Genesis 4 and the unregenerate Cain

[tdidymas]

The flesh serving the law of sin is not "obeying the sinful nature"?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

You're asking a question that is already answered. It cannot be the same thing, given the context of Rom. ch. 6-8. What I see you doing is harping on your opinion that is based on taking that verse of scripture out of its context.

 

[tdidymas]

Then the problem is how you read scripture

The believer is stated to be raised up with Christ

Ephesians 2:6 (KJV 1900) — 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Colossians 2:12 (KJV 1900) — 12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

These verses don't support your opinion.

but let us note

The word resurrection does not appear in John 5:25

what is noted however is a passing from death to life

Doesn't matter. Resurrection is in the context. Notice v. 24 says "has passed" - not "is passing" or "will pass". The verse then supports my opinion better, that regeneration comes first. And v. 25 looks to the future of all who are regenerated, even as the rest of that conversation does.

see comments below





Yet you did not address the points i raised

such as the fact there was no physical resurrection that Christ could point to as being now is

John 5:25 (KJV 1900) — 25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

so what physical resurrection was available in that day

Even if it refers to regeneration, it still doesn't support your idea that faith is exercised prior to it.

but as I noted the word resurrection does not even appear in John 5:25

but it does speak of a passing from death to life

and this verse also shows a passing from death to life

John 5:24 (KJV 1900) — 24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

just as we see in verse 25

you cannot deny that a passing from death to life may in fact be a spiritual reality

It is a spiritual reality, but it doesn't support your idea that faith has to come before regeneration. Notice it says "has passed." At the moment of believing the word heard, the person is already in life.

We also see fact those who believe are given life

John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

only a dead person needs life

so what he have is a spiritual passing from death to life


the man who reads is physically alive

yet he receives life when he believes

not physical life for he already lives

it is spiritual life

which is what regeneration supplies

This is the evangelist writing to multitudes of possibly unregenerate people. Therefore it is an accommodation. It is not a technical explanation of what comes first, which is what you're putting into it. A verse of the process is Eph. 2:5, which is where I base the doctrine.

 

[tdidymas]

OK; Rom 7:25 is partially true: Paul does not serve with the flesh the law of sin?

Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

According to your response, it appears to me that to you, your opinion is better than the context of scripture. You see "serving with the flesh the law of sin" as the same thing as "obeying the sinful nature," so you must think that Paul is referring to himself before he was converted. Is this what you think? If not, please explain.

 

[PeanutGallery]

... You see "serving with the flesh the law of sin" as the same thing as "obeying the sinful nature," ...

"Serving with the flesh the law of sin"(Rom 7:25) is "obeying the sinful nature" (Your words #148).

... so you must think that Paul is referring to himself before he was converted. Is this what you think? If not, please explain.

Before or after does not change Rom 7:25;
Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

 

[fltom]

These verses don't support your opinion.

Lets see

fltom said:
Then the problem is how you read scripture

The believer is stated to be raised up with Christ

Ephesians 2:6 (KJV 1900) — 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Colossians 2:12 (KJV 1900) — 12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Didymas
These verses don't support your opinion.

That's it?

A simple bald denial

The rising here do you deny it is a spiritual rising or raising?

fltom said:
but let us note

The word resurrection does not appear in John 5:25

what is noted however is a passing from death to life

Tdidymas
Doesn't matter. Resurrection is in the context. Notice v. 24 says "has passed" - not "is passing" or "will pass". The verse then supports my opinion better, that regeneration comes first. And v. 25 looks to the future of all who are regenerated, even as the rest of that conversation does.

Oh but it does matter

the same John wrote

John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

and

John 5:40 (KJV 1900) — 40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

John does not contradict himself

John 5:24 (KJV 1900) — 24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life

these are all present tense and life is cotemporary with not future to hearing and believing

and there still was no call from the grave that now is

that is future

that is what we see in verse 28

but men already lived upon hearing and believing

verse 28 does not speaking of living but coming out of the grave because it refers to the time of the general resurrection and judgment and the wicked are never stated to live

fltom said:
see comments below





Yet you did not address the points i raised

such as the fact there was no physical resurrection that Christ could point to as being now is

John 5:25 (KJV 1900) — 25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

so what physical resurrection was available in that day

Tdidymas
Even if it refers to regeneration, it still doesn't support your idea that faith is exercised prior to it.

Of course it does

one hears and one believes and one has life

John 5:24 (KJV 1900) — 24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life

other than that

John 5:25 (KJV 1900) — 25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

hearing clearly precedes living

fltom said:
but as I noted the word resurrection does not even appear in John 5:25

but it does speak of a passing from death to life

and this verse also shows a passing from death to life

John 5:24 (KJV 1900) — 24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

just as we see in verse 25

you cannot deny that a passing from death to life may in fact be a spiritual reality
Click to expand...

