Free Will Meticulously Examined… and Refuted!

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TomFL

Guest
Chapter and verse

Philemon 1:14
(ARV 2005) but without thy mind I would do nothing, that thy goodness should not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(ASV-2014) but without thy mind I would do nothing; that thy goodness should not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(Anderson) but, without your consent, I was not willing to do any thing, that your good deed might not be as a matter of necessity, but one of free-will.
(ASV) but without thy mind I would do nothing; that thy goodness should not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(FAA) but I did not want to do anything without your opinion, so that your good deed would not be as it were under compulsion, but of free will.
(GDBY_NT) but without your consent I did not wish to do anything; in order that your good might not be by constraint, but by the free will:
(GW) Yet, I didn't want to do anything without your consent. I want you to do this favor for me out of your own free will without feeling forced to do it.
(csb) But I didn't want to do anything without your consent, so that your good deed might not be out of obligation, but of your own free will.
(LEB) But apart from your consent, I wanted to do nothing, in order that your good deed might be not as according to necessity, but according to your own free will.
(MRC) but without your consent I did not want to do anything, that your goodness might not be by necessity, but of your own free will.
(MNT) But without your consent I was unwilling to do anything, so that your kindness to me might be of your own free will, and not of compulsion.
(NTVR) but without thy mind I would do nothing; that thy goodness should not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(Revised Standard ) but I preferred to do nothing without your consent in order that your goodness might not be by compulsion but of your own free will.
(RNT) but without your consent I am unwilling to do anything, so that your goodness may not be of necessity but of free will.
(RSV-CE) but I preferred to do nothing without your consent in order that your goodness might not be by compulsion but of your own free will.
(TLV) But I didn’t want to do anything without your consent, so that your goodness wouldn’t be by force but by free will.
(WEB) But I was willing to do nothing without your consent, that your goodness would not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(WEB (R)) But I was willing to do nothing without your consent, that your goodness would not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(Wuest's) Georgia;;14-16 But I came to a decision in my heart to do nothing without your consent, in order that your goodness might not be as it were by compulsion but of your own free will. For perhaps on this account he was parted for a brief time in order that you might be possessing him fully and forever, no longer in the capacity of a slave, but above a slave, a brother , a beloved one, beloved most of all by me, how much more than that by you, both in his human relationship and in the Lord.
(NASB77) 14 but without your consent I did not want to do anything, that your goodness should not be as it were by compulsion, but of your own free will.
(NASB95) 14 but without your consent I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will.
(TEV) 14 However, I do not want to force you to help me; rather, I would like for you to do it of your own free will. So I will not do anything unless you agree.
(ERV) 14 but without thy mind I would do nothing; that thy goodness should not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(NHEB) 14 But I was willing to do nothing without your consent, that your goodness would not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(TCE) 14 but without your consent I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will.
CT 14 but I would not do any thing without thy consent, that the benefit derived from thee might not be as it were forced, but of free will.
NENT 14 but without thy: mind I wished to do nothing; that thy: goodness be not as of necessity, but of free will.
SLT 14 But without thy judgment I would do nothing; that good might not be as according to necessity, but according to free will.
(NEB) 14 But I would rather do nothing without your consent, so that your kindness may be a matter not of compulsion, but of your own free will.
(REB) 14 But I would rather do nothing without your consent, so that your kindness may be a matter not of compulsion, but of your own free will.
 

praise_yeshua

Well-known member
I never called you a heretic.
If you take on that identify for yourself, that's on you.

Then why even mention it in response to me? Should I include this appeal in everyone of my responses to you?

I respectfully disagree.
"Free will" is NOWHERE "implied" in your verse.

Okay. We disagree. No surprise there.

Show me the words, "free will" then.
I can show you the word "heretics" in my post.

I must admit that I don't understand your comments. My apologies. Can you elaborate. Maybe I'm missing the obvious.

I see... So I'm supposed to blindly believe free will is "implied", because YOU CLAIM it is.
Sorry, not convinced.

