"genuine faith"

[BJ Bear]

Yes it certainly IS clear that you have no idea what is going on.

?

First, you are quoting a text with a well known textual corruption. Cherry picking is evidence of nothing.

Whose uninformed and unbelieving opinion are you citing in an attempt to poison the well of Scripture in this regard? If your assertion above is something you cooked up then please define how you are using the word "corruption" with regard to that passage and the measure you are using in claiming that it is so?

In the meantime, so everyone can follow along, take an English translation of the KJV and NASB and lay them side by side and compare the way they translate Mark 14:62. They are substantively the same.

The reason this is so is because they are both translating the same Greek text into the same language. In other words, the text of the TR (textus receptus) and the preferred text of the editors of the NA XXVII/UBS 4, the eclectic or critical text, of Matthew 14:62 are the same.

For everyone's convenience here are the English translations of Mark 14:62 in the KJV and NASB.

“And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.” (Mar 14:62, KJVA)

“And Jesus said, “I am; and you shall see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.”” (Mar 14:62, NASB)

For the stuff that may not interest others, check the apparatus of the NA XXVII or XXVIII regarding this passage. The variant readings cited are that there is a parallel account in the Gospels which inserts, "you have said it," and the word "coming" is omitted in the reference to the text of Daniel in D.

It should be clear now why the TR, the critical or eclectic text, AND the Majority Text agree on Mark 14:62.

Second, Jesus is alluding to Daniel 7 where Daniel is prophesying a son of man coming into the presence of his God.
Third, Jesus is talking about his exaltation where God will seat him at His right hand giving him all authority in heaven and on earth

Where is there anything indicating that "Jesus is God." Nowhere. Your vain imaginations did that.

What is the question which Jesus answered? It was are you THE son of the Blessed? In other words, are you THE Son of God? See Mark 14:61.

The high priest and the others respond to the answer of Jesus with "blasphemy!" and condemn Him. See Mark 14:63-64.


If you haven't yet read this post then please do so. If you do you will see what is missing in the interpretation you've been taught and why it's absence continually leads you astray in your interpretation of other passages regarding Jesus, yourself, and your salvation.

 

[Newbirth]

What is the question which Jesus answered? It was are you THE son of the Blessed? In other words, are you THE Son of God? See Mark 14:61.

and he said he is the son of God ...end of of discussion. He did not say he was God, which is what you are alluding to. In fact God said Jesus is his son. That destroys your argument that Jesus is God.

The high priest and the others respond to the answer of Jesus with "blasphemy!" and condemn Him. See Mark 14:63-64.

Which means they assumed that he was lying when he confirmed he is the son of God. Are you also assuming he was lying? Please explain your position as to why you conclude that Jesus is someone other that who he said he is.

 

[BJ Bear]

A brief demonstration of what Scripture says about sin and mankind who are born in in the normal or natural way.

“Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.” (Gen 6:5, NASB)

This excludes man from being righteous before God according to what they do. In other words, they had no chance of being righteous before God from their birth because of their work or works. This will become more explicit as we read through Scripture.

“The Lord smelled the soothing aroma; and the Lord said to Himself, “I will never again curse the ground on account of man, for the intent of man’s heart is evil from his youth; and I will never again destroy every living thing, as I have done.” (Gen 8:21, NASB)

The semantic range of the word translated as "youth" includes infancy. That is no surprise to anyone who reads and believes Genesis 6 and the rest of Scripture.

“The wicked are estranged from the womb; These who speak lies go astray from birth.” (Psa 58:3, NASB)

So Righteousness before God by works is excluded. Mankind born in the normal or natural way never had a chance to be right with God on account of their works.

That makes perfect sense since God's response or answer to the first sin or the original sin was a promise, the promise of the Seed, rather than a command. A promise depends on the one that gives it. In this case it is God who gives the promise, and man, the recipient, can only receive it through faith.

“Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.” (Gal 3:24, NASB)

So if someone should come and tell you of a second chance of you meriting or earning righteousness before God by a work of yours of any kind then you know that person is confused, Scripturally uninformed, or a son of hell looking to make you twice the son of hell that he is.