Tdidymas
It is a spiritual reality, but it doesn't support your idea that faith has to come before regeneration. Notice it says "has passed." At the moment of believing the word heard, the person is already in life.

What you miss - that is in reference to does not come into condemnation not hearing and beliving

that simply notes that rather than face condemnation these already have life

for they already had life when they heard and believed

fltom said:
We also see fact those who believe are given life

John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

only a dead person needs life

so what he have is a spiritual passing from death to life


the man who reads is physically alive

yet he receives life when he believes

not physical life for he already lives

it is spiritual life

which is what regeneration supplies

John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.Click to expand...

Tdidymas
This is the evangelist writing to multitudes of possibly unregenerate people. Therefore it is an accommodation. It is not a technical explanation of what comes first, which is what you're putting into it. A verse of the process is Eph. 2:5, which is where I base the doctrine.

Seriously? that merely is a denial of the text

John is telling us why he writes

He writes that men might believe based on what he writes- John see no inability here

and by believing they might have life

there is no way to take those word as other than showing faith precedes life

BTW Eph 2:5 does not help you read in context

Ephesians 2:5–8 (KJV 1900) — 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

being made alive is equated to being saved verse 5

but according to verse 8 it is by grace through faith

 

[fltom]

fltom said:
pt2

!@john only notes what we can know about one regenerated

It does not address how one is regenerated

Tdidymas
It is interesting how you agree with me on the assessment of this verse, but in many verses you cited, you don't come to the same conclusion. I get the idea it's because you're reading your agenda into it, wherein you claim those verses say faith comes before regeneration, even though they don't say it. In this case, I'm trying to point out that there are NT scriptures that indicate regeneration comes first. For example Titus 3:5.

If you think i am agreeing with you then you need to reread or rethink

Does one who was regenerated upon faith lose their faith when regenerated ?

Any one who was regenerated will of course believe Jesus is the Christ

Tit 3:5 does not help you either

Titus 3:5 (KJV 1900) — 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

it notes salvation is not of works but faith is not a work

further however it tells us regeneration is how one is saved

it is mechanism of sdalvation

but once again faith precedes salvation

fltom said:
Gramatically it does not refer to faith

and this (not your faith, as Chrys. οὐδὲ ἡ πίστις, φησίν, ἐξ ὑμῶν: so Thdrt., al., Corn.-a-Iap., Beza, Est., Grot., Beng., all.;—this is precluded (not by the gender of τοῦτο, but) by the manifestly parallel clauses οὐκ ἐξ ὑμῶν and οὐκ ἐξ ἔργων, of which the latter would be irrelevant as asserted of πίστις, and the reference of ver. 9 must therefore be changed:—but, as Calv., Calov., Rück., Harl., Olsh., Mey., De W., Stier, al., ‘your salvation;’ τὸ σεσωσμένοι εἶναι, as Ellic.) not of yourselves, God’s (emphatic) is the gift (not, as E. V. ‘it is the gift of God’ (θεοῦ δῶρον),—τὸ δῶρον, viz. of your salvation: so that the expression is pregnant—q. d., ‘but it is a gift, and that gift is God’s.’ There is no occasion, as Lachm., Harl., and De W., to parenthesize these words: they form a contrast to οὐκ ἐξ ὑμ., and a quasi-parallel clause to ἵνα μή τις καυχήσ. below): not of works (for ἐξ ἔργων, see on Rom. 3:4, and Gal. 2:16), that no man should boast (on the proposition implied, see on Rom. 4:2.

1 Henry Alford, Alford’s Greek Testament: An Exegetical and Critical Commentary (Grand Rapids, MI: Guardian Press, 1976), 94.

But whether are we to understand, faith or salvation as being the gift of God? This question is answered by the Greek text: τῃ γαρ χαριτι εστε σεσωσμενοι δια της πιστεως· και τουτο ουκ εξ ὑμων· Θεου το δωρον, ουκ εξ εργων· ἰνα μη τις καυχησηται· “By this grace ye are saved through faith; and this (τουτο, this salvation) not of you; it is the gift of God, not of works: so that no one can boast.” “The relative τουτο, this, which is in the neuter gender, cannot stand for πιστις, faith, which is the feminine; but it has the whole sentence that goes before for its antecedent.” But it may be asked: Is not faith the gift of God? Yes, as to the grace by which it is produced; but the grace or power to believe, and the act of believing, are two different things. Without the grace or power to believe no man ever did or can believe; but with that power the act of faith is a man’s own. God never believes for any man, no more than he repents for him; the penitent, through this grace enabling him, believes for himself: nor does he believe necessarily, or impulsively when he has that power; the power to believe may be present long before it is exercised, else, why the solemn warnings with which we meet every where in the word of God, and threatenings against those who do not believe? Is not this a proof that such persons have the power but do not use it? They believe not, and therefore are not established. This, therefore, is the true state of the case: God gives the power, man uses the power thus given, and brings glory to God: without the power no man can believe; with it, any man may.1

1 Adam Clarke, The Holy Bible with a Commentary and Critical Notes (vol. 6, New Edition.; Bellingham, WA: Faithlife Corporation, 2014), 439.



