It also doesn't provide the Biblical information requested. Interesting behavior for someone who is claiming to be Christian and accusing others based on the Bible, isn't it...
Freemasonry and False Christian Cults with Dr. Shawn Waugh
- Thread starter Septextura
- Start date
Leatherneck0311
Well-known member
What drives you to defend freemasonry when scripture clearly condemns it ? Masons remind me of all those who are trapped by the cunning wiles of Satan in that their life is dedicated to their pet cause and God becomes mere window dressing for their darkness,sadly.
But in all of your posts, you have yet to produce any Bible verses, in or out of context, nor expounded on any, simply made vague claims about basing your post on Biblical teachings. Which is a trait of a cult. On your side, not that of Freemasonry.
Also, what is "an evil cult based on scripture."? I mean, I can see that being used for antimasonry that claims to be Christian, but that would mean you are leaving the teachings of the cult of antimasonry behind and I don't think you are.
Notice that the one defending Christianity against the false teachings of a cult is the Christian who happens to belong to a secular fraternity known as Freemasonry. Which is why I'm more than willing to take this to a Bible study as I've stated repeatedly over different versions of these CARM forums, but those who espouse antimasonry run away from studying the Bible while accusing all who don't slavishly follow their (false) teachings of not being "real christians".
Things that make you go HMMM.
Go for it. Provide the Scriptural proofs to support your points.
I've already pointed out the ones where you are cut'n'pasting others bearing false witness, so you are kind of in the position where a number of the "proofs" you might try to claim (unless you keep ducking studying the Bible, a rather odd position for one who claims to be Christian) don't apply.
OTOH, having seen antimasonic cut'n'paste warriors before, I'm sure you will have several errors in your choice of Scripture as well.
Because Scripture does not condemn Freemasonry in anything other than an individual basis (see Romans 14).
In fact, there is the difference between us, I just cited the relevant Scripture, but in all of your posts, there are all these swelling claims about the Bible condemning Freemasonry, but you haven't provided a single citation. It is just you, like other antimasons who claim to be Christian, spouting off that the Bible condemns Freemasonry without offering any actual Scripture citations to support your beliefs. That is a trait of cults. Then you add in false claims based on the teachings of false teachers (like EMFJ) and expect instant obedience. Again, traits of cults.
Again, I'll correct your error. I'm not here to defend Freemasonry, I'm here to defend Christianity against teachers of false doctrine. "Christian" antimasonry is not Biblical or Christian. It always shows itself to be based on deceit of one form or another. So, tell me, should a Christian ignore those who teach falsehoods and even the doctrines of demons? Because that is what antimasonry that claims to be Christian teaches.
Leatherneck0311
Well-known member
You keep defending freemasonry when scripture clearly warns against it. You have been shown where scripture condemns Masonic rituals (evil) and secret oaths (evil) and yet you ignore the scriptures to defend Freemasonry which speaks volumes about who your god is. I am sure you are familiar with the scripture that says do not cast pearls before pigs.
Wrong, again!
Scripture does not contradict itself. Pay attention to the way that Jesus conducted His ministry:
John 7: 26 And behold, he is speaking openly and they are saying nothing to him! Can it be that the rulers truly know that this man is the Christ? 27 Yet we know where this man is from, but the Christ, whenever he comes—no one knows where he is from!”
28 Then Jesus cried out in the temple courts, teaching and saying, “You both know me and you know where I am from! And I have not come from myself, but the one who sent me is true, whom you do not know. 29 I know him, because I am from him and he sent me.”
30 So they were seeking to seize him, and no one laid a hand on him, because his hour had not yet come. 31 But from the crowd many believed in him and were saying, “Whenever the Christ comes, he will not perform more signs than this man has done, will he?”
In other words, if the message from the works, words miracles were only for a select few, such as the Gnostics, and Masons (which is actually a form of Gnosticism) were meant for the "elite" Jesus would be either a liar or a lunatic because his open teaching is not hidden from anyone
2Peter 1: 16 For we did not make known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ by following ingeniously concocted myths, but by being eyewitnesses of that one’s majesty. 17 For he received honor and glory from God the Father when a voice such as this was brought to him by the Majestic Glory, “This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.” 18 And we ourselves heard this voice brought from heaven when we were with him on the holy mountain, 19 and we possess as more reliable the prophetic word, to which you do well if you pay attention to it as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts, 20 recognizing this above all, that every prophecy of scripture does not come about from one’s own interpretation,
21 for no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men carried along by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.