I see that you know a little bit about variables when it comes to programming. You understand that a variable is a choice. It can not be anything less than a choice.

Where does that imply "ability"?
Freedom is "close" to lions in the zoo.
Does that mean they have the "ability" to free themselves?
Of course not.

So you believe Paul had a similar thought in mind when he used those words? That he pictured a trapped lion?

Sorry. I'm not convinced. The phrase indicates how God is not far away. It doesn't have any sense of a trap. In fact, the phrase gives the hearer/reader hope. That the solution to their problem is "right there"..... "close by".
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Sorry. I'm not convinced.

You're very confused.
I've NEVER tried to "convince" you of anything.
YOU were the one with the bogus claim.
So I'M the one who needs convincing.

And so since you can't demonstrate "free will" from that (or any other) verse, I guess we're done.
 

praise_yeshua

Well-known member
You're very confused.
I've NEVER tried to "convince" you of anything.
YOU were the one with the bogus claim.
So I'M the one who needs convincing.

You were trying to convince me of your view of OBLIGATION only. This is why we have discussions instead of simple "questions and answer" sessions. This isn't an "question and answer" style forum. It is a discussion forum. We discuss issues and possible answers.

And so since you can't demonstrate "free will" from that (or any other) verse, I guess we're done.

I believe I did. We can disagree and leave to God. I'm fine with that.

There are other verses to discuss. What about verses that talk of a individuals freedom to reject compulsion and act of their own freewill?

One of those verses is one referenced by TomL. The ESV is particularly interesting.

Phm 1:14 but I preferred to do nothing without your consent in order that your goodness might not be by compulsion but of your own accord.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
You were trying to convince me of your view of OBLIGATION only.

No, actually, I wasn't.
Why would I be trying to "convince" you of ANYTHING?
I couldn't care less what you believe.
You see, I'm not the insecure one.

I believe I did. We can disagree and leave to God. I'm fine with that.

Goodbye, then..
Why do you keep responding?

There are other verses to discuss. What about verses that talk of a individuals freedom to reject compulsion and act of their own freewill?

I've read through the entire Bible MANY many times, and never encountered your imaginary verses.
I guess that's why you weren't able to quote them, right?

That's another thing heretics do... They'll CLAIM that there are verses in the Bible, but never quote or cite them, since they are too afraid people will notice they don't say what you claimed.

One of those verses is one referenced by TomL. The ESV is particularly interesting.

Phm 1:14 but I preferred to do nothing without your consent in order that your goodness might not be by compulsion but of your own accord.

Yes, I've seen Tom's list of "proof-texts" for this and other issues many times. His abolute disrespect of God and abuse of Scripture is one of the reasons I've got him on "ignore".

He "cherry-picks" specific obscure translations that no one's ever heard of, mostly translated by individuals, and only because he thinks they support his view. This is fallacious argumentation.

I'm glad you quoted from the ESV.
It mentions NOTHING about "free will".
The two Greek words meaning "to will" are "θελω" and "βουλομαι".
Neither of these appears in your proof-text.
 

praise_yeshua

Well-known member
No, actually, I wasn't.
Why would I be trying to "convince" you of ANYTHING?
I couldn't care less what you believe.
You see, I'm not the insecure one.

More implications from you..... I don't believe you're being fair with in this conversation. I'm not insecure. You've been this way from the beginning with me. Brother. I'm just going to stop right here. Enjoy your life. I pray God best be yours in Jesus Christ.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
More implications from you..... I don't believe you're being fair with in this conversation. I'm not insecure. You've been this way from the beginning with me. Brother. I'm just going to stop right here. Enjoy your life. I pray God best be yours in Jesus Christ.

So you can't defend your false teachings, so you resort to personal attacks.
Why am I not surprised?
 

praise_yeshua

Well-known member
So you can't defend your false teachings, so you resort to personal attacks.
Why am I not surprised?

I can defend everything I've said. What I'm not going to accept is your use of "I'm not the one that needs convincing" and "You see, I'm not the insecure one." in response.

