Galatians 2:20: was Paul living w/christ or hung on a cross?

Sure, man. Whatever you say.

Jesus Christ believed Abel was real (Matt 23:35; Luke 11:51), the writer of Hebrews believed Abel was real (Heb 11:4).

Abel was the man Adam's son, not "a living celestial or cosmic Adam."
Teachers can use fictional, mythical stories for instruction, like a parable was used by the gospel Jesus for instruction. It does not mean the characters in the story, eg., the rich man (Luke 16:19) is an actual historical person who saw Lazarus in hell. C’mon…I know you know this…deep down you have got to know this.
 
Teachers can use fictional, mythical stories for instruction, like a parable was used by the gospel Jesus for instruction. It does not mean the characters in the story, eg., the rich man (Luke 16:19) is an actual historical person who saw Lazarus in hell. C’mon…I know you know this…deep down you have got to know this.
Yes, parables are stories and can use fictional characters. But there is no hint in the Bible that Adam was not an actual person, the first man created by God.
 
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Yes, parables are stories and can use fictional characters. But there is no hint in the Bible that Adam was not an actual person, the first man created by God.
You claim that there is “No hint” of a parabolic literary style regarding the biblical creation, despite talking snakes, magical fruit, angels with flaming swords, etc. I dont believe you and neither does God. You are smarter than you pretend to be.
 
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You claim that there is “No hint” of a parabolic literary style regarding the biblical creation,
That's not what I said. But I do believe Adam was the first man, created by God.

despite talking snakes, magical fruit, angels with flaming swords, etc. I dont believe you and neither does God.
lol. You're speaking for God now?

You are smarter than you pretend to be.
Perhaps you're not as smart as you think you are.
 
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Except Paul never read or heard of the Gospel stories, for they were written long after his death. The GoJohn possibly written as late as the second century. so it is impossible that the Gospel stories served as context for Paul’s letters. What logically would serve as context to his letters is the pre-christian writings of the Essenes and the Nasaroens, Philo, and others. Taken together these pre-christian records paint an entirely different history and cultural context for the Jewish-christian sect from that held by traditional christianity. The Roman church subsequently suppressed and destroyed the historical facts in order to promote their own version of christianity. One that never happened.

The Gospel stories are esoteric stories, not historical events. Archaeological and critical scholarship have demonstrated this, yet the clergy keep teaching the same ol’ stuff as if it is history. The amazing thing is that Paul’s letters make more sense in light of the pre-christian writings. Logically that should work that way if christianity in fact developed from jewish-christianity existing up to 200 BC. IOW christianity had already been around at least a hundred years before Paul was even born making Paul’s anointed Yeshua likely the leader of the Essenes at Qumran. Talmud and dead sea scrolls supports this conclusion.

We can only understand Paul’s letters in light of the pre-christian writings which provide the cultural, linguistic, and religious context. Something the catholic church (and orthodoxy) continues to ignore, probably because they suppressed it many years ago.
You have no idea why you are wrong, do you?
 
You have no idea why you are wrong, do you?
What archaeological evidence, critical biblical scholarship, or rational reason suggests I am wrong? I have no interest in opinion only, tradition only, and ad hominem. They have all failed as an argument.

So tell me how I am wrong as long as it is not opinion, tradition or ad hominem.
 
That's not what I said. But I do believe Adam was the first man, created by God.


lol. You're speaking for God now?
Don’t be so dramatic! I presume everything humans know then God knows too. We have made no discoveries that surprised God. I dont imagine him going, Oh, planes can fly?! What a surprise.

Therefore, if biblical scholarship demonstrates the biblical creation myth is based on the Sumerian creation myth, eg., Enuma Elish, written in allegory then God already knew that. Furthermore, I was being courteous when I claimed you were smarter than you pretend, but you are free to prove me wrong.

Perhaps you're not as smart as you think you are.
 
Except Paul never read or heard of the Gospel stories
No.
1 I want you to know, brothers and sisters, that the gospel I preached is not of human origin. 12 I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.
Supported by his events in Acts.

Why dont you just stick to imagining God supports same sex acts?
 
No.
1 I want you to know, brothers and sisters, that the gospel I preached is not of human origin. 12 I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.
Supported by his events in Acts.

Why dont you just stick to imagining God supports same sex acts?
The Greek word for “Gospel” used by Paul means “Good News”. King James translated it to “Godspel” which means God-story. So nobody denies Paul is preaching good news. It does not mean as you imagine that he is preaching FROM the written “Gospels”: GoMark, GoLuke, etc. C’mon you have no idea what you are talking about and you want to correct me. Maybe you should do a little more homework before condemning others.
 
The Greek word for “Gospel” used by Paul means “Good News”. King James translated it to “Godspel” which means God-story. So nobody denies Paul is preaching good news. It does not mean as you imagine that he is preaching FROM the written “Gospels”: GoMark, GoLuke, etc. C’mon you have no idea what you are talking about and you want to correct me. Maybe you should do a little more homework before condemning others.
You said Paul never heard or read the gospel stories. According to the epistles by Paul, Paul received his revelation from Jesus Himself as backed up in Acts. Would the revelation of Jesus be the gospel stories in your thinking?

