Free Will Meticulously Examined… and Refuted!

But you're missing the point. It still wasn't God's will for them for them to make wrong choices to end up there.
God’s Foreknowledge is Gods perfect knowledge of the results of his own actions.

If God 100% knows that by creating someone that they will certainly choose to sin, then by taking that act of creating them, he is ENSURING that His foreknown results of that action will happen. Period.

The part that you are missing is God is not “forced” to create anyone that He perfectly knows will sin… therefore by taking the, bare minimum, action of creating, from that foreknowledge, it can be said that it was Gods “will” for them to sin.

“free will” can not change this fact!



It seems Calvinists make this about every extreme thing they can imagine what free will must mean but it's not important to prove mankind has "free will" in however extreme way one wants to define it.

The only imagined thing here is the unjustified claim that the God that perfectly knows the future of his creation, before creation, can also be the same God that “gives” the ability, after creation, to do other than what he perfectly knew.

There is ZERO biblical foundational support for this imaginary idea but you claim it anyway!

Justify your claim…

Some would ask can someone forbid to go to hell if God says they're going there. All say NO thus mankind does not have free will!

Did God know for 100% certainty those who end up in hell, before he created them, would end up there?

If you say yes then the very act of creating them is no different then “God -saying- they’re going” there! Nothing can change this without destroying Gods knowledge before he created!

But advocating free will when it comes to one choosing LIFE is a freedom God HAS PROVIDED.

This is the unjustifiable claim that the Bible does not support! The God who knows perfectly can not also “PROVIDE” freedom to do other than his foreknowledge! Logically impossible!

At what point before, or after creation, can God “PROVIDE” you with the “freedom” to do other than his foreknowledge… without affecting the “fore” part of his knowledge?

It’s unbiblical, unjustifiable, and illogical… this is why every Provisionist is forced to appeal to mystery, because this concept can only exist in the imagination!

Justify your claim!

A parent may give their child the freedom to stay out till 9:00 pm. They have the free will choice to do that and no one can argue that they don't. Do they have the free will choice to stay out till 10? No. But they still had freewill as defined by what they were allowed.

A “parent’s relationship to their child” is to weak of an argument to describe the the metaphysical relationship between God and his creation!

The Bible states…

Hebrews 1:3 “he upholds the universe by the word of his power.”

Colossians 1:17 “he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.”

Acts 17:28“‘In him we live and move and have our being’;”

You are describing a “relationship” between a “parent and child” that can exist precisely because the parent is NOT God!

To suggest that any part of Gods creation can be meticulously disconnected from God is suggesting Semi-Deistic Dualism where things are happening by a power other than God… and scripture does not support this anywhere!

If God could create and let go of something such that it functions apart from the power of God then the very moment it starts functioning by that other power God is no longer Omnipotent… this is the heresy of Dualism!
 
In some sense we have to say the very existence of sin is a form of God's will, in that he could disallow it.
I do like your post but I'd say the existence of sin was never God's will, what was his will was the mere allowance of man going a different direction that LIFE. What was his will was that he maintain his character of LOVE, that is if you love something allow it to have freedom.
God desires to create potential, without the realization or actualization.
Well said. And he created the potential for he is LOVE and with LOVE there MUST be Liberty.
 
The only imagined thing here is the unjustified claim that the God that perfectly knows the future of his creation, before creation

There is ZERO biblical foundational support for this imaginary idea but you claim it anyway!

There it is. Sketo affirms the premise behind open theism
 
Shouldn't cut quotes out of context.
The context is there

Anyone can read it

Is there any doubt he supported the premise upon which open theism resides

Mind you this is not a claim he is an open theist

only that he supports the premise of open theism
 
There it is. Sketo affirms the premise behind open theism

Wow… is this how you also treat Gods word…
You are better than this Tom…

(My quote in context…)
The only imagined thing here is the unjustified claim that the God that perfectly knows the future of his creation, before creation, can also be the same God that “gives” the ability, after creation, to do other than what he perfectly knew.

There is ZERO biblical foundational support for this imaginary idea but you claim it anyway!

Justify your claim…

The “free will” position’s claim is that God can be the “perfect knowerbefore creation, and also be the “free to do other than giverafter creation!

This is the unbiblical, unjustifiable, illogical, claim!
 
Shouldn't cut quotes out of context.
Go and do likewise when you accuse me of saying something I did not say and also do not quote what you claimed I said but in reality never said what you claimed.

Shouldn't cut my quotes out of the context either when you reply or start a thread with a fallacious argument about me.
 
Wow… is this how you also treat Gods word…
You are better than this Tom…

(My quote in context…)


The “free will” position’s claim is that God can be the “perfect knowerbefore creation, and also be the “free to do other than giverafter creation!

This is the unbiblical, unjustifiable, illogical, claim!
 
Everybody is responsible for their own sins, and cannot foolishly blame anyone else. Now in regards to the will, Jesus said no one can serve two masters, but will serve one or the other. And if they have a master, that means they are a slave to that master. This is found in Matthew 6:24 and Romans 6:16ff.
 
