Free Will Meticulously Examined… and Refuted!

Yet it says God hardened Pharaohs and latter it says Pharoah hardened his heart? Can they both be true?

Who is Acts 28:27 referring to?
Stop diverting and actually address the issue

John 12:40 (ESV)
40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, Lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.”

what does the highlighted clause mean ?

No answer

The word lest ?

Obviously not dealt with either

lest
[lest]

CONJUNCTION
formal


  1. with the intention of preventing (something undesirable); to avoid the risk of.
    "he spent whole days in his room, headphones on lest he disturb anyone"
    • (after a clause indicating fear) because of the possibility of something undesirable happening; in case.
stop diverting and deal with the verse


What was God preventing according to the verse

Why would God blind those who could not see because they were born blind according to Calvinist theology ?

again no answer

BTW them hardening their heart is just as much a problem for your theology

Acts 28:27 —KJV
“For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.”

their heart grew gross over time not a condition from birth and had it not grown gross

lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.”

either way you lose

stop diverting and address the issue which is not Pharaoh
 


Timestamp Outline for Your convenience!
1.5x Speed recommended. ⚙️

00:00:00 Intro
0:03:22 Properly defining "freewill"
0:06:36 Foundational verses
00:11:40 Addressing Deiesm heresy
00:15:38 Determinism established
00:20:11 …Visual example
00:25:06 Practical applications
00:30:08 Foundation necessary Eph 1:11
00:32:28 Misconceptions (semi-Deism)
00:36:21 Misunderstanding (God's involvement in creation)
00:41:54 Transcendent Author explained
00:45:07 God not just Author
00:47:11 Foundation question
00:52:12 Omni-atributes addressed
00:55:24 "Omnipotence" specifically
00:58:29 God can not "give" freedom
01:05:05 "Forced" assumption addressed
01:11:11 Meticulous Control or Duelism
01:13:00 Direct and Indirect causes addressed
01:16:46 "CHOICE" critically examined
01:21:00 God's "choice" different from man's "choice"
01:22:35 "choice" IN Finite Realm examined
01:27:13 "choice IN Infinite Realm examined
01:30:42 self-determinism IN finite realm = circular
01:32:06 "reason for choice" = Determinism
01:33:56 Different Circumstances Examined
01:35:45 "God has freewill so I can too" examined
01:39:22 God's choice BEFORE time and IN time
01:43:18 "Choice according to your GREATEST desire"
01:45:19 Can "desires" change... tomorrow?
01:46:50 "Ability to choose among competing desires" examined
01:52:05 Choice thought experiment
01:54:55 "ability to do otherwise" examined
02:04:31 "freewill" equivalent to illusion, magic trick, luck
02:11:53 If "freedom" = doing what you "want"
02:13:11 Believing "freewill" is not stupid
02:17:23 "freewill" assumed without foundation
02:20:37 PROBLEM OF EVIL
02:24:21 what is "evil"/"sin"?
02:26:52 what does "God can not sin" mean?
02:29:30 is God "responsible" for sin?
02:34:43 God the "Author" of sin addressed
02:37:11 emotional arguments addressed
02:40:21 "freewill" cant answer for "evil"
02:42:13 God "gave" freewill examined
02:47:07 "God allows/permits evil" examined
02:50:02 FAIRNESS examined
02:52:30 if God has the power to stop sin examined
02:53:08 RESPONSABILITY turned around
03:00:08 humanistic examples dont apply to God

03:04:16 QUESTIONS FOR FREEWILLERS
3:11:42 QUESTION 1 (If God knows, that by creating you, you will end up in hell, how is he not determined you to end up in hell by creating you?)
3:13:54 obj¹ ▶️“just because God foreknows does not mean he determined it” can not apply to God
3:19:29 obj² metaphysical disconnect argument
3:23:38 obj3 “God can foreknow independent from creating you” examined

3:25:53 QUESTION 1.1 (Why would God create anybody that He 100% knows will end up in hell?)
3:27:05 obj¹ difference between what God commands and what God “wants” to com to pass
3:27:48 example Christ Crucified
3:30:22 example Pharaoh
3:31:15 example joseph

03:32:44 QUESTION 2 (Could God have created [those he knew would end in hell] differently?)
03:35:24 QUESTION 2.5 (If God could… why didn’t He?)

