Genesis 6:5-7 What happened here with God?

Howie said:
Is sin in this world by the will of God, Joe?
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I find nowhere in the scriptures that He ordered it, or that He desired for it to be within His creation. We do find that He foreknew about sin and had a redemptive plan.

In Genesis 6:5-7, God is certainly dismayed at the wickedness of man enough that He was regretful and sorry that He made man, and enough so that He wanted to eliminate man.

Do you think God ordered-decreed sin in creation? Or do you think God gave creation free moral choice, knowing what it would do?

God bless
 
Joe said:
I find nowhere in the scriptures that He ordered it, or that He desired for it to be within His creation. We do find that He foreknew about sin and had a redemptive plan.

In Genesis 6:5-7, God is certainly dismayed at the wickedness of man enough that He was regretful and sorry that He made man, and enough so that He wanted to eliminate man.

Do you think God ordered-decreed sin in creation? Or do you think God gave creation free moral choice, knowing what it would do?

God bless
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I think your understanding with Genesis 6 has issues. One, God is omniscient and knew exactly how man would turn out. He created them. He should be mad at Himself. But why woukd He be? He knew the outcome because that's the outcome He desired.
 
Joe said:
"The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the LORD regretted that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart. So the LORD said, “I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, man and animals and creeping things and birds of the heavens, for I am sorry that I have made them.” (Gen 6:5-7)

I've heard many on this board defend their belief that God determines every thought and action of man and yet in Genesis 6:5-7 it seems that He does not, unless God determines things and is later regretful and sorry for His determinations.

IF God determines every thought and action of man, then He is the one who caused verse 6, "...the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually". Is this really the work of God, who by His determination before the world was made fatalistically caused the wickedness of man and all that came with it by His determinations? Under determinism these people did exactly what God made them do. They had no other option than to be greatly wicked and evil of heart continually.

We continue reading and understand that God regretted making man on the earth and it grieved Him to His heart. Now why would God regret and be grieved making man IF man is doing exactly what He determined for them to do, each thought and action?

Continuing we understand God in His regret was sorry for making man and was going to blot man out, eliminate mankind.

Did God make a mistake and regret it later to the point that He was going to eliminate man?

For the Calvinist, what happened here with God? Why did He seem surprised, regretful, and grievous if man is doing exactly what He made them to do?


God bless
Please note: My time is very limited. My responses may be slow or selective.
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Eze 33:11 "Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?" (Eze 18:31-32)

Along the same lines, if God determines-causes men to be wicked, why does God have displeasure in the very thing He determined-caused?!?!
 
ReverendRV said:
I would say that God didn't Determine that Man would be Wicked, I think that would Conflate to it entering the Mind of God to Cause Judah to Sin...

I think the Passage says God 'saw' that the thoughts and intentions of the World's hearts were only Evil continually; IE when they ate, drank, gave into marriage, etc. This is similar to when God saw that Abraham Feared him; IE now God knew. If we can begin to fathom God being both Omniscient and knowing Abraham's heart in Time, we can equally fathom God seeing the Pre Antediluvian World and THEN knowing of their Wickedness...

Are we having fun yet?
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Would you say wickedness is libertarian then?
 
Joe said:
I find nowhere in the scriptures that He ordered it, or that He desired for it to be within His creation. We do find that He foreknew about sin and had a redemptive plan.
Click to expand...
Does scripture order that you buy a car?

Joe said:
In Genesis 6:5-7, God is certainly dismayed at the wickedness of man enough that He was regretful and sorry that He made man, and enough so that He wanted to eliminate man.

Do you think God ordered-decreed sin in creation?
Click to expand...
I believe, from scripture, that nothing happens outside the will of God, so yes, I believe sin is part of God's plan, and that sin is in the world by God's will.

Joe said:
Or do you think God gave creation free moral choice, knowing what it would do?
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What do you mean by that, specifically?

I believe men are volitional creatures, IOW, men make choices, and being morally corrupted by the fall, they make choices in that vein.
 
Joe said:
"The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the LORD regretted that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart. So the LORD said, “I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, man and animals and creeping things and birds of the heavens, for I am sorry that I have made them.” (Gen 6:5-7)

I've heard many on this board defend their belief that God determines every thought and action of man and yet in Genesis 6:5-7 it seems that He does not, unless God determines things and is later regretful and sorry for His determinations.

IF God determines every thought and action of man, then He is the one who caused verse 6, "...the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually". Is this really the work of God, who by His determination before the world was made fatalistically caused the wickedness of man and all that came with it by His determinations? Under determinism these people did exactly what God made them do. They had no other option than to be greatly wicked and evil of heart continually.

We continue reading and understand that God regretted making man on the earth and it grieved Him to His heart. Now why would God regret and be grieved making man IF man is doing exactly what He determined for them to do, each thought and action?

Continuing we understand God in His regret was sorry for making man and was going to blot man out, eliminate mankind.

Did God make a mistake and regret it later to the point that He was going to eliminate man?

For the Calvinist, what happened here with God? Why did He seem surprised, regretful, and grievous if man is doing exactly what He made them to do?