I did not personally attack you. I simply said that you've been this way toward me from the beginning. That is a fact. Your claim of "personal attack" is bogus. I'm not going to personally attack you.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
I can defend everything I've said. What I'm not going to accept is your use of "I'm not the that needs convincing" and "You see, I'm not the insecure one." in response.

I did not personally attack you. I simply said that you've been this way toward me from the beginning. That is a fact. Your claim of "personal attack" is bogus.

I haven't personally attacked you.
I've simply stated facts.

I'm not going to personally attack you. I'm avoiding you.

And you find that continuing to respond to me is an effective way of "avoiding" me?
 

praise_yeshua

Well-known member
I haven't personally attacked you.
I've simply stated facts.



And you find that continuing to respond to me is an effective way of "avoiding" me?

You've said you've had me on ignore before.......

It is funny how YOUR... "facts" aren't personal attacks and my "facts" are..... You have a huge problem with double standards. This the last time I respond. I just wanted to be clear. I've said enough.
 
T

TomFL

Guest
You're very confused.
I've NEVER tried to "convince" you of anything.
YOU were the one with the bogus claim.
So I'M the one who needs convincing.

And so since you can't demonstrate "free will" from that (or any other) verse, I guess we're done.
(ARV 2005) but without thy mind I would do nothing, that thy goodness should not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(ASV-2014) but without thy mind I would do nothing; that thy goodness should not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(Anderson) but, without your consent, I was not willing to do any thing, that your good deed might not be as a matter of necessity, but one of free-will.
(ASV) but without thy mind I would do nothing; that thy goodness should not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(FAA) but I did not want to do anything without your opinion, so that your good deed would not be as it were under compulsion, but of free will.
(GDBY_NT) but without your consent I did not wish to do anything; in order that your good might not be by constraint, but by the free will:
(GW) Yet, I didn't want to do anything without your consent. I want you to do this favor for me out of your own free will without feeling forced to do it.
(csb) But I didn't want to do anything without your consent, so that your good deed might not be out of obligation, but of your own free will.
(LEB) But apart from your consent, I wanted to do nothing, in order that your good deed might be not as according to necessity, but according to your own free will.
(MRC) but without your consent I did not want to do anything, that your goodness might not be by necessity, but of your own free will.
(MNT) But without your consent I was unwilling to do anything, so that your kindness to me might be of your own free will, and not of compulsion.
(NTVR) but without thy mind I would do nothing; that thy goodness should not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(Revised Standard ) but I preferred to do nothing without your consent in order that your goodness might not be by compulsion but of your own free will.
(RNT) but without your consent I am unwilling to do anything, so that your goodness may not be of necessity but of free will.
(RSV-CE) but I preferred to do nothing without your consent in order that your goodness might not be by compulsion but of your own free will.
(TLV) But I didn’t want to do anything without your consent, so that your goodness wouldn’t be by force but by free will.
(WEB) But I was willing to do nothing without your consent, that your goodness would not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(WEB (R)) But I was willing to do nothing without your consent, that your goodness would not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(Wuest's) Georgia;;14-16 But I came to a decision in my heart to do nothing without your consent, in order that your goodness might not be as it were by compulsion but of your own free will. For perhaps on this account he was parted for a brief time in order that you might be possessing him fully and forever, no longer in the capacity of a slave, but above a slave, a brother , a beloved one, beloved most of all by me, how much more than that by you, both in his human relationship and in the Lord.
(NASB77) 14 but without your consent I did not want to do anything, that your goodness should not be as it were by compulsion, but of your own free will.
(NASB95) 14 but without your consent I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will.
(TEV) 14 However, I do not want to force you to help me; rather, I would like for you to do it of your own free will. So I will not do anything unless you agree.
(ERV) 14 but without thy mind I would do nothing; that thy goodness should not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(NHEB) 14 But I was willing to do nothing without your consent, that your goodness would not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(TCE) 14 but without your consent I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will.
and you can add both the NEB and the REB
CT 14 but I would not do any thing without thy consent, that the benefit derived from thee might not be as it were forced, but of free will.
NENT 14 but without thy: mind I wished to do nothing; that thy: goodness be not as of necessity, but of free will.
SLT 14 But without thy judgment I would do nothing; that good might not be as according to necessity, but according to free will.
(NEB) 14 But I would rather do nothing without your consent, so that your kindness may be a matter not of compulsion, but of your own free will.
(REB) 14 But I would rather do nothing without your consent, so that your kindness may be a matter not of compulsion, but of your own free will.
(MOFF)
14 but I did not want to do anything without your consent, so that your goodness to me might come of your own free will, without any appearance of constraint.
 