And that not of yourselves. That is, salvation does not proceed from yourselves. The word rendered that—τοῦτο—is in the neuter gender, and the word faith—πίστις—is in the feminine. The word “that,” therefore, does not refer particularly to faith, as being the gift of God, but to the salvation by grace of which he had been speaking. This is the interpretation of the passage which is the most obvious, and which is now generally conceded to be the true one; see Bloomfield1

1 Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament: Ephesians, Philippians & Colossians (ed. Robert Frew; London: Blackie & Son, 1884–1885), 42.

But they commonly misintepret this text, and restrict the word ‘gift’ to faith alone. But Paul is only repeating his earlier statement in other words. He does not mean that faith is the gift of God, but that salvation is given to us by God … " (from, Calvin’s Commentaries 4:145
Click to expand...

Tdidymas
Firstly, your last statement is irrelevant, because I did no such of a thing. But you quote this as an exaggeration against my argument.

It was not addressed to you personally

those were Calvins words agreeing with the grel scholars quoted above that touto this or that does not refer to faith


Tdidymas
Then also, you have your favorite commentators who are slanted to your interpretation. But even some commentators I favor say the same thing, that "that" refers not to faith, but salvation. So even if that is grammatically correct, so what? I'm saying the IT in "it is not of yourself" is not only the salvation referred to, but also the grace and the faith, because all of it comes together. You cannot separate out faith as a distinct action that happens by itself, as if it's the cause of God regenerating you, and still be consistent with all of NT scripture.

Calvin is a Calvinist

Robertson another Calvinist

Barne's as well

Tdidymas

I say that faith in Christ is not of ourselves (it's part of God's gracious gift), because it comes to us with the revelation of God and wisdom from above, which is communicated to us (that is, our spirit) from the Holy Spirit. So I think there is a distinction between conviction and regeneration, wherein the one who comes to believe gets both, but the one who remains an unbeliever can be convicted (or not), but not regenerated. Still, that doesn't solve the controversy.

You can say that but greek scholars and Calvinists have disagreed with you

and your understanding faith is not of yourself lead to the the idea faith is not of works

which is just silly tautology

further biblical faith requires an act of your will committing yourself to the object of your faith

that is not something which can be irresistibly infused in you

Note two commentary sources I sometimes reference:

Commentary on Ephesians 2:8-10 | Monergism​

by John EadieVerse 8(Ephesians 2:8.) τῇ γὰρ χάριτί ἐστε σεσωσμένοι διὰ τῆς πίστεως—“For by grace ye have been saved, through your faith.” The particle γάρ
www.monergism.com
Ephesians 2:8 Commentaries: For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

Er that does not say what you claim

Nowhere goes it state faith is the gift

salvation is the gift as we see here

Romans 6:23 (KJV 1900) — 23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Tdidymas

From this we see that there are differing opinions on what is the gift and what isn't in this verse, and it depends on your bias, apparently.

Not based on what is stated there we don't

you just read your interpretation into it

 

[tdidymas]

"Serving with the flesh the law of sin"(Rom 7:25) is "obeying the sinful nature" (Your words #148).

Those are not my words. If you think they are, point to it exactly. Post #148 is not the right one. I actually said the opposite, that the phrase was NOT obeying the sinful nature. The phrase "living according to the flesh" means obeying the sinful nature, as well as sometimes "walking in the flesh."

Before or after does not change Rom 7:25;
Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

I'm just trying to understand why you are harping on it. It appears to me that you don't see a difference between before and after conversion, that Gal. 5:16-17 applies either way. Is that what you think?

 

[tdidymas]

Didymas
These verses don't support your opinion.

That's it?

A simple bald denial

The rising here do you deny it is a spiritual rising or raising?

What makes you think I deny that in those verses? I think you're exaggerating.
It wasn't a mere bald denial. I had already explained it before.

Oh but it does matter

the same John wrote

John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

and

John 5:40 (KJV 1900) — 40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

John does not contradict himself

Are you accusing me of contradiction? then explain it, don't just assert it without any proof.

John 5:24 (KJV 1900) — 24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life

these are all present tense and life is cotemporary with not future to hearing and believing

and there still was no call from the grave that now is

that is future

that is what we see in verse 28

but men already lived upon hearing and believing

verse 28 does not speaking of living but coming out of the grave because it refers to the time of the general resurrection and judgment and the wicked are never stated to live

Notice it says "hath everlasting life," not "can have" or "will have" or any such thing. So hearing leads to believing, but it says they have life (already). Therefore, the life happened at the hearing. The believing came as a result.