We both know the origin of the myth of Hyman Abiff, and the "secret password", Shibbileth. You guys concocted it and bastardized it from the original context of those ScripturesWho else, in the presence of John the Baptist, his followers and the followers of Jesus ever heard those words spoken?. And now the followers of your religion are committing blasphemy against Holy Spirit when you falsely attribute "Having your own private interpretation" concerning the words of Scripture, plainly written.
Yeah, I do suppose my words sorta "annoys you off", but I would prefer to have you "annoyed off" by telling you the open truth than to "annoy off Holy Spirit" through committing blasphemy. And are you aware that it is the only one sin that is unforgivable, according Jesus Christ?
Matthew 12: 28 But if I expel demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you! 29 Or how can someone enter into the house of a strong man and steal his property, unless he first ties up the strong man? And then he can thoroughly plunder his house. 30 The one who is not with me is against me, and the one who does not gather with me scatters. 31 For this reason I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven! 32 And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him. But whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him either in this age or in the coming one!
You see, in one very limited sense, giving God a "last name" can, if confessed, be forgiven. But according to Jesus Christ, blasphemy against Holy Spirit cannot be forgiven while on Earth, or in Hell. But again, we are dealing with the words of Jesus Christ, and if you denigrate His words, the words of His Apostle, or the words of His Disciple, and regarding them nothing but "twaddle" upon repentance, confession to God, and godly sorrow, they can be forgiven. Blasphemy against Holy Spirit is forever, and according to the words of Jesus, totally unforgivable.
BTW there is nothing in this post that can be considered a personal attack. However, if it moves you to reconsider your relationship with God, and not GAOTU (it is a non existent Masonic idol) then this post has done its work.
You have Not posted any Christian doctrines and citing the entire chapter of Romans 14 is patently bogus. In the more than 550 words in the chapter, you cannot cite ONE verse that supports your position because you have NOT cited any verse in that chapter that condemns what we believe.
Show us in one of your posts what you previously condemned, them cite that verse. But do not forget about the importance of context,ascited in the first verses:
Romans 14:
1 Now receive the one who is weak in faith, but not for quarrels about opinions. 2 One believes he may eat all things, but the one who is weak eats only vegetables. 3 The one who eats must not despise the one who does not eat, and the one who does not eat must not judge the one who eats, because God has accepted him. 4 Who are you, who passes judgment on the domestic slave belonging to someone else? To his own master he stands or falls, and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
5 One person prefers one day over another day, and another person regards every day alike. Each one must be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 The one who is intent on the day is intent on it for the Lord, and the one who eats eats for the Lord, because he is thankful to God, and the one who does not eat does not eat for the Lord, and he is thankful to God. 7 For none of us lives for himself and none dies for himself. 8 For if we live, we live for the Lord, and if we die, we die for the Lord. Therefore whether we live or whether we die, we are the Lord’s. 9 For Christ died and became alive again for this reason, in order that he might be Lord of both the dead and the living.
10 But why do you judge your brother? Or also, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God. 11 For it is written,
“As I live, says the Lord, every knee will bow to me,
and every tongue will praise God.”
12 So each one of us will give an account concerning himself.
13 Therefore, let us no longer pass judgment on one another, but rather decide this: not to place a cause for stumbling or a temptation before a brother. 14 I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean of itself, except to the one who considers something to be unclean; to that person it is unclean. 15 For if because of food, your brother is grieved, you are no longer living according to love. Do not destroy by your food that person for whom Christ died. 16 Therefore do not let your good be slandered. 17 For the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18 For the one who serves Christ in this way is well-pleasing to God and approved by people.
19 So then, let us pursue ⌞what promotes peace⌟ and ⌞what edifies one another⌟. 20 Do not destroy the work of God on account of food. All things are clean, but it is wrong for the person ⌞who eats and stumbles in the process⌟. 21 It is good not to eat meat or to drink wine or to do anything by which your brother stumbles or is offended or is weakened. 22 The faith that you have, have with respect to yourself before God. Blessed is the one who does not pass judgment on himself by what he approves. 23 But the one who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not do so from faith, and everything that is not from faith is sin.
What shall your reply reveal about the content of your character?
You need a verse condemning antimasonry that claims to be Christian?