T

TomFL

Guest
No, actually, I wasn't.
Why would I be trying to "convince" you of ANYTHING?
I couldn't care less what you believe.
You see, I'm not the insecure one.



Goodbye, then..
Why do you keep responding?



I've read through the entire Bible MANY many times, and never encountered your imaginary verses.
I guess that's why you weren't able to quote them, right?

That's another thing heretics do... They'll CLAIM that there are verses in the Bible, but never quote or cite them, since they are too afraid people will notice they don't say what you claimed.



Yes, I've seen Tom's list of "proof-texts" for this and other issues many times. His abolute disrespect of God and abuse of Scripture is one of the reasons I've got him on "ignore".

He "cherry-picks" specific obscure translations that no one's ever heard of, mostly translated by individuals, and only because he thinks they support his view. This is fallacious argumentation.

I'm glad you quoted from the ESV.
It mentions NOTHING about "free will".
The two Greek words meaning "to will" are "θελω" and "βουλομαι".
Neither of these appears in your proof-text.
Obscure like the

NASB
ASV
CSB
RSV
NEB

All committee translations

and if the old testament is examined

NKJV
Youngs
NET
NJV
Douay Rheems
NIV
NSRV
KJV
ESV

Just one non committee translation Youngs who is famous for both a Greek and Hebrew concordance

Its laughable you speak of hermenuetics and exegesis when all you offer is denial and bald face falsehoods
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
You've said you've had me on ignore before.......

Yes, I probably did.
That may have been in the previous forum, or I may have decided to give you another chance. I can't recall. But you have demonstrated that reasonable discussion with you is impossible.

"It's implied, and if you don't see it, tough! What I say goes!"

It is funny how YOUR... "facts" aren't personal attacks and my "facts" are.....

Funny, I was just thinking the same about you.
After all, YOU were the one who first claimed your personal attacks were merely "facts".
I was simply responding to you as per Prov. 26:5.

You have a huge problem with double standards.

You have a huge problem with pronouns.
That statement is true for you, not for me.

This the last time I respond.

"For the fifth time, this is the last time I respond!"
:D
 
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TomFL

Guest
I can defend everything I've said. What I'm not going to accept is your use of "I'm not the one that needs convincing" and "You see, I'm not the insecure one." in response.

I did not personally attack you. I simply said that you've been this way toward me from the beginning. That is a fact. Your claim of "personal attack" is bogus. I'm not going to personally attack you.
That is something he routinely does
 