Of course it does

one hears and one believes and one has life

John 5:24 (KJV 1900) — 24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life

other than that

John 5:25 (KJV 1900) — 25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

hearing clearly precedes living

"shall live" follows "shall hear." It's talking about future events. Nothing about believing before life. All you're doing is making assertions. Your logic is very muddy.

What you miss - that is in reference to does not come into condemnation not hearing and beliving

that simply notes that rather than face condemnation these already have life

for they already had life when they heard and believed

This response doesn't look clear. It looks like you're agreeing with me that when they heard and believed they already had life. Is this what you're saying? or did you make a mistake?

John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.Click to expand...

Seriously? that merely is a denial of the text

It is not a denial. There are many such accommodations in both the OT and NT.

John is telling us why he writes

He writes that men might believe based on what he writes- John see no inability here

and by believing they might have life

there is no way to take those word as other than showing faith precedes life

You're still reading your agenda into the text. It doesn't say that. All evangelists accommodate the unregenerate. Communicating at the level of the natural man is what helps them understand. It's like baby talk. Teaching solid-meat doctrine to unbelievers hinders them because they can't understand it. John 20:31 is an evangelistic statement, because his book is evangelistic in nature. It is not a teaching on the process of salvation like the epistles. And still Eph. 2:5 stands against you.

BTW Eph 2:5 does not help you read in context

Ephesians 2:5–8 (KJV 1900) — 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

being made alive is equated to being saved verse 5

but according to verse 8 it is by grace through faith

Right, it is by grace through faith. First comes grace wherein God raises us to life, and then faith of the individual comes into play, resulting in salvation. BTW, regeneration starts salvation, but it's not the same thing.

Think of natural birth as an analogy of spiritual birth. It is said the baby decides to be born, since at that time the mother can't contain it. But the baby already existed before birth. So also there is a gestation in the spirit wherein the person is being prepared to receive the gospel, and it's all God's work. Just as a baby can't decide to exist before it exists, so also a Christian can't decide to be one before he is one. Paul calls spiritual birth a "new creation." In the same way, a dead spirit cannot decide to come alive before it is alive. It must be alive to make that choice to be alive.

 

[tdidymas]

Tdidymas
It is interesting how you agree with me on the assessment of this verse, but in many verses you cited, you don't come to the same conclusion. I get the idea it's because you're reading your agenda into it, wherein you claim those verses say faith comes before regeneration, even though they don't say it. In this case, I'm trying to point out that there are NT scriptures that indicate regeneration comes first. For example Titus 3:5.

If you think i am agreeing with you then you need to reread or rethink

The way you communicated your opinion on that verse appeared to me that you agreed with me on it.

Does one who was regenerated upon faith lose their faith when regenerated ?

This makes no sense. And why are you talking about losing faith? Isn't that a different subject?

Any one who was regenerated will of course believe Jesus is the Christ

Yes, that's my point.

Tit 3:5 does not help you either

Titus 3:5 (KJV 1900) — 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

it notes salvation is not of works but faith is not a work

This verse doesn't mention faith. I get it is because he is saying salvation is all of God.

further however it tells us regeneration is how one is saved

it is mechanism of sdalvation

but once again faith precedes salvation

Again, your assertion, but it doesn't say that.

It was not addressed to you personally

those were Calvins words agreeing with the grel scholars quoted above that touto this or that does not refer to faith

Tdidymas
Then also, you have your favorite commentators who are slanted to your interpretation. But even some commentators I favor say the same thing, that "that" refers not to faith, but salvation. So even if that is grammatically correct, so what? I'm saying the IT in "it is not of yourself" is not only the salvation referred to, but also the grace and the faith, because all of it comes together. You cannot separate out faith as a distinct action that happens by itself, as if it's the cause of God regenerating you, and still be consistent with all of NT scripture.

Calvin is a Calvinist

Robertson another Calvinist

Barne's as well


You can say that but greek scholars and Calvinists have disagreed with you

and your understanding faith is not of yourself lead to the the idea faith is not of works

which is just silly tautology

Sorry I took a shortcut, as Paul often does. No, faith is exercised by us, but is caused by God. Our faith is not caused by us apart from God. I take it you are advocating that faith is caused by us apart from God. That's what I'm arguing against.

further biblical faith requires an act of your will committing yourself to the object of your faith

that is not something which can be irresistibly infused in you

Note two commentary sources I sometimes reference:


Er that does not say what you claim

Nowhere goes it state faith is the gift

Did you actually read it? Note:
Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges
8. For by grace, &c.] The connexion of thought (“for”) is with the leading truth of Ephesians 2:4-7; the gratuitous “loving-kindness of the Lord” in the salvation of the Church. This, we have just read, will be the great future lesson of that salvation to the intelligent Universe; and this accordingly is re-stated here.