03:38:52 “chooser of your own choices" second-layer fallacy examined
03:42:34 God as Divine Author Chapter/Verse
03:45:04 freewill makes God a "robot"
03:49:10 Molanism "God must deal with the hand dealt" addressed
03:51:36 Calvinism is the only system where God is "free"
03:54:06 ▶️"freewill" can not answer for Adam's fall

03:56:20 QUESTION 3 (If freewill is true why has there never been a sinless human?)
03:57:20 “freewill is necessary for true relationship” examined and refuted
04:00:58 only determinism can answer why no sinless humans?

04:02:15 QUESTION 4 (How does “eternal security” fit in a freewill system?)

04:04:00 QUESTION 5 (How can is be said “God is sending the Gospel” if it is up to the “freewill” of man?/ Who gets credit?)
04:05:44 QUESTION 5.5 (Why does God "send" the Gospel to those he knows will reject it?)

04:08:33 QUESTION 6 (Do you exist because of God’s “choice” or your parent’s “freewill choice”?)

04:12:28 QUESTION 7 (Why do “freewill” proponents say “Lord willing"? James 4:15)

04:15:12 QUESTION 8 (If freewill is true why "pray"?)

04:18:28 QUESTION 9 (How is it “fair” that God chooses when, where, and how to make you?)

04:20:44 QUESTION 1.2 (Questioning Melanism in light of “fairness”)

04:23:24 QUESTION 10 (Which view actually presents God as “bigger/better”?) [Leighton’s “chessboard analogy”]
04:26:31 QUESTION 10.1 (Can God be “bigger” by choosing to “limit” his knowledge to allow for freewill?)
04:29:18 QUESTION 10.2 (How is God being in control of all things a “lesser view”?)

04:32:35 ⭐️QUESTION 11 (Can God determine that you do what you “WANT” to do, and it also be what He “WANTS” you to do?)
04:37:48 ⭐️QUESTION 11 reiterated (Can God determine that you do what He “WANTS” you to do, and it also be what you “WANT” to do?
04:40:00 ⭐⭐️QUESTION 11 If you answer yes this is why you lose the debate.

04:46:30 Conclusion

The Consistent Calvinism Podcast

Death propagation.

No one can matter ..... no one can ever be.

And they call it LOVE.
 
Stop diverting and actually address the issue

John 12:40 (ESV)
40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, Lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.”

what does the highlighted clause mean ?

No answer

The word lest ?

Obviously not dealt with either

lest
[lest]

CONJUNCTION
formal


  1. with the intention of preventing (something undesirable); to avoid the risk of.
    "he spent whole days in his room, headphones on lest he disturb anyone"
    • (after a clause indicating fear) because of the possibility of something undesirable happening; in case.
stop diverting and deal with the verse


What was God preventing according to the verse

Why would God blind those who could not see because they were born blind according to Calvinist theology ?

again no answer

BTW them hardening their heart is just as much a problem for your theology

Acts 28:27 —KJV
“For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.”

their heart grew gross over time not a condition from birth and had it not grown gross

lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.”

either way you lose

stop diverting and address the issue which is not Pharaoh
bump
 
Understanding the distinction between Transcendent and Storyline Levels in the Bible is key to understanding many verses. Lights went on everywhere once I realized this distinction…

 
Understanding the distinction between Transcendent and Storyline Levels in the Bible is key to understanding many verses. Lights went on everywhere once I realized this distinction…

That is largely my view. The non-C answer is to strongly advocate a causal break. The C answer is to advocate a transcendent break differentiating between different types of causality.
 
Stop diverting and actually address the issue

John 12:40 (ESV)
40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, Lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.”

what does the highlighted clause mean ?

No answer

The word lest ?

