV) 14 but without thy mind I would do nothing; that thy goodness should not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(NHEB) 14 But I was willing to do nothing without your consent, that your goodness would not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(TCE) 14 but without your consent I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will.
and you can add both the NEB and the REB
CT 14 but I would not do any thing without thy consent, that the benefit derived from thee might not be as it were forced, but of free will.
NENT 14 but without thy: mind I wished to do nothing; that thy: goodness be not as of necessity, but of free will.
SLT 14 But without thy judgment I would do nothing; that good might not be as according to necessity, but according to free will.
(NEB) 14 But I would rather do nothing without your consent, so that your kindness may be a matter not of compulsion, but of your own free will.
(REB) 14 But I would rather do nothing without your consent, so that your kindness may be a matter not of compulsion, but of your own free will.

…and none of that proves you are ever free from God

Your “will” is not “free” to function by a power other than God…

so you have not proven your Semi-Deistic Dualism yet.
 
T

TomFL

Guest
…and none of that proves you are ever free from God

Your “will” is not “free” to function by a power other than God…

so you have not proven your Semi-Deistic Dualism yet.
No one ever claimed to be free from God

God can intervein wherever/whenever he likes

you however denied free will contrary to the bible

(ARV 2005) but without thy mind I would do nothing, that thy goodness should not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(ASV-2014) but without thy mind I would do nothing; that thy goodness should not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(Anderson) but, without your consent, I was not willing to do any thing, that your good deed might not be as a matter of necessity, but one of free-will.
(ASV) but without thy mind I would do nothing; that thy goodness should not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(FAA) but I did not want to do anything without your opinion, so that your good deed would not be as it were under compulsion, but of free will.
(GDBY_NT) but without your consent I did not wish to do anything; in order that your good might not be by constraint, but by the free will:
(GW) Yet, I didn't want to do anything without your consent. I want you to do this favor for me out of your own free will without feeling forced to do it.
(csb) But I didn't want to do anything without your consent, so that your good deed might not be out of obligation, but of your own free will.
(LEB) But apart from your consent, I wanted to do nothing, in order that your good deed might be not as according to necessity, but according to your own free will.
(MRC) but without your consent I did not want to do anything, that your goodness might not be by necessity, but of your own free will.
(MNT) But without your consent I was unwilling to do anything, so that your kindness to me might be of your own free will, and not of compulsion.
(NTVR) but without thy mind I would do nothing; that thy goodness should not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(Revised Standard ) but I preferred to do nothing without your consent in order that your goodness might not be by compulsion but of your own free will.
(RNT) but without your consent I am unwilling to do anything, so that your goodness may not be of necessity but of free will.
(RSV) but I preferred to do nothing without your consent in order that your goodness might not be by compulsion but of your own free will.
(TLV) But I didn’t want to do anything without your consent, so that your goodness wouldn’t be by force but by free will.
(WEB) But I was willing to do nothing without your consent, that your goodness would not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(WEB (R)) But I was willing to do nothing without your consent, that your goodness would not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(Wuest's) Georgia;;14-16 But I came to a decision in my heart to do nothing without your consent, in order that your goodness might not be as it were by compulsion but of your own free will. For perhaps on this account he was parted for a brief time in order that you might be possessing him fully and forever, no longer in the capacity of a slave, but above a slave, a brother , a beloved one, beloved most of all by me, how much more than that by you, both in his human relationship and in the Lord.
(NASB77) 14 but without your consent I did not want to do anything, that your goodness should not be as it were by compulsion, but of your own free will.
(NASB95) 14 but without your consent I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will.
(TEV) 14 However, I do not want to force you to help me; rather, I would like for you to do it of your own free will. So I will not do anything unless you agree.
(ERV) 14 but without thy mind I would do nothing; that thy goodness should not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(NHEB) 14 But I was willing to do nothing without your consent, that your goodness would not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(TCE) 14 but without your consent I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will.
and you can add both the NEB and the REB
CT 14 but I would not do any thing without thy consent, that the benefit derived from thee might not be as it were forced, but of free will.
NENT 14 but without thy: mind I wished to do nothing; that thy: goodness be not as of necessity, but of free will.
SLT 14 But without thy judgment I would do nothing; that good might not be as according to necessity, but according to free will.
(NEB) 14 But I would rather do nothing without your consent, so that your kindness may be a matter not of compulsion, but of your own free will.
(REB) 14 But I would rather do nothing without your consent, so that your kindness may be a matter not of compulsion, but of your own free will.

you have not proven your gnostic Manichean theology

and your belief that God determines all things including the sinful thoughts lusts and deeds of men is clearly unbiblical

Jeremiah 19:5 (ESV)
5 and have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as burnt offerings to Baal, which I did not command or decree, nor did it come into my mind—

According to God did he cause them to burn their children in the fire ?
 