This important ver., and Ephesians 2:9, are rendered lit., For by grace ye have been saved, by means of faith; and that, not of you—God’s is the gift; not of works, that no one should boast. Here the main teaching is clear in itself, and clearer than ever as illustrated by e. g. Romans 3; Philippians 3. The salvation of the soul, and of the Church, is essentially and entirely a matter of sovereign Divine mercy in purpose and accomplishment. It is deliberately meant that no exception or reserve is to be made to that statement. But in detail, the verse presents a problem. Does it distinctly state that “faith” is the “gift of God,” or does it state, more generally, that “gratuitous salvation” is the “gift of God,” leaving it open whether the faith which accepts it is His gift or not? The question is largely occasioned by the construction of the Greek, in which “that” (neuter) does not agree with “faith” (feminine).—Many great expositors, Calvin at the head of them, accordingly take “that” to refer to the main previous idea, and “through faith” to be a separate inserted thought. Alford, who takes this view, states the case for it briefly and well. Nevertheless we recommend the other explanation, and for the following simple reason: the phrase “and that” (lit., “and this”) is familiar in N.T. Greek to introduce an addition of thought, enforcing or heightening what has gone before. See 1 Corinthians 6:6; 1 Corinthians 6:8; “and that before the unbelievers;” “and that, your brethren;” Php 1:28; Hebrews 11:12, (A.V., “and him, &c.”). But if it here refers only to the general previous idea, gratuitous salvation, it is hard to see what new force of thought it adds to the words “by grace.” If on the other hand it refers to the last special statement, “through faith,” there is a real additional point in the assertion that even the act of believing is a gift of God; for thus precisely the one link in the process where the man might have thought he acted alone, and where therefore, in St Paul’s sense, he might claim to “boast,” is claimed for God. Let the clauses, “and that, not of you; God’s is the gift,” be taken as a parenthesis, and the point of the interpretation will be clear; while the Greek amply admits the arrangement.

That “faith” is a matter of Divine gift is clear from e. g. 2 Corinthians 4:13; Php 1:29. Not that a new faculty of trust is implanted, but gracious manifestations—of the soul’s need and the Saviour’s glory—prevail upon the will to choose to repose trust in the right Object. The “gift” of faith is but one phase of the Divine action which (Php 2:13) “worketh in us to will.” And it may be said to be one aspect of the “gift of repentance” (Acts 5:31; 2 Timothy 2:25), for repentance is no mere preliminary to faith; it is the whole complex “change of mind” which includes faith.

See Bp O’Brien’s Nature and Effects of Faith, Note I.

Bengel's Gnomen
Ephesians 2:8. Τῃ—χάριτι) τῇ has a relative meaning, in reference to Ephesians 2:5, χάριτι.—γὰρ, for) He does not say, therefore, but for, because he concludes [infers] from the effect to the cause.—διὰ τῆς πίστεως, by faith) which arises from the resurrection of Christ, chap. Ephesians 1:19,[23] [whence it is not at all mentioned in Ephesians 2:5, but for the first time in Ephesians 2:8. See Colossians 2:12.—V. g.] The antithesis is, not of works; an antithesis of the same kind as that between grace and boasting [“lest any man should boast”].—καὶ τοῦτο) and this, namely, believing, or faith, is not of yourselves. The antithesis is: this is the gift of God alone.

[23] Which passage implies, not merely that faith believes in Christ’s resurrection, but that also it is the same Spirit, which raised Jesus, which raises the spiritually dead and creates in them faith. Comp. “the power of the resurrection,” Php 3:10.—ED.

salvation is the gift as we see here

Romans 6:23 (KJV 1900) — 23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Tdidymas


Not based on what is stated there we don't

you just read your interpretation into it

As you also do. So are we at an impasse? Would it be edifying to continue?

 

[PeanutGallery]

Those are not my words. If you think they are, point to it exactly. Post #148 is not the right one.

Sorry, wrong post:

No trap from my end. You're harping on Rom. 7:25 as if Paul walked in the flesh (that is, obeying the sinful nature) when he clearly said he didn't. My point is that you are misinterpreting it.

 

[fltom]

fltom said:
Tdidymas
It is interesting how you agree with me on the assessment of this verse, but in many verses you cited, you don't come to the same conclusion. I get the idea it's because you're reading your agenda into it, wherein you claim those verses say faith comes before regeneration, even though they don't say it. In this case, I'm trying to point out that there are NT scriptures that indicate regeneration comes first. For example Titus 3:5.

If you think i am agreeing with you then you need to reread or rethink

Tdidymas'
The way you communicated your opinion on that verse appeared to me that you agreed with me on it.

Not even close

fltom said:
Does one who was regenerated upon faith lose their faith when regenerated ?