No matter where I read it from it still does not say anything about sharing names.

If a person knows the difference between singular and plural, for example, the difference between name and names then he should know that the command is to baptize in the name of..., rather than in the names of. Again, see Matthew 28:18-20.

 

[Newbirth]

A brief demonstration of what Scripture says about sin and mankind who are born in in the normal or natural way.

“Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.” (Gen 6:5, NASB)

This excludes man from being righteous before God according to what they do. In other words, they had no chance of being righteous before God from their birth because of their work or works. This will become more explicit as we read through Scripture.

“The Lord smelled the soothing aroma; and the Lord said to Himself, “I will never again curse the ground on account of man, for the intent of man’s heart is evil from his youth; and I will never again destroy every living thing, as I have done.” (Gen 8:21, NASB)

The semantic range of the word translated as "youth" includes infancy. That is no surprise to anyone who reads and believes Genesis 6 and the rest of Scripture.

“The wicked are estranged from the womb; These who speak lies go astray from birth.” (Psa 58:3, NASB)

So Righteousness before God by works is excluded. Mankind born in the normal or natural way never had a chance to be right with God on account of their works.

That makes perfect sense since God's response or answer to the first sin or the original sin was a promise, the promise of the Seed, rather than a command. A promise depends on the one that gives it. In this case it is God who gives the promise, and man, the recipient, can only receive it through faith.

“Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.” (Gal 3:24, NASB)

So if someone should come and tell you of a second chance of you meriting or earning righteousness before God by a work of yours of any kind then you know that person is confused, Scripturally uninformed, or a son of hell looking to make you twice the son of hell that he is.

What does that have to do with the topic?

If a person knows the difference between singular and plural, for example, the difference between name and names then he should know that the command is to baptize in the name of..., rather than in the names of. Again, see Matthew 28:18-20.

If a person knows how to read the bible they would know that none of the apostles used that formula to baptize anyone. Anyway what name are you talking about?

 

[Newbirth]

What is the question which Jesus answered? It was are you THE son of the Blessed? In other words, are you THE Son of God? See Mark 14:61.

The high priest and the others respond to the answer of Jesus with "blasphemy!" and condemn Him. See Mark 14:63-64.

The High priests were saying that Jesus was lying. Are you also saying that Jesus was lying? Jesus said he was the son of God... You are trying to convince people that Jesus was saying he was God.

If you haven't yet read this post then please do so.

Don't be sending anyone to a post ...send them the scripture where Jesus said "I am God" and I will send you one where jesus said he is the son of god.
John 10:36
Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

If you do you will see what is missing in the interpretation you've been taught and why it's absence continually leads you astray in your interpretation of other passages regarding Jesus, yourself, and your salvation.

Actually you are missing what Jesus actually said. Read it slowly...
John 10:36
Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
You are another pretender pretending to believe what Jesus said while promoting what your pope says.

 

[BMS]

The High priests were saying that Jesus was lying. Are you also saying that Jesus was lying? Jesus said he was the son of God... You are trying to convince people that Jesus was saying he was God.

Don't be sending anyone to a post ...send them the scripture where Jesus said "I am God" and I will send you one where jesus said he is the son of god.
John 10:36
Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

Actually you are missing what Jesus actually said. Read it slowly...
John 10:36
Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
You are another pretender pretending to believe what Jesus said while promoting what your pope says.

There are plenty of passages that show God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit, not least John 14-17

 

[BJ Bear]

No echo...just crickets

That is an illogical reply since the section of Scripture which contains what you ask for has been quoted and referenced multiple times. Is John chapter one not in your Bible? Or has someone convinced you of an uninformed illogical reason why Scripture doesn't mean what it says, or an equally uninformed illogical reason why the common English translation of John 1 is excluded from being a correct translation?

For the record, the section referred to is John chapter one. It begins, “1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2. He was in the beginning with God. 3. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being...” (Joh 1:1-3..., NASB)

A person can read substantively the same claim from the mouth of Jesus regarding Himself in John 5.