Sketo said:
Wow… is this how you also treat Gods word…
You are better than this Tom…

(My quote in context…)


The “free will” position’s claim is that God can be the “perfect knowerbefore creation, and also be the “free to do other than giverafter creation!

This is the unbiblical, unjustifiable, illogical, claim!

It is only illogical if you confound foreknowledge with necessity and determination
 
Does God make you sin every time you sin?

Does the devil make you sin every time you sin?

Who is left?

You.

But we have people on here claiming that saying the devil made me sin is wrong, and claiming God made me sin is wrong, yet claiming I have any real free will is wrong.

And they don't even see their own inconsistency and how they constantly contradict themselves, then make up false accusations of misrepresentation like the devil.

Strongholds.
Good point

You

Even if the Calvinist opts for permission

What is God permitting but the free will of a creature
 
I didn't, you false accuser. And you can't prove I did.

Your not being consistent, is not me quoting you out of context.

Me not agreeing with the logical conclusions you insist have to be, is not me quoting you out of context.

Me not phrasing things exactly to your liking, is not me quoting you out of context.


I don't think you are thinking straight because of spiritual strongholds in your life and so I won't hold it against you.

But if you had integrity, you would apologize.
get over yourself

I have strongholds ?

I will bet you a 1000/1 not a single Arminian on CARM will agree with you.

Are you sure you are an Arminian ?

Doctrine doesn't make you an Arminian, one has to put those beliefs into practice or have you forgotten about that part of your religion ?
 
Does God make you sin every time you sin?

Does the devil make you sin every time you sin?

Who is left?

You.

But we have people on here claiming that saying the devil made me sin is wrong, and claiming God made me sin is wrong, yet claiming I have any real free will is wrong.

And they don't even see their own inconsistency and how they constantly contradict themselves, then make up false accusations of misrepresentation like the devil.

Strongholds.
That is my argument in my OP sherlock with the Flip Wilson video.

Now all of a sudden you agree with me when in your thread you mocked me ?

You have stooped to siths level how pathetic.
 
@Dizerner asks this question.

when is it time to move on..​


now is as good of time as any......................................

as they say if you cannot stand the heat get our of the kitchen. This forum is not for the thinned skin nor the weak in heart.
 
But there is more than a factor of love here, because why do the consequences for rejection/sin necessarily have to be so severe?
I lean towards believing the traditional view of Hell but it should be noted that many have different thoughts on what Hell is and it's duration and they feel they've got scripture to back up their views. But let's go with the traditional view....why so servere. I'd say yes because God is LOVE, love will send out the strongest message possible to stay out of spiritual death. If he didn't he wouldn't have done what LOVE should do to ensure the message is clear, don't degeneate the creation with sin.
For this I think we need the explanation of holiness, and not love.
Scripture says though that God is LOVE. He doesn't have LOVE he is LOVE. 1 Jn 4:7 . Even judgments of God are a part of his mercy (a manifestation of LOVE) for one can read in the Psalms of judgements he carried out and one reads this seemingly unusual statement with it. For his mercy endures forever! Or his LOVE. Judgement is a manifestation of LOVE after God has waited and has been patient with longsuffering because he is good he cannot allow evil to continue forever. (See below) Ps 136

10 To Him who struck Egypt in their firstborn, For His mercy endures forever 11 And brought out Israel from among them,
For His mercy endures forever;12 With a strong hand, and with [a]an outstretched arm, For His mercy endures forever;
13 To Him who divided the Red Sea in two, For His mercy endures forever;14 And made Israel pass through the midst of it,
For His mercy endures forever;15 But overthrew Pharaoh and his army in the Red Sea, For His mercy endures forever;
16 To Him who led His people through the wilderness, For His mercy endures forever;17 To Him who struck down great kings,
For His mercy endures forever;18 And slew famous kings ,For His mercy endures forever19 Sihon king of the Amorites,
For His mercy endures forever;20 And Og king of Bashan, For His mercy endures forever— Psalm 136


I did qualify with "in a sense," the sense he could have prevented the possibility.
 
Scripture says though that God is LOVE. He doesn't have LOVE he is LOVE. 1 Jn 4:7 . Even judgments of God are a part of his mercy (a manifestation of LOVE) for one can read in the Psalms of judgements he carried out and one reads this seemingly unusual statement with it.

Invite me over the next time your pastor preaches a sermon on "the loving wrath of God".
 
The only imagined thing here is the unjustified claim that the God that perfectly knows the future of his creation, before creation, can also be the same God that “gives” the ability, after creation, to do other than what he perfectly knew.

There is ZERO biblical foundational support for this imaginary idea but you claim it anyway!

Justify your claim…



Did God know for 100% certainty those who end up in hell, before he created them, would end up there?

If you say yes then the very act of creating them is no different then “God -saying- they’re going” there! Nothing can change this without destroying Gods knowledge before he created!

You continue confounding foreknowledge with determination and necessity

Its very different.

knowing someone will do something is not the same as making them do it
 
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