Obviously not dealt with either

lest
[lest]

CONJUNCTION
formal


  1. with the intention of preventing (something undesirable); to avoid the risk of.
    "he spent whole days in his room, headphones on lest he disturb anyone"
    • (after a clause indicating fear) because of the possibility of something undesirable happening; in case.
stop diverting and deal with the verse


What was God preventing according to the verse

Why would God blind those who could not see because they were born blind according to Calvinist theology ?

again no answer

BTW them hardening their heart is just as much a problem for your theology

Acts 28:27 —KJV
“For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.”

their heart grew gross over time not a condition from birth and had it not grown gross

lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.”

either way you lose

stop diverting and address the issue which is not Pharaoh
Still not addressed
 
Yet it says God hardened Pharaohs and latter it says Pharoah hardened his heart? Can they both be true?

Exodus 9:33-10:1 is the Justification for “both being true”…

Storyline Level view
Transcendent Level view

So Moses went out of the city from Pharaoh and stretched out his hands to the LORD, and the thunder and the hail ceased, and the rain no longer poured upon the earth. But when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunder had ceased, he sinned yet again and hardened his heart, he and his servants. So the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, and he did not let the people of Israel go, just as the LORD had spoken through Moses.Then the LORD said to Moses, “Go in to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the heart of his servants, that I may show these signs of mine among them,

Pharaoh hardened his heart over and over again because God hardened his heart over and over again.
 
Last edited:
Acts 2 the DAY of Pentecost not addressed.

next
Again the issue I spoke of was the pouring out of the Spirit and the charimata which followed it

This was shown to have occurred multiple times

Pentecost was the first time but not the last

Acts 10:44-47 (KJV)
44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

There is no need to address Pentecost beyond that to sustain my point
 


Timestamp Outline for Your convenience!
1.5x Speed recommended. ⚙️

00:00:00 Intro
0:03:22 Properly defining "freewill"
0:06:36 Foundational verses
00:11:40 Addressing Deiesm heresy
00:15:38 Determinism established
00:20:11 …Visual example
00:25:06 Practical applications
00:30:08 Foundation necessary Eph 1:11
00:32:28 Misconceptions (semi-Deism)
00:36:21 Misunderstanding (God's involvement in creation)
00:41:54 Transcendent Author explained
00:45:07 God not just Author
00:47:11 Foundation question
00:52:12 Omni-atributes addressed
00:55:24 "Omnipotence" specifically
00:58:29 God can not "give" freedom
01:05:05 "Forced" assumption addressed
01:11:11 Meticulous Control or Duelism
01:13:00 Direct and Indirect causes addressed
01:16:46 "CHOICE" critically examined
01:21:00 God's "choice" different from man's "choice"
01:22:35 "choice" IN Finite Realm examined
01:27:13 "choice IN Infinite Realm examined
01:30:42 self-determinism IN finite realm = circular
01:32:06 "reason for choice" = Determinism
01:33:56 Different Circumstances Examined
01:35:45 "God has freewill so I can too" examined
01:39:22 God's choice BEFORE time and IN time
01:43:18 "Choice according to your GREATEST desire"
01:45:19 Can "desires" change... tomorrow?
01:46:50 "Ability to choose among competing desires" examined
01:52:05 Choice thought experiment
01:54:55 "ability to do otherwise" examined
02:04:31 "freewill" equivalent to illusion, magic trick, luck
02:11:53 If "freedom" = doing what you "want"
02:13:11 Believing "freewill" is not stupid
02:17:23 "freewill" assumed without foundation
02:20:37 PROBLEM OF EVIL
02:24:21 what is "evil"/"sin"?
02:26:52 what does "God can not sin" mean?
02:29:30 is God "responsible" for sin?
02:34:43 God the "Author" of sin addressed
02:37:11 emotional arguments addressed
02:40:21 "freewill" cant answer for "evil"
02:42:13 God "gave" freewill examined
02:47:07 "God allows/permits evil" examined
02:50:02 FAIRNESS examined
02:52:30 if God has the power to stop sin examined
02:53:08 RESPONSABILITY turned around
03:00:08 humanistic examples dont apply to God