Also, since when was criticising or correcting someone, condemning them? Do you feel condemned by the gospel?
 
What archaeological evidence, critical biblical scholarship, or rational reason suggests I am wrong? I have no interest in opinion only, tradition only, and ad hominem. They have all failed as an argument.

So tell me how I am wrong as long as it is not opinion, tradition or ad hominem.
You can answer the question yourself by answering a simple question.

Where did Paul's gospel come from?
 
Romans 6:6 Were we “living” with christ or were we hung on a cross?

If my OP is correct that the Greek word “stauros” used by Paul is a metaphor for ‘standing’, ‘living’, or ‘spiritually awake’
You have provided no proof for your contentions. To talk about the "patristic fathers" inventing Christ's crucifixion is absurd, given that by AD70, the Christian faith had spread throughout the world, as Paul infers.

(versus lying, dead, or asleep) then Romans 6:6 should make more sense when translated in that way. Arguably, it does.

“We know that our old Man [Adam] was crucified [alive] with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin.”
When Paul intends to refer to Adam, he does refer to Adam, but he doesn't refer to Adam in Rom 6:6, but to the old pre-repentant, disobedient, human nature enslaved to sin. You cannot insert "Adam" in place of "[old man] as it refers to each person's unregenerate disobedient human nature having been crucified with Christ.

I understand you have not yet discerned that Christ only lives with those who repent and keep Christ's words? ConsiderJhn 14:23 and the conditions required for Christ to live in a man i.e. "if a man keeps my words." Therefore what Paul in Rom 6:6 is saying makes perfect sense with its literal rendition.

But first, one must know the cultural and religious context pertaining to who or what Adam is because Paul is likely writing to those Jewish-christians in Rome familiar with the cult of the heavenly Man (Adam) taught by the Essenes and/or Nasaroeans. Per Lady Drower,

“The central cult of both [Nasoraeans and Elkasaites] is the Heavenly Man, Adam. In the secret scrolls the ‘false prophet’ [alleged by Hippolytus] of the Elkasaites can be recognized as the Nasoraean Adam Kasai—no human but Man, Anthropos, the Son of Man, the Son of God; El Kasai. In his lower aspect he is the Demiurge, creator of ‘worlds of illusion, seven to his right and seven to his left’. In his higher and divine aspect he is Mankind anointed and crowned, priest and king, an image of the divine kingship. Above all, he is a sacramental symbol of union and resurrection: through the mystic recreation of his cosmic body, the departed soul receives its spiritual body.” (ibid, pg 97)
What's this got to do with Christianity?


Therefore, Paul is describing the celestial Adam who died from before the foundation of our world (Rev. 13:8) and whose body of light transformed into lifeless matter. Subsequently, the moral consciousness which was once alive in the past, became alive in the present in us, especially, in Yeshua, the one who reminded humanity of its celestial source. Because the sacrament of baptism represents his cosmic death and resurrection then it also applicable to us as well, for we have always existed in his body even before the Big Bang when he was alive.
What's this got to do with Christianity?

Returning to Romans 6:6, Paul is indicating that we were alive when Adam was alive as the cosmic son, and we died with him when he died at the foundation of our world (ie., the Big Bang), BUT when moral consciousness became alive in humanity, especially, in Yeshua, then the Son of God became alive again. That is US! —Cosmic Adam in his lower aspect.
As you yourself inferred, this is all about "cults."

I don’t expect you to understand this on the first pass through because you first have to unlearn the errors filling your head. The errors taught by the Catholic church. Simply, Paul is NOT talking about the human Adam in the Bible, but about the living celestial or cosmic Adam.
There is no "celestial Adam" in the bible. It is the stuff of cults. Jesus became a life giving Spirit.

Paul even explicitly states that the Biblical Adam is a “type” (Romans 5:14), therefore, not an actual historic human! Again, the Biblical Adam is a TYPE, and types are NOT historical persons.
Biblical types are very much historical persons or things i.e. "ensamples". You are deceived. It is the antitype that may not be historical, e.g. if it remains future. But here Christ has come, so the antitype, the 2nd Adam, is historical. Both the type and antitype are historical.

A biblical type is not fictional, but always factual. The original Adam can be located as living in Eden, somewhere between the Black Sea and the Caspian Sea circa 5000BC.

It is a fictional human for instructional purposes only. We-were-misled, but archaeology, critical scholarship, and comparative religion are giving us a chance to learn the truth. Don’t waste it. It may never come again.
You sound like the peddler of a cult.
 
You can answer the question yourself by answering a simple question.

Where did Paul's gospel come from?
Really? That’s the best you got?