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. (Joh 8:44)
These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren. (Pro 6:16-19)
Pretty much the character traits of an antimason who claims to be Christian.
Here is a study lesson on the subject of bearing false witness.
BTW, the only source you will find for that document is the one who typed this reply, but you've seen this before, as well as my lessons on discernment for Christians.
Oh, so now, where are your supposed verses against Freemasonry. Remember they must not only include correct citation of Scripture with explanation of how you think they apply, it must also include and actual issue with Freemasonry that isn't an outright false claim.
A common reference for Romans 14 is the "law of doubtful things", because it provides a framework to deal with peripheral issues by Christians. It is often misquoted, but then you know that since I've shown you that error in the past.
Relevant verses include 4, 10, 12, 14, 22, 23.
That should be enough for you with your claims of judgement. I fairly sure I know where you are going to go with this, but it will be interesting if you use the tactics of those who are against the Bible and Christianity.
Looks like you want Character Counts to be restarted, because it is all about the lack of character by antimasons who claim to be Christian... well, at least lack of a Christian character...
For example, when asked to cite Scripture supporting your antimasonic claims, you flee into hurling accusations. Which is a specific tactic for certain groups. Interesting.
Pray tell us all what Scripture not contradicting itself have to do with a poster claiming to be able to know what God tells others? This is the second time you have hurled this accusation in defense of what is contradicted by Scripture. Heh, and you accuse me of picking random stuff off the barn floor and hurling it at the walls.
Accusing others of what one is guilty of, a telling trait.
So, where do you get that Freemasonry is a form of Gnosticism? I have no problem with the statement that some Masons follow Gnosticism in their personal religious beliefs, I've read some of their works. However, the religious beliefs of individuals, Masons or not, are their own, as Freemasonry openly states.
Okay, this is a nothing burger, unless it reveals your personal belief in yourself as one of the "elite".
Freemasonry is not Christianity. You keep making this mistake. Do you lack the capacity to understand the difference between secular and religious?
Freemasonry is not a religion, no matter how much you keep regurgitating this falsehood.
Except you haven't proven anything as a "private interpretation" in respect to Christianity. This is why you are scared to openly engage in a Bible study on this subject, because I've proven repeatedly in the past that antimasons who claim to be Christian flee from Scripture. Why?
Well, you've just covered it in these two snips you posted. Doesn't matter how valid they are to the point you are trying to make, because you included a false witness in your accusation against Freemasonry.
Freemasonry isn't a religion, so it cannot be a form of Gnosticism, at least not religious Gnosticism. You would have a better chance of going for philosophical Gnosticism, but even then, you'd be incorrect.
Freemasonry isn't a religion, so since it isn't making religious claims, then if it chooses to use Bible passages as a backdrop for some of the lessons it teaches what we see is more an artifact of the age of Freemasonry because it was something in common usage centuries ago. Less so today, but still visible in media presentations. Which actually makes your claim not only wrong on a religious basis, but also out of context in a historical basis.
What "open truth"? Whatever you claim it is, it certainly isn't Biblical and you've been shown twice to be in error on your claims so far this post, but let's see what you have for us now.
Relevance? I'm not the one caught out bearing false witness twice in this post. So, show were you think I'm blaspheming against the Holy Spirit here, besides "John t sez". The kind of logic you are using covers multiple cult traits from the CARM cult list.
So, what is this "giving God a "last name"" thing?
I'm skipping over the obvious you learned a new word reference.
Simply put, until you get some kind of relevance, you are just tossing out a few verses, highlighting parts of them and then launching into a rambling diatribe with no actual target. You need to be specific and not vague.
Actually, there are some, but I merely consider those to be drive-bys mostly. On that subject, you have a fatal misunderstanding between invalid and valid ad hominem or "personal attacks".
Nope, my relationship with God is based on the Bible, not the false teachings of antimasons who claim to be Christian.
Which is why, I have no problem stating that the God in the Bible is the Creator of all things and calling Him as such. It is also how I know the teachings of "christian" antimasonry is false, because it requires denial of God as the Designer or Architect of the universe.
(As an aside, do antimasons realize how stupid turning an acronym into a name sounds? Then claiming it is a special name of a mythical deity that nobody claims exists as a specific named deity except the antimasons themselves?)
Yes, I'm sure that converting someone to false beliefs is a core teaching of antimasonry that claims to be Christian, but absolutely isn't.
WHICH SCRIPTURES?!? You haven't listed any with your exposition.