03:04:16 QUESTIONS FOR FREEWILLERS
3:11:42 QUESTION 1 (If God knows, that by creating you, you will end up in hell, how is he not determined you to end up in hell by creating you?)
3:13:54 obj¹ ▶️“just because God foreknows does not mean he determined it” can not apply to God
3:19:29 obj² metaphysical disconnect argument
3:23:38 obj3 “God can foreknow independent from creating you” examined

3:25:53 QUESTION 1.1 (Why would God create anybody that He 100% knows will end up in hell?)
3:27:05 obj¹ difference between what God commands and what God “wants” to com to pass
3:27:48 example Christ Crucified
3:30:22 example Pharaoh
3:31:15 example joseph

03:32:44 QUESTION 2 (Could God have created [those he knew would end in hell] differently?)
03:35:24 QUESTION 2.5 (If God could… why didn’t He?)

03:38:52 “chooser of your own choices" second-layer fallacy examined
03:42:34 God as Divine Author Chapter/Verse
03:45:04 freewill makes God a "robot"
03:49:10 Molanism "God must deal with the hand dealt" addressed
03:51:36 Calvinism is the only system where God is "free"
03:54:06 ▶️"freewill" can not answer for Adam's fall

03:56:20 QUESTION 3 (If freewill is true why has there never been a sinless human?)
03:57:20 “freewill is necessary for true relationship” examined and refuted
04:00:58 only determinism can answer why no sinless humans?

04:02:15 QUESTION 4 (How does “eternal security” fit in a freewill system?)

04:04:00 QUESTION 5 (How can is be said “God is sending the Gospel” if it is up to the “freewill” of man?/ Who gets credit?)
04:05:44 QUESTION 5.5 (Why does God "send" the Gospel to those he knows will reject it?)

04:08:33 QUESTION 6 (Do you exist because of God’s “choice” or your parent’s “freewill choice”?)

04:12:28 QUESTION 7 (Why do “freewill” proponents say “Lord willing"? James 4:15)

04:15:12 QUESTION 8 (If freewill is true why "pray"?)

04:18:28 QUESTION 9 (How is it “fair” that God chooses when, where, and how to make you?)

04:20:44 QUESTION 1.2 (Questioning Melanism in light of “fairness”)

04:23:24 QUESTION 10 (Which view actually presents God as “bigger/better”?) [Leighton’s “chessboard analogy”]
04:26:31 QUESTION 10.1 (Can God be “bigger” by choosing to “limit” his knowledge to allow for freewill?)
04:29:18 QUESTION 10.2 (How is God being in control of all things a “lesser view”?)

04:32:35 ⭐️QUESTION 11 (Can God determine that you do what you “WANT” to do, and it also be what He “WANTS” you to do?)
04:37:48 ⭐️QUESTION 11 reiterated (Can God determine that you do what He “WANTS” you to do, and it also be what you “WANT” to do?
04:40:00 ⭐⭐️QUESTION 11 If you answer yes this is why you lose the debate.

04:46:30 Conclusion

The Consistent Calvinism Podcast

Timestamp link 04:08:33

QUESTION 6 (Do you exist because of God’s “choice”, or your parent’s “freewill choice”?)

? interesting…
 
Stop diverting and actually address the issue

John 12:40 (ESV)
40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, Lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.”

what does the highlighted clause mean ?

No answer

The word lest ?

Obviously not dealt with either

lest
[lest]

CONJUNCTION
formal


  1. with the intention of preventing (something undesirable); to avoid the risk of.
    "he spent whole days in his room, headphones on lest he disturb anyone"
    • (after a clause indicating fear) because of the possibility of something undesirable happening; in case.
stop diverting and deal with the verse


What was God preventing according to the verse

Why would God blind those who could not see because they were born blind according to Calvinist theology ?

again no answer

BTW them hardening their heart is just as much a problem for your theology

Acts 28:27 —KJV
“For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.”

their heart grew gross over time not a condition from birth and had it not grown gross

lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.”

either way you lose

stop diverting and address the issue which is not Pharaoh
This is an interesting point. How does it fit with this:



"For the creature was made subject to vanity, NOT WILLINGLY, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the BONDAGE of corruption into the glorious LIBERTY of the children of God."

