Freemasonry and False Christian Cults with Dr. Shawn Waugh

[kamaeq]

So, the former FMs who spoke on those shows were all liars ?

A quick skim found one that was easy to spot. The claim being that the Bible always refers to God by name (how JWish) and never by the generic term of "Deity", but then "God" is a generic term (the translation of the Arabic word "Allah" is "God") as are many others. The former Freemason, Jack Harris claims that the Bible doesn't speak of God in generic terms like "Deity", but:

Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious. For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you. God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
(Act 17:22-31)

There is no "name of God" listed in one of the greatest sermons in the world, instead there are several titles of Deity and only one mention of Christ, but then Christ is God since Christians aren't polytheists.

Note that Freemasonry holds a philosophical position on religion, not a religious one. Philosophically, one can show that the creation declares the Creator (stated in both Old & New Testaments) without having to give a name to that Creator. Freemasonry, as an organization, does not "accept" any specific religious figure(s), it simply declines to decide. That is left up to the individual Mason to define for himself according to his own faith.

 

[John t]

Before anyone tries to imagine "any Bible believing church teaching stuff like this", perhaps you could provide us with the reason why you think any "Bible believing church" should "teach stuff like this".
Perhaps you think "Bible believing" churches are fraternities or sororities? It appears so from your comment.

Big Hint: They are NOT fraternal organizations. They are not Scouting. They are not sports fan clubs. They are not drinking clubs.

You assume much about my post, and ALL of it is wrong.

Try to read again what I wrote because it is consistent with my sig lines. If you do not understand it, ask me to clarify, K?

 

[kamaeq]

You assume much about my post, and ALL of it is wrong.

Try to read again what I wrote because it is consistent with my sig lines. If you do not understand it, ask me to clarify, K?

Well the only thing you posted for yourself was:

Can you find a Bible Believing church teaching stuff like this?

Then you linked to an Ephesians5-11 document (and I can post at least a half dozen documents where I show that E5-11 makes false statements and claims from a Christian perspective).
So, my previous reply was correct and I agree, your sig is absolutely correct in its statements, like your former four axioms of apologetics one. So, how about you explain how your one sentence fallacious statement implying that any "Bible Believing church" would teach something from Freemasonry.

I assume we are going to go back to the typical pattern of you never answering the clarifying questions asked of you, a.k.a. Never admitting a mistake. That would be a great place to start actually, why don't you explain why you think ANY Bible believing church would teach the cited Masonic ritual. That would be amusing.

Or, as I said, continue with zero response posts like the one I'm replying too that hint at your "special knowledge". I can still quote the CARM document on certain groups' traits at that kind of behavior.

(sigh), back to having to archive responses again for honesty's sake.

 

[John t]

Then you linked to an Ephesians5-11 document (and I can post at least a half dozen documents where I show that E5-11 makes false statements and claims from a Christian perspective

Y A W N

Nothing new. So you condemn all of Ephesians 5:11 group as being false teachers but you do not provide an example of ANYTHING that I posted in this post https://forums.carm.org/threads/fre...ian-cults-with-dr-shawn-waugh.376/#post-21015 as being inaccurate. That is using the logical error called "poisoning the well".

Because the god of this world (Satan) has blinded you to supernatural things, you have no idea of what the Bible teaches, and how to be saved from the second death, which is forever. As the rich man found out, hell is a very painful place to be.

2 Corinthians 4:​

3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled only to those who are perishing.​

4 In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.​

5 For what we proclaim is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, with ourselves as your servants for Jesus' sake.​

​

I present to you truth, and really, in one way, it does not matter if that Ephesians 5:11 group does makes an error. What REALLY DOES MATTER is your life after this life. It is not gained by reciting arcane rituals, knowing secret hand shakes or secret passwords. It is founded upon the Atonement of Jesus Christ, and the sufficiency of it to permit all who trustingly believe in it to live forever in heaven with Jesus. So far, I have seen no evidences of that in any of the posts we shared over the years. And on that basis, it is my opinion that you are not a born-again Christian.

THAT is what truly matters.

 

[kamaeq]

Y A W N

Nothing new. So you condemn all of Ephesians 5:11 group as being false teachers but you do not provide an example of ANYTHING that I posted in this post https://forums.carm.org/threads/fre...ian-cults-with-dr-shawn-waugh.376/#post-21015 as being inaccurate. That is using the logical error called "poisoning the well".

Because the god of this world (Satan) has blinded you to supernatural things, you have no idea of what the Bible teaches, and how to be saved from the second death, which is forever. As the rich man found out, hell is a very painful place to be.

2 Corinthians 4:​

3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled only to those who are perishing.​

4 In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.​

5 For what we proclaim is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, with ourselves as your servants for Jesus' sake.​

​

I present to you truth, and really, in one way, it does not matter if that Ephesians 5:11 group does makes an error. What REALLY DOES MATTER is your life after this life. It is not gained by reciting arcane rituals, knowing secret hand shakes or secret passwords. It is founded upon the Atonement of Jesus Christ, and the sufficiency of it to permit all who trustingly believe in it to live forever in heaven with Jesus. So far, I have seen no evidences of that in any of the posts we shared over the years. And on that basis, it is my opinion that you are not a born-again Christian.

THAT is what truly matters.

Of course there is nothing new, we are still stuck at you proving why a Christian church would teach something from a secular fraternity, to which you still haven't provided an answer...

Yep, we are back to a failure to answer the questions.