You haven't shown how any Masonic rituals are evil. (yes, I'm ready to correct you if you get into the forgeries and other grifts.)
You haven't shown how any Masonic obligations are evil.
You haven't shown where I ignore any Scriptures.
I didn't get into this to defend Freemasonry, it was to defend Christianity against the cult that antimasonry that claims to be Christian is.
Prime evidence of this being posts like this where vague and amorphous references to "scripture" abound with nothing concrete about them. It lets those who use this tactic engage in plausible deniability with having to stake out a position that can be refuted.
And we have the usual retreat setup, before yet another antimason who claims to be Christian cannot handle actually using the Bible and fleeing.
From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling; Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm. (1Ti 1:6-7)
I really cannot post about what you imagine. I can post about that which I have knowledge. The answer you seek is in my post to which you responded. Perhaps you may want to call up a fellow lodge member to read it to you slowly.
Go and read or have your Masonic buddy read my post to you. The post to which I refer you obviously did not read contains "secret knowledge words" that for some people kick in the stipulations of ancient blood oaths.
WIFF!
You keep on missing the point or else attempt to obfuscate what I actually posted about. Ask your mason buddy to read that paragraph to which I replied slowly.
If you really want to discuss what I posted, THEN DO IT. However I do not respond to insipid ad hominems having nothing to do with freemassonry. If you do not want to discuss what I say about free masonry on this board, then go post on an another CARM forum.
Bottom line is that despite your ineffectual protestations, and attempts of redefinitions you have the Bible of SOME OTHER "religious book, on your ALTAR, have an official person called "worshipful..." use many religious terms or symbols having religious meanings and then have the audacity to attempt to have others believe that you are not "religious". As long as you have those religious terms and symbols, your masons are attempting to deceive others, and I will not stop exposing those tactics of the masons, which of course make the colors the perceptions of non-masons about your organization quite dark.
Post more misinformation, and I will correct the distortions using Scripture as much as possible common sense to show the patterns of ministry that Jesus used.
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Leatherneck0311
Well-known member
I have seen you ignore plenty scripture to stay in your cult. You are a strong defender for freemasonry and a lousy defender for Christ.
Really, which Scriptures? I've been begging you and your fellow travelers to post them and expound upon them to prove your case against Freemasonry. If I posted the same sentence as you did and subjected "antifreemasonry" for "freemasonry", mine would be more valid since I've at least actually cited Scripture and have not made up positions antimasons who claim to be Christian hold.
Well, perhaps you could explain what the clear words of the post mean instead of trying to vaguely handwave and do some pseudo-mystical claptrap from an Asian martial arts movie.
Now there we see an actual personal insult instead of addressing the argument. Thanks for posting an actual example of fallacious ad hominem.
1. You ducked answering by refusing to discuss the actual issue (that someone claimed they knew what God said to me) and then claiming that there is some hidden meaning I must ponder in your answer. (ignoring the issue)
2. You claimed I am too stupid to be able to understand what you typed. (attacking the person)
Oh, and that is how you demonstrate a logical fallacy.
I did and you ignored my reply with making vague accusations. Amusing how you claim about all these "secret words" when they can be found to be read in any library, somehow miss that fact that any such words are related to an allegorical teaching in a SECULAR setting, not a RELIGIOUS one.
Oh, and since you led off with it, I'll repeat the proof:
Now there we see an actual personal insult instead of addressing the argument. Thanks for posting an actual example of fallacious ad hominem.
1. You ducked answering by refusing to discuss the actual issue (that someone claimed they knew what God said to me) and then claiming that there is some hidden meaning I must ponder in your answer. (ignoring the issue)
2. You claimed I am too stupid to be able to understand what you typed. (attacking the person)
Oh, and that is how you demonstrate a logical fallacy.
You are projecting. I've given replies. You might validly and honestly ask for further clarification or actually honestly address my reply, but given the history of our interactions, I doubt there will be either.
However, YET AGAIN(!), I will give you the chance to address this issue. So, where in my post do you think I'm missing the point? Please, show us exactly where this great error is so it can be fixed. I am more than willing to correct an error if you find one since I do not follow the cultish practice of following the Big Lie propaganda tactics.
In fact, I honestly noted that the writings of some Individual Masons show signs of philosophical Gnosticism that perhaps means they subscribe to a religious Gnosticism. However, to claim that transfers to the entire group is like claiming the (false) teachings of some individuals that claim to be Christian (and aren't) apply to all of Christianity and/or the Christian Church.