The liberty seems to be from the bondage of corruption, but they didn't get that way willingly which suggests to me that will isn't a factor at all.

How does one choose anything before it has been revealed to them? They can't. They have no choice in the matter, therefore their will to choose isn't involved at all.

By the same token, it stands to reason that those who are about to drown will take hold of whatever they may discover to keep them afloat because they really don't have a choice if they don't want to drown.

If some do want to drown, they aren't likely to notice the life preserver to begin with.
 
3:25:53 QUESTION 1.1 (Why would God create anybody that He 100% knows will end up in hell?)

Timestamp already set just click and watch…



Timestamp Outline for Your convenience!
1.5x Speed recommended. ⚙️

00:00:00 Intro
0:03:22 Properly defining "freewill"
0:06:36 Foundational verses
00:11:40 Addressing Deiesm heresy
00:15:38 Determinism established
00:20:11 …Visual example
00:25:06 Practical applications
00:30:08 Foundation necessary Eph 1:11
00:32:28 Misconceptions (semi-Deism)
00:36:21 Misunderstanding (God's involvement in creation)
00:41:54 Transcendent Author explained
00:45:07 God not just Author
00:47:11 Foundation question
00:52:12 Omni-atributes addressed
00:55:24 "Omnipotence" specifically
00:58:29 God can not "give" freedom
01:05:05 "Forced" assumption addressed
01:11:11 Meticulous Control or Duelism
01:13:00 Direct and Indirect causes addressed
01:16:46 "CHOICE" critically examined
01:21:00 God's "choice" different from man's "choice"
01:22:35 "choice" IN Finite Realm examined
01:27:13 "choice IN Infinite Realm examined
01:30:42 self-determinism IN finite realm = circular
01:32:06 "reason for choice" = Determinism
01:33:56 Different Circumstances Examined
01:35:45 "God has freewill so I can too" examined
01:39:22 God's choice BEFORE time and IN time
01:43:18 "Choice according to your GREATEST desire"
01:45:19 Can "desires" change... tomorrow?
01:46:50 "Ability to choose among competing desires" examined
01:52:05 Choice thought experiment
01:54:55 "ability to do otherwise" examined
02:04:31 "freewill" equivalent to illusion, magic trick, luck
02:11:53 If "freedom" = doing what you "want"
02:13:11 Believing "freewill" is not stupid
02:17:23 "freewill" assumed without foundation
02:20:37 PROBLEM OF EVIL
02:24:21 what is "evil"/"sin"?
02:26:52 what does "God can not sin" mean?
02:29:30 is God "responsible" for sin?
02:34:43 God the "Author" of sin addressed
02:37:11 emotional arguments addressed
02:40:21 "freewill" cant answer for "evil"
02:42:13 God "gave" freewill examined
02:47:07 "God allows/permits evil" examined
02:50:02 FAIRNESS examined
02:52:30 if God has the power to stop sin examined
02:53:08 RESPONSABILITY turned around
03:00:08 humanistic examples dont apply to God

03:04:16 QUESTIONS FOR FREEWILLERS
3:11:42 QUESTION 1 (If God knows, that by creating you, you will end up in hell, how is he not determined you to end up in hell by creating you?)
3:13:54 obj¹ ▶️“just because God foreknows does not mean he determined it” can not apply to God
3:19:29 obj² metaphysical disconnect argument
3:23:38 obj3 “God can foreknow independent from creating you” examined

3:25:53 QUESTION 1.1 (Why would God create anybody that He 100% knows will end up in hell?)
3:27:05 obj¹ difference between what God commands and what God “wants” to com to pass
3:27:48 example Christ Crucified
3:30:22 example Pharaoh
3:31:15 example joseph

03:32:44 QUESTION 2 (Could God have created [those he knew would end in hell] differently?)
03:35:24 QUESTION 2.5 (If God could… why didn’t He?)