God bless
Please note: My time is very limited. My responses may be slow or selective.
Click to expand...
I like this passage a lot, but to be honest it doesn't do Arminians a favor any more than it does Calvinists, since both groups adhere to classical theism. To take this passage as a refutation of the idea that God doesn't determine our every thought and action, we have to also deny that God even knows our every thought and action before they happen in time.
 
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ReverendRV said:
I would say that God didn't Determine that Man would be Wicked, I think that would Conflate to it entering the Mind of God to Cause Judah to Sin...

I think the Passage says God 'saw' that the thoughts and intentions of the World's hearts were only Evil continually; IE when they ate, drank, gave into marriage, etc. This is similar to when God saw that Abraham Feared him; IE now God knew. If we can begin to fathom God being both Omniscient and knowing Abraham's heart in Time, we can equally fathom God seeing the Pre Antediluvian World and THEN knowing of their Wickedness...

Are we having fun yet?
Click to expand...

But if the wicked are libertarian and happened to choose wickedness, then it could have gone either way. Would that not imply that the saved although predetermined (your view) could well have chosen salvation anyway? Like it nets out the same as all libertarian?
 
ReverendRV said:
That's close...

I am not saying that God Meant the Human good but didn't Mean the Human Evil. I'm saying that God Meant the Divine Good in All of the World's Deeds; such as eating, drinking and giving into Marriage. I don't think I can say God Meant the Thoughts of the World, because the Bible says it never entered the Mind of God to Cause (Primary Causation) Judah to Sin. God is the Primary Causation of All the World's Deeds; but he Meant it for Good. The only Act the Bible mentions God Meaning it for Divine Good, is Joseph and his brothers. I say this example explains God's Providence in All which comes to pass...
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How is that compatable with Calvinism.

And not saying it isn't.

Your post made sense to me.

However .........

Seems like frredom takes a big hit on that altar?
 
Kampioen said:
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But if the wicked are libertarian and happened to choose wickedness, then it could have gone either way. Would that not imply that the saved although predetermined (your view) could well have chosen salvation anyway? Like it nets out the same as all libertarian?
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No, the Liberty of the Wicked is a Wicked Liberty...
 
ReverendRV said:
That's close...

I am not saying that God Meant the Human good but didn't Mean the Human Evil. I'm saying that God Meant the Divine Good in All of the World's Deeds; such as eating, drinking and giving into Marriage. I don't think I can say God Meant the Thoughts of the World, because the Bible says it never entered the Mind of God to Cause (Primary Causation) Judah to Sin. God is the Primary Causation of All the World's Deeds; but he Meant it for Good. The only Act the Bible mentions God Meaning it for Divine Good, is Joseph and his brothers. I say this example explains God's Providence in All which comes to pass...
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what good came out of the burning of children in the fire?

Jeremiah 32:35 (ESV) — 35 They built the high places of Baal in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to offer up their sons and daughters to Molech, though I did not command them, nor did it enter into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.
 
Howie said:
Is sin in this world by the will of God, Joe?
Click to expand...

There are varying degrees of belief within the followers of "Calvinism". I one of those people that don't believe God orchestrated evil.

There is no doubt that evil exists because God hasn't taken direct action to eradicate it. We know that He will. He has promised to do so. We know at the very least, God limits evil, God works against evil, and God does GOOD things, never evil things.
 
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Slyzr said:
How is that compatable with Calvinism.

And not saying it isn't.

Your post made sense to me.

However .........

Seems like frredom takes a big hit on that altar?
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There is plenty of freedom to be had in a cage. Evil men have food and water. Evil men have good things that enable them to do bad things. The cage is the cage. Life. Death.
 
christ_undivided said:
There is plenty of freedom to be had in a cage. Evil men have food and water. Evil men have good things that enable them to do bad things. The cage is the cage. Life. Death.
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Alot of truth in that .....

However, it is kind of like being sentenced before doing anything.
 
Slyzr said:
Alot of truth in that .....

However, it is kind of like being sentenced before doing anything.
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Yeah it is. It is one of the things I admit is difficult to accept. Convince me that it isn't. I've tried for many years to reconcile my desires against what is written and I'm not there.
 
christ_undivided said:
There are varying degrees of belief within the followers of "Calvinism". I one of those people that don't believe God orchestrated evil.

There is no doubt that evil exists because God hasn't taken direct action to eradicate it. We know that He will. He has promised to do so. We know at the very least, God limits evil, God works against evil, and God does GOOD things, never evil things.
Click to expand...
If God did not want evil in the world, it would not be in the world.
 
Howie said:
If God did not want evil in the world, it would not be in the world.
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Adding. There is issues of character involved in this. When someone believes God can do anything, that doesn't take into account that God can't sin. This one single truth destroys the idea that God does everything. The actions God takes forces outcomes. Yet, they must be constructed based upon His own Divine Character. This limits any idea of what God does.
 
christ_undivided said:
Yeah it is. It is one of the things I admit is difficult to accept. Convince me that it isn't. I've tried for many years to reconcile my desires against what is written and I'm not there.
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We all make mistakes it is part of being.

However a death sentence for, say, the smallest infraction of the Law.

Then "being guilty of all the law" ..... i.e. like murder etc ... etc.

Is beyond, being beyond questionable.

Paul was looking for a new thing .....

So he made rather extreme arguments.

In the hope of something better.

However, for example, my stealing a piece of candy as a child; which I did, was not murder.
 
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