Refusing to directly address that point is somewhat less than honest.
So, for the third time in one post:
Now there we see an actual personal insult instead of addressing the argument. Thanks for posting an actual example of fallacious ad hominem.
1. You ducked answering by refusing to discuss the actual issue (that someone claimed they knew what God said to me) and then claiming that there is some hidden meaning I must ponder in your answer. (ignoring the issue)
2. You claimed I am too stupid to be able to understand what you typed. (attacking the person)
Oh, and that is how you demonstrate a logical fallacy.
What ad hominems? Show them and explain why they are fallacious ad hominems.
Note that truthful statements, even if someone considers them personally insulting, are not fallacious unless they are unrelated to the topic under discussion.
For example, the simple statement that you personally, the poster with the screen name John t, has a habit of making unsupported accusations without providing any evidence or proof, (with the fairly obvious intent to avoid replying to actual issues) might be considered personally insulting by you personally. However, by pointing to the quoted statement by you above, where you make a spurious accusation of "ad hominem" without ever providing proof, shows evidence that this is a statement of truth. As does the fact that I have many, many copies of posts where that behavior has been repeated over the years and versions of the CARM forums if I need to provide further proof.
That makes it a relevant statement of fact, unless you can prove how it does not apply to the subject. (Heh, refusing to reply to posts not applying to the subject under discussion while making vague unsubstantiated accusations considered as a "personal insult". ROFL. LOL. ROFL.)
Silly rabbit, the Freemasonry subforum is the place to discuss Freemasonry. IMO, it keeps the antimasons who claim to be Christian here and not spewing their antimasonic claptrap in other CARM forums and disrupting discussions there.
That is one of the best things about the CARM forums, even if there has been a bit of a change in the weather since the loss of Diane S, the foundations of the standards set remain strong.
Ineffectual? Amusing claim considering you are afraid to address the issues, especially your confusion about the difference between religious and secular and instead make vague and unsupported accusations as excuses to why you cannot engage logically and critically. I've only seen a Bible as a symbol of the Volume of Sacred Law in lodges. Hint, hint, the key word there is SYMBOL. Since Freemasonry is a secular fraternity, it has no religious teachings outside of those to be found in philosophy (IOW, secular) based teachings.
BIG HONKING HINT: Freemasonry appears to have developed in the British Isles starting sometime in the medieval period. I know I've pointed this one out multiple times and I believe a number of them to you personally, but here is what Merriam Webster online has to say:
Definition of worshipful
1a. archaic : NOTABLE, DISTINGUISHEDb. chiefly British —used as a title for various persons or groups of rank or distinction
Hint: It comes from worship, which is defined as: "deserving honor or respect, of noble character, worthy of veneration," by the same source.
So, the silly claims about the use of "worshipful" are put to rest, YET AGAIN(!). In fact, it could be said that by the repeated use of this claim, totally out of context in several ways, counts directly as a deliberately deceptive claim to provoke emotional outrage.
Which religious phrases and symbols outside of the bounds of intellectual and/or philosophical lessons are you referring to? Big Hint: I can post my teaching on symbols again if you have forgotten it, but the TLDR version is that symbols are defined by the user of them, not someone outside making things up. For example, the Cross can be a symbol of the sacrifice of Christ, or it can be a Babylonian symbol with references to relations between a sky deity and an earth deity...
So, you have so far exposed nothing except your own beliefs that are factually incorrect with regards to Freemasonry, as illustrated above in your wild false accusations that have been refuted above and your ongoing inability to recognize the difference between religious and secular.
Well, given I just showed a whole bunch of your claims to be less than factual, if I was reading this, I'd wonder why the one claiming to speak for Jesus from the antimasonic side cannot get their facts straight and constantly duck directly replies to posts while claiming to be so righteous.
I mean, you cited two bits of Scripture with great swelling claims and I punctured both of them quite simply by pointing out where you:
A. Openly and obviously confused secular with religious
B. Falsely tried to make possible truthful statements about individual beliefs apply to an organization that does not speak to such individual beliefs
And then, as predicted by that some reply where I did the above, you have now fled from discussing this issue Scripturally and, quite frankly, given the usual hand waving and vague unsupported accusations above, discussing it rationally either.
This is going to be a fun one for the archives.