Reformedguy

Well-known member
Philemon 1:14
(ARV 2005) but without thy mind I would do nothing, that thy goodness should not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(ASV-2014) but without thy mind I would do nothing; that thy goodness should not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(Anderson) but, without your consent, I was not willing to do any thing, that your good deed might not be as a matter of necessity, but one of free-will.
(ASV) but without thy mind I would do nothing; that thy goodness should not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(FAA) but I did not want to do anything without your opinion, so that your good deed would not be as it were under compulsion, but of free will.
(GDBY_NT) but without your consent I did not wish to do anything; in order that your good might not be by constraint, but by the free will:
(GW) Yet, I didn't want to do anything without your consent. I want you to do this favor for me out of your own free will without feeling forced to do it.
(csb) But I didn't want to do anything without your consent, so that your good deed might not be out of obligation, but of your own free will.
(LEB) But apart from your consent, I wanted to do nothing, in order that your good deed might be not as according to necessity, but according to your own free will.
(MRC) but without your consent I did not want to do anything, that your goodness might not be by necessity, but of your own free will.
(MNT) But without your consent I was unwilling to do anything, so that your kindness to me might be of your own free will, and not of compulsion.
(NTVR) but without thy mind I would do nothing; that thy goodness should not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(Revised Standard ) but I preferred to do nothing without your consent in order that your goodness might not be by compulsion but of your own free will.
(RNT) but without your consent I am unwilling to do anything, so that your goodness may not be of necessity but of free will.
(RSV-CE) but I preferred to do nothing without your consent in order that your goodness might not be by compulsion but of your own free will.
(TLV) But I didn’t want to do anything without your consent, so that your goodness wouldn’t be by force but by free will.
(WEB) But I was willing to do nothing without your consent, that your goodness would not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(WEB (R)) But I was willing to do nothing without your consent, that your goodness would not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(Wuest's) Georgia;;14-16 But I came to a decision in my heart to do nothing without your consent, in order that your goodness might not be as it were by compulsion but of your own free will. For perhaps on this account he was parted for a brief time in order that you might be possessing him fully and forever, no longer in the capacity of a slave, but above a slave, a brother , a beloved one, beloved most of all by me, how much more than that by you, both in his human relationship and in the Lord.
(NASB77) 14 but without your consent I did not want to do anything, that your goodness should not be as it were by compulsion, but of your own free will.
(NASB95) 14 but without your consent I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will.
(TEV) 14 However, I do not want to force you to help me; rather, I would like for you to do it of your own free will. So I will not do anything unless you agree.
(ERV) 14 but without thy mind I would do nothing; that thy goodness should not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(NHEB) 14 But I was willing to do nothing without your consent, that your goodness would not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(TCE) 14 but without your consent I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will.
CT 14 but I would not do any thing without thy consent, that the benefit derived from thee might not be as it were forced, but of free will.
NENT 14 but without thy: mind I wished to do nothing; that thy: goodness be not as of necessity, but of free will.
SLT 14 But without thy judgment I would do nothing; that good might not be as according to necessity, but according to free will.
(NEB) 14 But I would rather do nothing without your consent, so that your kindness may be a matter not of compulsion, but of your own free will.
(REB) 14 But I would rather do nothing without your consent, so that your kindness may be a matter not of compulsion, but of your own free will.
Well in Context this is dealing with a specific situation. That won't stop the choice meat crowd though.

Also this verse is addressed to believers. Remember audience relevance? So do unbelievers have free will?
 
T

TomFL

Guest
Well in Context this is dealing with a specific situation. That won't stop the choice meat crowd though.

Also this verse is addressed to believers. Remember audience relevance? So do unbelievers have free will?

So are you confessing free will is true for believers

Do you have any evidence there was no free will before belief

The ability to believe is presupposed in scripture

John 20:31 (KJV)
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

John 1:7 (KJV)
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

Romans 10:11-17 (KJV)
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
 
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Reformedguy

Well-known member
So are you confessing free will is true for believers

Do you have any evidence there was no free will before belief

The ability to believe is presupposed in scripture

John 20:31 (KJV)
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

John 1:7 (KJV)
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

Romans 10:11-17 (KJV)
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Thats not what I said at all. The point is the text is addressed to believers dealing with a particular situation. You know, the context thing you and the choice meat crowd have a hard time with.

No, you presuppose it. The Bible does not.
 
T

TomFL

Guest
Thats not what I said at all. The point is the text is addressed to believers dealing with a particular situation. You know, the context thing you and the choice meat crowd have a hard time with.

No, you presuppose it. The Bible does not.
You are sounding kind of pathetic there guy

You don't know what regeneration is and all you have to offer is denial and stale guilt by association tactics based on out of context third party statements

So are you confessing free will is true for believers

Do you have any evidence there was no free will before belief

The ability to believe is presupposed in scripture

John 20:31 (KJV)
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

John 1:7 (KJV)
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

Romans 10:11-17 (KJV)
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
 
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