Tdidymas
This makes no sense. And why are you talking about losing faith? Isn't that a different subject?

It does if you thought I was agreeing with you concerning the interpretation of 1John 5:1
which is speaking of the continued life of faith not the initial entrance into it

fltom said:
Any one who was regenerated will of course believe Jesus is the Christ

Tdidymas
Yes, that's my point.

No you are speaking of the initial entrance into faith I am speaking of the continued life of faith

fltom said:
Tit 3:5 does not help you either

Titus 3:5 (KJV 1900) — 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

it notes salvation is not of works but faith is not a work

TDidymas
This verse doesn't mention faith. I get it is because he is saying salvation is all of God.

Again the verse establishes two things

salvation is not a work
regeneration is how we are saved

fltom said:
further however it tells us regeneration is how one is saved

it is mechanism of salvation

but once again faith precedes salvation

Again, your assertion, but it doesn't say that.

You want to argue faith does not precede salvation

The bible clearly teaches that

Acts 16:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

It is not just my assertion it is biblical fact

fltom said:
It was not addressed to you personally

those were Calvins words agreeing with the greekl scholars quoted above that touto this or that does not refer to faith

Tdidymas
Then also, you have your favorite commentators who are slanted to your interpretation. But even some commentators I favor say the same thing, that "that" refers not to faith, but salvation. So even if that is grammatically correct, so what? I'm saying the IT in "it is not of yourself" is not only the salvation referred to, but also the grace and the faith, because all of it comes together. You cannot separate out faith as a distinct action that happens by itself, as if it's the cause of God regenerating you, and still be consistent with all of NT scripture.

Calvin is a Calvinist

Robertson another Calvinist

Barne's as well


You can say that but greek scholars and Calvinists have disagreed with you

and your understanding faith is not of yourself leads to the idea faith is not of works

which is just silly tautology
Click to expand...

Tdidymas
Sorry I took a shortcut, as Paul often does. No, faith is exercised by us, but is caused by God. Our faith is not caused by us apart from God. I take it you are advocating that faith is caused by us apart from God. That's what I'm arguing against.

Romans 10:17 (KJV 1900) — 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

God takes the initiative and provides revelation. Upon revelation man can believe or not believe

fltom said:
further biblical faith requires an act of your will committing yourself to the object of your faith

that is not something which can be irresistibly infused in you

Tdidymas

Note two commentary sources I sometimes reference:

Tom

Er that does not say what you claim

Nowhere goes it state faith is the gift
Click to expand...

end pta

 

[fltom]

end pta

pt b

Did you actually read it? Note:

Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges
8. For by grace, &c.] The connexion of thought (“for”) is with the leading truth of Ephesians 2:4-7; the gratuitous “loving-kindness of the Lord” in the salvation of the Church. This, we have just read, will be the great future lesson of that salvation to the intelligent Universe; and this accordingly is re-stated here.

This important ver., and Ephesians 2:9, are rendered lit., For by grace ye have been saved, by means of faith; and that, not of you—God’s is the gift; not of works, that no one should boast. Here the main teaching is clear in itself, and clearer than ever as illustrated by e. g. Romans 3; Philippians 3. The salvation of the soul, and of the Church, is essentially and entirely a matter of sovereign Divine mercy in purpose and accomplishment. It is deliberately meant that no exception or reserve is to be made to that statement. But in detail, the verse presents a problem. Does it distinctly state that “faith” is the “gift of God,” or does it state, more generally, that “gratuitous salvation” is the “gift of God,” leaving it open whether the faith which accepts it is His gift or not? The question is largely occasioned by the construction of the Greek, in which “that” (neuter) does not agree with “faith” (feminine).—Many great expositors, Calvin at the head of them, accordingly take “that” to refer to the main previous idea, and “through faith” to be a separate inserted thought. Alford, who takes this view, states the case for it briefly and well. Nevertheless we recommend the other explanation, and for the following simple reason: the phrase “and that” (lit., “and this”) is familiar in N.T. Greek to introduce an addition of thought, enforcing or heightening what has gone before. See 1 Corinthians 6:6; 1 Corinthians 6:8; “and that before the unbelievers;” “and that, your brethren;” Php 1:28; Hebrews 11:12, (A.V., “and him, &c.”). But if it here refers only to the general previous idea, gratuitous salvation, it is hard to see what new force of thought it adds to the words “by grace.” If on the other hand it refers to the last special statement, “through faith,” there is a real additional point in the assertion that even the act of believing is a gift of God; for thus precisely the one link in the process where the man might have thought he acted alone, and where therefore, in St Paul’s sense, he might claim to “boast,” is claimed for God. Let the clauses, “and that, not of you; God’s is the gift,” be taken as a parenthesis, and the point of the interpretation will be clear; while the Greek amply admits the arrangement.