No, my original post totally pointed out the irrelevance of your reposted E5-11 document and single sentence comment.

You failed in this post to "If you do not understand it, ask me to clarify, K?". I did, you didn't. Instead you post a rant about E5-11 being right even if they are "wrong in a few details" and make a big deal about it being "poisoning the well".

Guess what, you 100%, totally, absolutely and completely missed the point (yet again) of my original reply to your one sentence comment ("Can you find a Bible Believing church teaching stuff like this?"). Right or wrong, the entire quote bit in your original post has no relevance to the teachings of Christianity. Your comment claims otherwise and I proved it wrong in my reply.

So, now we have, from you, a reply that falsely accuses me of "not understanding" without you providing any clarification of why a Christian church would teach ANY fraternal order's rituals. You also claim that you will clarify if asked why your claim about churches teaching stuff from a secular fraternity was relevant. In your next reply, quoted at the top, you failed to do so again.

You claim to know that the "god of this world" has blinded me and I don't know what the Bible teaches. Then go on a rant based on your unBiblical accusation. UnBiblical? Why, yes it is.
The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings. (Jer 17:9-10)

Only God can know the heart of any man. Those men who claim otherwise, as you just did in your post, are claiming to have the power of God and therefore claiming to be equal to God. You, neighbor are not equal to God. Your words are not to be trusted over those of God:
Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD. For he shall be like the heath in the desert, and shall not see when good cometh; but shall inhabit the parched places in the wilderness, in a salt land and not inhabited. (Jer 17:5-6)

I present to you truth, and really, in one way, it does not matter if that Ephesians 5:11 group does makes an error. What REALLY DOES MATTER is your life after this life. It is not gained by reciting arcane rituals, knowing secret hand shakes or secret passwords. It is founded upon the Atonement of Jesus Christ, and the sufficiency of it to permit all who trustingly believe in it to live forever in heaven with Jesus. So far, I have seen no evidences of that in any of the posts we shared over the years. And on that basis, it is my opinion that you are not a born-again Christian.

No, you have repeatedly presented that which is not the truth (John 8:44). You have repeatedly claimed that I (and all other regular Masons) must perform the work of leaving Freemasonry to be "really saved" by your teaching (Romans 11:6, Ephesians 2:8-9). You have repeatedly rejected all evidence that Freemasonry does not teach any plan of salvation. You have repeatedly contradicted what Scripture teaches in repeating the doctrines of antimasonry that claims to be Christian. IIRC, I have a copy of the post a few versions of these forums back when you uses the "4 Axioms of Apologetics" as a sig, where I showed how you broke all four of them in your zeal for antimasonry. (Yes, I have copies of the posts, I have to maintain them for reasons that you, I and another know.)

Oh, and thank God your opinion AS A MAN has absolutely NOTHING to do with my salvation through and by Jesus Christ, my Lord and Savior.

There you go, I have provided you with Scripture to use as a starting point to refute a number of the points I just made. Let's see if you can actually do so as a Christian apologist and Bible scholar. Maybe you will be the first ever.

Or, you know, just to clear this up, you can finally actually explain why a "Bible believing church" would teach that stuff.

Oh wait... Don't tell me... You actually got confused (or were deliberately confusing) about the difference between a Christian church and a secular fraternity? Trying to make the claim that if a church doesn't teach it, it shouldn't be taught? edit

I'll avoid that conclusion on the grounds that it would actually be insulting, not the usual snowflake "he hurt my widdle feelings by proving me wrong" faux injury.

 

[Septextura]

The Roman Catholic Military origin of Freemasonry and Luciferian Doctrines in brief explained in this video.

 

[DeSanto]

Fritz Springmeier

 

[kamaeq]

The Roman Catholic Military origin of Freemasonry and Luciferian Doctrines in brief explained in this video.

Little mixed up in there. The guy appears to be supporting karma and reincarnation as the opposition to the "Luciferian Doctrine", while still making the common error that Scottish Rite degree numbers are relevant to the Grand Lodges. Realize that all of the side degrees in Freemasonry (Scottish Rite, York Rite, Eastern Star, Shriners being the best known) rely totally on the permission of the Grand Lodge (first three degrees, top level "Master Mason") to even exist in a Grand Lodge's geographical territory. Which is why in some areas these side bodies don't exist.

Add into this the entire "Lucifer" thing is a mixture of a common misinterpretation/mistranslation of a single Bible passage (Isaiah 14) where God's judgement on a Babylonian king became, under Catholic (and passed on to many Protestant groups) teachings, became a judgement on Satan. The problem with that is that the word Lucifer refers to the planet Venus or "the bright and morning star" or "light bringer", which are also used as titles for Jesus...

Strikes a serious truth in there that without the fear of God, then men start thinking to themselves that they are like unto God and start making their own idols to worship, but all that is addressed in the Bible.

I don't see this as a big thing on the crusading orders themselves except that they enabled a freer flow of trade and ideas from the area, including reintroduction of lost books from ancient authors that had been preserved by the Islamic world. This did lead to the beginnings of a scientific and philosophical resurgence, until it was nipped in the bud by the start of the Renaissance and it all had to be "rediscovered".

I'd class this as a "drive by", since the guy does not appear to be actually antimasonic, just putting the shot in to sell his particular theory and the truth is, pushing antimasonry for profit has been a grift for over a century, probably over two. Look at it this way, the guy incorrectly translates "New Secular Order" or "New Order of the Secular World" as "New World Order" as is commonly done.