03:38:52 “chooser of your own choices" second-layer fallacy examined
03:42:34 God as Divine Author Chapter/Verse
03:45:04 freewill makes God a "robot"
03:49:10 Molanism "God must deal with the hand dealt" addressed
03:51:36 Calvinism is the only system where God is "free"
03:54:06 ▶️"freewill" can not answer for Adam's fall

03:56:20 QUESTION 3 (If freewill is true why has there never been a sinless human?)
03:57:20 “freewill is necessary for true relationship” examined and refuted
04:00:58 only determinism can answer why no sinless humans?

04:02:15 QUESTION 4 (How does “eternal security” fit in a freewill system?)

04:04:00 QUESTION 5 (How can is be said “God is sending the Gospel” if it is up to the “freewill” of man?/ Who gets credit?)
04:05:44 QUESTION 5.5 (Why does God "send" the Gospel to those he knows will reject it?)

04:08:33 QUESTION 6 (Do you exist because of God’s “choice” or your parent’s “freewill choice”?)

04:12:28 QUESTION 7 (Why do “freewill” proponents say “Lord willing"? James 4:15)

04:15:12 QUESTION 8 (If freewill is true why "pray"?)

04:18:28 QUESTION 9 (How is it “fair” that God chooses when, where, and how to make you?)

04:20:44 QUESTION 1.2 (Questioning Melanism in light of “fairness”)

04:23:24 QUESTION 10 (Which view actually presents God as “bigger/better”?) [Leighton’s “chessboard analogy”]
04:26:31 QUESTION 10.1 (Can God be “bigger” by choosing to “limit” his knowledge to allow for freewill?)
04:29:18 QUESTION 10.2 (How is God being in control of all things a “lesser view”?)

04:32:35 ⭐️QUESTION 11 (Can God determine that you do what you “WANT” to do, and it also be what He “WANTS” you to do?)
04:37:48 ⭐️QUESTION 11 reiterated (Can God determine that you do what He “WANTS” you to do, and it also be what you “WANT” to do?
04:40:00 ⭐⭐️QUESTION 11 If you answer yes this is why you lose the debate.

04:46:30 Conclusion

The Consistent Calvinism Podcast
 
3:25:53 QUESTION 1.1 (Why would God create anybody that He 100% knows will end up in hell?)
Why would God create someone just to go to hell?

Why would you assume that “God creates someone just to go to hell”?
Is that your views answer?

Your false assumption is denied by…
“The LORD has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble.” (Pro 16:4)

This predetermined purpose is referring to what within the timeline of creation… and God perfectly knows the results of his own actions.

Even Pharaoh was “made for his purpose” that resulted in him “going to hell”… but this does not justify your assumption that “God created Pharaoh just to go to hell”.

So can you answer the question…

3:25:53 QUESTION 1.1 (Why would God create anybody, like Pharaoh, that He 100% knows will end up in hell?)

Why is the Calvinist the only one that can answer this question with a scripturally justified answer?

 
Why would you assume that “God creates someone just to go to hell”?
Is that your views answer?

Your false assumption is denied by…
“The LORD has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble.” (Pro 16:4)

This predetermined purpose is referring to what within the timeline of creation… and God perfectly knows the results of his own actions.

Even Pharaoh was “made for his purpose” that resulted in him “going to hell”… but this does not justify your assumption that “God created Pharaoh just to go to hell”.

So can you answer the question…



Why is the Calvinist the only one that can answer this question with a scripturally justified answer?

That is the necessary fact of your theology

God predetermined their destiny before they were born

It was all determined

and if you hold Adam and Eve were determined as well in contradiction to historic Calvinists creeds you have God as the author of all sin

Its blasphemy

if you hold they sinned of their own free will all your arguments collapse
 
That is the necessary fact of your theology

God predetermined their destiny before they were born

It was all determined

and if you hold Adam and Eve were determined as well in contradiction to historic Calvinists creeds you have God as the author of all sin

Its blasphemy

if you hold they sinned of their own free will all your arguments collapse

You didn’t watch this timestamp link did you…
03:54:06 "freewill" can not answer for Adam's fall

Your argument has already been answered in the OP.