Sketo

Well-known member
…and none of that proves you are ever free from God

Your “will” is not “free” to function by a power other than God…

so you have not proven your Semi-Deistic Dualism yet.

No one ever claimed to be free from God

You missed it… I will post it again for you…

Your “will” is not “free” to function by a power other than God…

so you have not proven your Semi-Deistic Dualism yet.



God can intervein wherever/whenever he likes

… and this is your Semi-Deism. You suggest that “wherever/whenever” God is not intervening then something can function by a power other than God. The Bible does not support this.


Hebrews 1:3 “he upholds the universe by the word of his power.”

Colossians 1:17 “he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.”

Acts 17:28“In him we live and move and have our being”
 
T

TomFL

Guest



You missed it… I will post it again for you…







… and this is your Semi-Deism. You suggest that “wherever/whenever” God is not intervening then something can function by a power other than God. The Bible does not support this.


Hebrews 1:3 “he upholds the universe by the word of his power.”

Colossians 1:17 “he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.”

Acts 17:28“In him we live and move and have our being”

Not one of those verses disproves free will

Not one makes God the cause for the lusts, sinful thoughts and deeds of men

so why is it you cannot address these verses

James 1:13-14 (KJV)
13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

God didn't do it

Scripture states it was man's own lusts which caused the temptation

1 Corinthians 10:13 (KJV)
13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

If God determined your sin then this verse is false

1 John 2:16 (KJV)
16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

God stated these things are not from him but from the world

You contradict the word of God

Jeremiah 19:5 (ESV)
5 and have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as burnt offerings to Baal, which I did not command or decree, nor did it come into my mind—

God stated he was not the cause of this

Your philosophy stated he is

God should be heeded rather than your Gnostic-Manichean philosophy
 

Sketo

Well-known member
Not one of those verses disproves free will

They totally disprove your assumption that mans will can function by a Power other than God.

Mans "will" is not "free" to function by a Power other than God.

Semi-Deistic Dualism is Heresy...

Not one makes God the cause for the lusts, sinful thoughts and deeds of men

Are you suggesting there is another ULTIMATE Power, other than God, at work in the universe?

Dont you know that your Dualism is heresy...
 

civic

Well-known member
They totally disprove your assumption that mans will can function by a Power other than God.

Mans "will" is not "free" to function by a Power other than God.

Semi-Deistic Dualism is Heresy...



Are you suggesting there is another ULTIMATE Power, other than God, at work in the universe?

Dont you know that your Dualism is heresy...
I like your signature passages and your comments below each one. Good job !
 

praise_yeshua

Well-known member
They totally disprove your assumption that mans will can function by a Power other than God.

Mans "will" is not "free" to function by a Power other than God.

Semi-Deistic Dualism is Heresy...



Are you suggesting there is another ULTIMATE Power, other than God, at work in the universe?

Dont you know that your Dualism is heresy...

So imparting has no meaning? Does a "gift" have any meaning? How about intrinsic and innate?

There are so many problems with what you just said. I'll start with these.

By the way, "Dualism" means different things to different people.
 

praise_yeshua

Well-known member
To be clear about my position on "free will". I believe it ridiculous to challenge any concept of free will. In fact, without the principle of free will, the Scriptures are entirely nonsensical. They become nothing more than a murderous tyrants mad ravenings to justify his own despicable actions.

Free will is real.... It is just powerless to operate beyond the boundaries God has defined for it. Which is true of most anything God "upholds by the Word of His power"......
 

Sketo

Well-known member
Free will is real.... It is just powerless to operate beyond the boundaries God has defined for it. Which is true of most anything God "upholds by the Word of His power"......

You are suggesting that "within those boundaries" your will can "operate" by a power other than God...

Dualism = 2+ Ultimate powers at work in the universe = Heresy.

Timestamps...
0:03:22 Properly defining "freewill"
0:06:36 Foundational verses
00:11:40 Addressing Deiesm heresy
 
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