That “faith” is a matter of Divine gift is clear from e. g. 2 Corinthians 4:13; Php 1:29. Not that a new faculty of trust is implanted, but gracious manifestations—of the soul’s need and the Saviour’s glory—prevail upon the will to choose to repose trust in the right Object. The “gift” of faith is but one phase of the Divine action which (Php 2:13) “worketh in us to will.” And it may be said to be one aspect of the “gift of repentance” (Acts 5:31; 2 Timothy 2:25), for repentance is no mere preliminary to faith; it is the whole complex “change of mind” which includes faith.

See Bp O’Brien’s Nature and Effects of Faith, Note I.

Bengel's Gnomen
Ephesians 2:8. Τῃ—χάριτι) τῇ has a relative meaning, in reference to Ephesians 2:5, χάριτι.—γὰρ, for) He does not say, therefore, but for, because he concludes [infers] from the effect to the cause.—διὰ τῆς πίστεως, by faith) which arises from the resurrection of Christ, chap. Ephesians 1:19,[23] [whence it is not at all mentioned in Ephesians 2:5, but for the first time in Ephesians 2:8. See Colossians 2:12.—V. g.] The antithesis is, not of works; an antithesis of the same kind as that between grace and boasting [“lest any man should boast”].—καὶ τοῦτο) and this, namely, believing, or faith, is not of yourselves. The antithesis is: this is the gift of God alone.

[23] Which passage implies, not merely that faith believes in Christ’s resurrection, but that also it is the same Spirit, which raised Jesus, which raises the spiritually dead and creates in them faith. Comp. “the power of the resurrection,” Php 3:10.—ED.

This is special pleading

Nowhere do we clearly read faith is a gift

Grammatically it does not as the pronoun this does not match in gender with faith as a pronoun normally does with its antecedent

Grammar tops commentary

further We have a verse which tells us it is salvation which is the gift

Romans 6:23 (KJV 1900) — 23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

fltom said:
salvation is the gift as we see here

Romans 6:23 (KJV 1900) — 23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Tdidymas


Not based on what is stated there we don't

You are going to deny what scripture clearly notes

Romans 6:23 (KJV 1900) — 23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

based on a single disputed verse

that is not sound

 

[fltom]

What makes you think I deny that in those verses? I think you're exaggerating.
It wasn't a mere bald denial. I had already explained it before.

Lets see


I had noted

fltom said:


The believer is stated to be raised up with Christ

Ephesians 2:6 (KJV 1900) — 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Colossians 2:12 (KJV 1900) — 12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Didymas
These verses don't support your opinion.

That's it?

A simple bald denial

The rising here do you deny it is a spiritual rising or raising?

Are you accusing me of contradiction? then explain it, don't just assert it without any proof.

Why did you not address the question?

You denied regeneration was a spiritual resurrection

I am addressing that

Notice it says "hath everlasting life," not "can have" or "will have" or any such thing. So hearing leads to believing, but it says they have life (already). Therefore, the life happened at the hearing. The believing came as a result.

"shall live" follows "shall hear." It's talking about future events. Nothing about believing before life. All you're doing is making assertions. Your logic is very muddy.

John 5:24 (KJV 1900) — 24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

hath is a present active tense it does not precede believing

the one who has life isd he who hears and believes

you are reading it as a past tense but it is not

and

John 5:25 (KJV 1900) — 25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

future only to the hearing one must hear first then one has life

the time frame now is

once again there was no physical resurrection during Christ's day other than his own

man entered life when he heard and believed

John 5:24 (KJV 1900) — 24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

notice believing that you might have life

here also

John 3:36 (KJV 1900) — 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 5:40 (KJV 1900) — 40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

one must come to Christ through faith to have life

This response doesn't look clear. It looks like you're agreeing with me that when they heard and believed they already had life. Is this what you're saying? or did you make a mistake?

No not at al

I am giving many verses which clearly show faith precedes life

It is not a denial. There are many such accommodations in both the OT and NT.

You're still reading your agenda into the text. It doesn't say that. All evangelists accommodate the unregenerate. Communicating at the level of the natural man is what helps them understand. It's like baby talk. Teaching solid-meat doctrine to unbelievers hinders them because they can't understand it. John 20:31 is an evangelistic statement, because his book is evangelistic in nature. It is not a teaching on the process of salvation like the epistles. And still Eph. 2:5 stands against you.

That is absurd

John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Accommodation of what?

Is John under the inspiration of the Spirit stating a falsehood?

one believes that one might have life

It can't get any plainer than that

 

[tdidymas]

Not even close



It does if you thought I was agreeing with you concerning the interpretation of 1John 5:1
which is speaking of the continued life of faith not the initial entrance into it



No you are speaking of the initial entrance into faith I am speaking of the continued life of faith


Again the verse establishes two things

salvation is not a work
regeneration is how we are saved

Nothing in what you say here supports your claim that faith has to come first (chronologically).