For your convenience I have already set the timestamp link just click play…



Timestamp Outline for Your convenience!
1.5x Speed recommended. ⚙️

00:00:00 Intro
0:03:22 Properly defining "freewill"
0:06:36 Foundational verses
00:11:40 Addressing Deiesm heresy
00:15:38 Determinism established
00:20:11 …Visual example
00:25:06 Practical applications
00:30:08 Foundation necessary Eph 1:11
00:32:28 Misconceptions (semi-Deism)
00:36:21 Misunderstanding (God's involvement in creation)
00:41:54 Transcendent Author explained
00:45:07 God not just Author
00:47:11 Foundation question
00:52:12 Omni-atributes addressed
00:55:24 "Omnipotence" specifically
00:58:29 God can not "give" freedom
01:05:05 "Forced" assumption addressed
01:11:11 Meticulous Control or Duelism
01:13:00 Direct and Indirect causes addressed
01:16:46 "CHOICE" critically examined
01:21:00 God's "choice" different from man's "choice"
01:22:35 "choice" IN Finite Realm examined
01:27:13 "choice IN Infinite Realm examined
01:30:42 self-determinism IN finite realm = circular
01:32:06 "reason for choice" = Determinism
01:33:56 Different Circumstances Examined
01:35:45 "God has freewill so I can too" examined
01:39:22 God's choice BEFORE time and IN time
01:43:18 "Choice according to your GREATEST desire"
01:45:19 Can "desires" change... tomorrow?
01:46:50 "Ability to choose among competing desires" examined
01:52:05 Choice thought experiment
01:54:55 "ability to do otherwise" examined
02:04:31 "freewill" equivalent to illusion, magic trick, luck
02:11:53 If "freedom" = doing what you "want"
02:13:11 Believing "freewill" is not stupid
02:17:23 "freewill" assumed without foundation
02:20:37 PROBLEM OF EVIL
02:24:21 what is "evil"/"sin"?
02:26:52 what does "God can not sin" mean?
02:29:30 is God "responsible" for sin?
02:34:43 God the "Author" of sin addressed
02:37:11 emotional arguments addressed
02:40:21 "freewill" cant answer for "evil"
02:42:13 God "gave" freewill examined
02:47:07 "God allows/permits evil" examined
02:50:02 FAIRNESS examined
02:52:30 if God has the power to stop sin examined
02:53:08 RESPONSABILITY turned around
03:00:08 humanistic examples dont apply to God

03:04:16 QUESTIONS FOR FREEWILLERS
3:11:42 QUESTION 1 (If God knows, that by creating you, you will end up in hell, how is he not determined you to end up in hell by creating you?)
3:13:54 obj¹ ▶️“just because God foreknows does not mean he determined it” can not apply to God
3:19:29 obj² metaphysical disconnect argument
3:23:38 obj3 “God can foreknow independent from creating you” examined

3:25:53 QUESTION 1.1 (Why would God create anybody that He 100% knows will end up in hell?)
3:27:05 obj¹ difference between what God commands and what God “wants” to com to pass
3:27:48 example Christ Crucified
3:30:22 example Pharaoh
3:31:15 example joseph

03:32:44 QUESTION 2 (Could God have created [those he knew would end in hell] differently?)
03:35:24 QUESTION 2.5 (If God could… why didn’t He?)

03:38:52 “chooser of your own choices" second-layer fallacy examined
03:42:34 God as Divine Author Chapter/Verse
03:45:04 freewill makes God a "robot"
03:49:10 Molanism "God must deal with the hand dealt" addressed
03:51:36 Calvinism is the only system where God is "free"
03:54:06 ▶️"freewill" can not answer for Adam's fall

03:56:20 QUESTION 3 (If freewill is true why has there never been a sinless human?)
03:57:20 “freewill is necessary for true relationship” examined and refuted
04:00:58 only determinism can answer why no sinless humans?

04:02:15 QUESTION 4 (How does “eternal security” fit in a freewill system?)

04:04:00 QUESTION 5 (How can is be said “God is sending the Gospel” if it is up to the “freewill” of man?/ Who gets credit?)
04:05:44 QUESTION 5.5 (Why does God "send" the Gospel to those he knows will reject it?)

04:08:33 QUESTION 6 (Do you exist because of God’s “choice” or your parent’s “freewill choice”?)