Let’s see, he was a Pharisee who converted to the Essenes who were led by the Teacher of Righteousness who lived around 100 BC and whom the Talmud calls Yeshua whose community wrote the Dead Sea Scrolls which parallel the tenets in Paul’s epistles. Hmmm….Nope, cannot figure out where Paul got his information about the anointed Yeshua who a sect of Jews were following, who called themselves “the Way” and practiced the sacraments of the Lord’s supper and baptism well BEFORE the first century. Nope, cannot figure that one out. A complete mystery. (More sarcasm)

The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field, which a man found and covered up. Then in his joy he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field. (Matt. 13:44)​
 
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You have provided no proof for your contentions. To talk about the "patristic fathers" inventing Christ's crucifixion is absurd, given that by AD70, the Christian faith had spread throughout the world, as Paul infers.


When Paul intends to refer to Adam, he does refer to Adam, but he doesn't refer to Adam in Rom 6:6, but to the old pre-repentant, disobedient, human nature enslaved to sin. You cannot insert "Adam" in place of "[old man] as it refers to each person's unregenerate disobedient human nature having been crucified with Christ.

I understand you have not yet discerned that Christ only lives with those who repent and keep Christ's words? ConsiderJhn 14:23 and the conditions required for Christ to live in a man i.e. "if a man keeps my words." Therefore what Paul in Rom 6:6 is saying makes perfect sense with its literal rendition.


What's this got to do with Christianity?



What's this got to do with Christianity?


As you yourself inferred, this is all about "cults."


There is no "celestial Adam" in the bible. It is the stuff of cults. Jesus became a life giving Spirit.


Biblical types are very much historical persons or things i.e. "ensamples". You are deceived. It is the antitype that may not be historical, e.g. if it remains future. But here Christ has come, so the antitype, the 2nd Adam, is historical. Both the type and antitype are historical.

A biblical type is not fictional, but always factual. The original Adam can be located as living in Eden, somewhere between the Black Sea and the Caspian Sea circa 5000BC.


You sound like the peddler of a cult.
You have been brain-washed into myths and superstitions and lack critical thinking skills. Hopeless.
 
Really? That’s the best you got?

Let’s see, he was a Pharisee who converted to the Essenes who were led by the Teacher of Righteousness who lived around 100 BC and whom the Talmud calls Yeshua whose community wrote the Dead Sea Scrolls which parallel the tenets in Paul’s epistles. Hmmm….Nope, cannot figure out where Paul got his information about the anointed Yeshua who a sect of Jews were following, who called themselves “the Way” and practiced the sacraments of the Lord’s supper and baptism well BEFORE the first century. Nope, cannot figure that one out. A complete mystery. (More sarcasm)

The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field, which a man found and covered up. Then in his joy he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field. (Matt. 13:44)​
Not the best I got. I could explain Scripture to you, and perhaps I should, because you obviously haven't read it with any attention to detail, but as someone who is obviously trying to discredit Scripture and Christ Himself in favor of a religion you have created yourself, I think I'd be wasting my time.

Why don't you take some time and read, and really try to absorb, the book of Galatians.
 
Really? That’s the best you got?

Let’s see, he was a Pharisee who converted to the Essenes who were led by the Teacher of Righteousness who lived around 100 BC
Not according to the Biblical texts

and whom the Talmud calls Yeshua whose community wrote the Dead Sea Scrolls which parallel the tenets in Paul’s epistles.
The Talmud was written centuries after Jesus. In the New Testament however Jesus quotes from the OT and the Torah
Not sure where you have got your confusion from

The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field, which a man found and covered up. Then in his joy he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field. (Matt. 13:44)
That is the NT though, not the Talmud
 
Not the best I got. I could explain Scripture to you, and perhaps I should, because you obviously haven't read it with any attention to detail, but as someone who is obviously trying to discredit Scripture and Christ Himself in favor of a religion you have created yourself, I think I'd be wasting my time.

Why don't you take some time and read, and really try to absorb, the book of Galatians.
I do not need you to give me your personal interpretation of myths and superstitions. I need you to deal with actual history, aka, reality, documented in the archaeological record and discovered in the last one hundred years. Real people, natural development of jewish-christianity, documented in the archaeological record. Not your imaginary world built on historizing what is actually esoteric stories. It is obvious to critical thinking people, history loving people, willing to step outside the bubble of myth and superstition. Come back when you are in touch with reality.
 
Not according to the Biblical texts
…according to the history and archaeological record around the beginning of this era.

The Talmud was written centuries after Jesus.
The Talmud began in the first century CE but was not completed until sixth century CE.

In the New Testament however Jesus quotes from the OT and the Torah
Not sure where you have got your confusion from
What is your point? A lot of history is not recorded in the Bible. Are you making the absurd claim that the only history is that documented in the Bible? The Dead Sea Scrolls are pre-christian jewish christian writings making them the original jewish-christians practicing Christian sacraments before traditional christianity started. Simply, you dont have all the evidence. Big chunks of history was suppressed and destroyed by the Roman church. Catholicism made you ignorant of the true history of Jewish-christianity. It is why the doctrines, dogmas are so messed up. The roman church falsified the christian faith originally taught by Paul.

The OP is just a small example how his letters were falsified.

That is the NT though, not the Talmud
 
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