Again, your assertion, but it doesn't say that.

You want to argue faith does not precede salvation

The bible clearly teaches that

Acts 16:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

It is not just my assertion it is biblical fact

Everyone who demands that others accept their opinion say exactly that. No, it does not say what you claim. You are basing your opinion on an inference which is an interpretation based on a premise. The issue is how you come to your conclusion from an assumption you are making. This is my point in this whole discussion. Your assumption may be true, and may not be true. So for you to claim it's a biblical fact is arrogant.

Romans 10:17 (KJV 1900) — 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

God takes the initiative and provides revelation. Upon revelation man can believe or not believe

The problem with your idea that faith comes first is that you don't recognize the true spiritual condition man is in prior to conversion. So if man is really in an extremely bad state (as described in Rom. 3:10-18), and really can't understand (spiritually) the gospel (but thinks it wrong as shown in 1 Cor. 2:14), THEN the revelation that God provides to an individual that enables them to believe is RADICAL GRACE, which is described in Eph. 2:5. But I'm sure you'll disagree.

 

[fltom]

Nothing in what you say here supports your claim that faith has to come first (chronologically).

That is just a refusal to believe scripture asc written

John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

believe and have life

John 5:40 (KJV 1900) — 40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

come to Jesus by faith and you will have life

Acts 11:18 (KJV)
18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

repent before receiving life

Galatians 3:26 (KJV)
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

become a child of God by faith in Christ

John 1:12 (KJV)
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

receive Christ that you might become a child of God

John 5:24 (KJV) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life,

believe and have everlasting life

Acts 16:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

believe and be saved


faith precedes all those thing

and all those things come through regeneration

Everyone who demands that others accept their opinion say exactly that. No, it does not say what you claim. You are basing your opinion on an inference which is an interpretation based on a premise. The issue is how you come to your conclusion from an assumption you are making. This is my point in this whole discussion. Your assumption may be true, and may not be true. So for you to claim it's a biblical fact is arrogant.

The problem with your idea that faith comes first is that you don't recognize the true spiritual condition man is in prior to conversion. So if man is really in an extremely bad state (as described in Rom. 3:10-18), and really can't understand (spiritually) the gospel (but thinks it wrong as shown in 1 Cor. 2:14), THEN the revelation that God provides to an individual that enables them to believe is RADICAL GRACE, which is described in Eph. 2:5. But I'm sure you'll disagree.

The problem with your claim is it is plainly contradicted by many verses of scripture

some of which were posted above

 

[tdidymas]

That is just a refusal to believe scripture asc written

John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

believe and have life

John 5:40 (KJV 1900) — 40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

come to Jesus by faith and you will have life

Acts 11:18 (KJV)
18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

repent before receiving life

Galatians 3:26 (KJV)
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

become a child of God by faith in Christ

John 1:12 (KJV)
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

receive Christ that you might become a child of God

John 5:24 (KJV) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life,

believe and have everlasting life

Acts 16:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

believe and be saved


faith precedes all those thing

and all those things come through regeneration




The problem with your claim is it is plainly contradicted by many verses of scripture

some of which were posted above

I can say the very same thing about your responses (in fact, I do).

 

[fltom]

I can say the very same thing about your responses (in fact, I do).

You can say but the scriptures speak otherwise



John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

believe and have life

John 5:40 (KJV 1900) — 40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

come to Jesus by faith and you will have life

Acts 11:18 (KJV)
18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

repent before receiving life

Galatians 3:26 (KJV)
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

become a child of God by faith in Christ

John 1:12 (KJV)
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

receive Christ that you might become a child of God

John 5:24 (KJV) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life,

believe and have everlasting life

Acts 16:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

believe and be saved


faith precedes all those thing

and all those things come through regeneration




The problem with your claim is it is plainly contradicted by many verses of scripture

some of which were posted above

 

[guest1]

OK; now it is established that we all sin:


So far we've covered:
a) Christian 'walking in the flesh'; 2Cor 10:3
b) Christian not 'walking after the flesh'; Rom 8:1
c) Christian 'serving sin in the flesh'; Rom 7:25

Which of the three is pleasing to God?
Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Amen

 

[fltom]

You can say but the scriptures speak otherwise



John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

believe and have life

John 5:40 (KJV 1900) — 40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

come to Jesus by faith and you will have life

Acts 11:18 (KJV)
18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

repent before receiving life

Galatians 3:26 (KJV)
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

become a child of God by faith in Christ

John 1:12 (KJV)
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

receive Christ that you might become a child of God

John 5:24 (KJV) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life,

believe and have everlasting life

Acts 16:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

believe and be saved


faith precedes all those thing

and all those things come through regeneration




The problem with your claim is it is plainly contradicted by many verses of scripture

some of which were posted above

The Calvinists here run into the same problem