04:12:28 QUESTION 7 (Why do “freewill” proponents say “Lord willing"? James 4:15)

04:15:12 QUESTION 8 (If freewill is true why "pray"?)

04:18:28 QUESTION 9 (How is it “fair” that God chooses when, where, and how to make you?)

04:20:44 QUESTION 1.2 (Questioning Melanism in light of “fairness”)

04:23:24 QUESTION 10 (Which view actually presents God as “bigger/better”?) [Leighton’s “chessboard analogy”]
04:26:31 QUESTION 10.1 (Can God be “bigger” by choosing to “limit” his knowledge to allow for freewill?)
04:29:18 QUESTION 10.2 (How is God being in control of all things a “lesser view”?)

04:32:35 ⭐️QUESTION 11 (Can God determine that you do what you “WANT” to do, and it also be what He “WANTS” you to do?)
04:37:48 ⭐️QUESTION 11 reiterated (Can God determine that you do what He “WANTS” you to do, and it also be what you “WANT” to do?
04:40:00 ⭐⭐️QUESTION 11 If you answer yes this is why you lose the debate.

04:46:30 Conclusion

The Consistent Calvinism Podcast
 
But we can EASILY refute your MISINTERPRETATION of Scripture.



First of all, this is NOT about "free will" regarding salvation, it is a letter written to Philemon, asking him to receive Onesimus back, as a brother in Christ, without punishing him for running away. He is hoping that Philemon will do so willingly, although Paul could make him do it.

All this means is that he doesn't want Onesimus to be "coerced" or "forced" to take him back, but to agree with Paul's view.

The Greek word translated as "free will" is "εκουσιος", and simply means "voluntarily":

BDAG:
ἑκούσιος, ία, ιον
(s. next; Soph., Thu. et al.; ins, pap, LXX; TestLevi 9:7; Philo) pert to doing someth. of one’s own volition, voluntary, as a volunteer of backsliders MPol 4 (Zahn’s cj. for ἑαυτοῖς or ἑαυτούς). καθ᾿ ἑκουσίαν [sc. γνώμην]; as opposed to legal compulsion


Mounce Greek Dictionary
ἑκούσιος hekousios voluntary, spontaneous,


Now, you tried to "bury" us in translations that rendered it, "free will". But I noticed that the bulk of them are translations nobody's ever heard of (eg. MRC), and even heretical Bibles known to be inaccurate (eg. NWT).

How do mainstream Bibles render the term?:

But without thy mind would I do nothing; that thy benefit should not be as it were of necessity, but willingly. (KJV)

But without your consent I wanted to do nothing, that your good deed might not be by compulsion, as it were, but voluntary. (NKJV)

But I didn’t want to do anything without your consent. I wanted you to help because you were willing, not because you were forced (NLT)

But I did not want to do anything without your consent, so that any favor you do would not seem forced but would be voluntary. (NIV)

but I preferred to do nothing without your consent in order that your goodness might not be by compulsion but of your own accord. (ESV)

However, without your consent I did not want to do anything, so that your good deed would not be out of compulsion, but from your own willingness. (NET)

and apart from thy mind I willed to do nothing, that as of necessity thy good deed may not be, but of willingness, (YLT)

but I have wished to do nothing without thy mind, that thy good might not be as of necessity but of willingness: (DBY)

But without thy mind I would do nothing; that thy benefit should not be as it were of necessity, but willingly. (WEB)

sine consilio autem tuo nihil volui facere uti ne velut ex necessitate bonum tuum esset sed voluntarium (VUL)


So why didn't you quote any of THESE Bibles, Tom?

"εκούσιας" doesn't mean "free will" in the sense you want to project onto the term.
It simply means "voluntarily", "willingly", "without force", "without coercion".

Seriously .....

Not sure what you guys are arguing about.

If Paul could make him do it ......

Kind of sad.

are you seriously propagating that?
 
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God determined their destiny by creating them. Your view can not escape this fact.

Nonsense

Foreknowledge is not determination

Your view is contrary to historic Calvinist confessions and makes God the author of all sin and a curse upon most of mankind
 
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