“17. But He answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working.” 18. For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.

The Jews who heard Him and were seeking the more to kill Him rightly understood Him. They understood that what Jesus said made Him equal to God.

Remember John 1? In the beginning the Word was with God and was God....And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us...

Remember John one as you read the next passage in John 5. 19. Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.” (Joh 5:17-19, NASB)

Jesús affirms His equality with God rather than deny it or claim to be greater or lesser than God. His explanation is that He does what He sees the Father doing, because whatever the Father does Jesus does in like manner.

Are you serious? The father isn't the father of old? So how many fathers are you talking about ?

Scripture is seious. God doesn't change. The everlasting Father isn't a father apart from, or without, the Son the Word, who was in the beginning and through Whom all things were made. See John 1.

Who cares clearly Jesus is not his father God

The one true God wants you and all other men in this world to care and believe. It is a matter of your and all men's eternal life or eternal condemnation.

According to Scripture, Jesus is not His father, yet He is God. See John 1, 5, 17 and the rest of Scripture.

The above provides some of the reasons why your objection that you know you are not your daddy so Jesus can't be God is contrary to Scripture and illogical. Surely you realize that neither you or your daddy are the Creator, the one through whom all things were made, and that both of you have human fathers.

 

[Our Lord's God]

There are plenty of passages that show God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit, not least John 14-17

Um, NO.

 

[Newbirth]

There are plenty of passages that show God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit, not least John 14-17

Nope there isn't any passage that says that. The passages say The father is God ....the son is the son of God and the HS is the spirit of God.

 

[Newbirth]

That is an illogical reply since the section of Scripture which contains what you ask for has been quoted and referenced multiple times. Is John chapter one not in your Bible?

Jn 1 does not say Jesus is God. Your misunderstanding of the scripture say that. Do you agree that Jesus said he was ascending to his God?

Or has someone convinced you of an uninformed illogical reason why Scripture doesn't mean what it says, or an equally uninformed illogical reason why the common English translation of John 1 is excluded from being a correct translation?

It is illogical to say that Jesus is God when his father is God.

For the record, the section referred to is John chapter one. It begins, “1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2. He was in the beginning with God. 3. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being...” (Joh 1:1-3..., NASB)

For the record Jesus said he was ascending to his God.
John 20:17
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

A person can read substantively the same claim from the mouth of Jesus regarding Himself in John 5.

“17. But He answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working.” 18. For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.

Definitely not the same claim...
So you believe the Jews killed God? Didn't he call God his father?

The Jews who heard Him and were seeking the more to kill Him rightly understood Him. They understood that what Jesus said made Him equal to God.

Then that would be two Gods it takes two in order to be equal with...

Remember John 1? In the beginning the Word was with God and was God....And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us...

First you are saying that someone was with God then you are saying the someone who was with God was God. Clearly you are teaching two Gods. God with God.

Remember John one as you read the next passage in John 5. 19. Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.” (Joh 5:17-19, NASB)

So you are actually teaching two Gods. Your God the son is seeing his God the father. You are a polytheist.

Jesús affirms His equality with God rather than deny it or claim to be greater or lesser than God. His explanation is that He does what He sees the Father doing, because whatever the Father does Jesus does in like manner.

Again it takes more than one to contrast equality...You have more than one God.

Scripture is seious. God doesn't change. The everlasting Father isn't a father apart from, or without, the Son the Word, who was in the beginning and through Whom all things were made. See John 1.

Well according to you he changed from one into two.

The one true God wants you and all other men in this world to care and believe.

one true God is the father

It is a matter of your and all men's eternal life or eternal condemnation.

Yes the one true god sent his son to die for our sins...

According to Scripture, Jesus is not His father, yet He is God. See John 1, 5, 17 and the rest of Scripture.

Therefore he is another God apart from his father . So you are a polytheist.

The above provides some of the reasons why your objection that you know you are not your daddy so Jesus can't be God is contrary to Scripture and illogical.

How is that illogical? Can Jesus be his daddy?

Surely you realize that neither you or your daddy are the Creator, the one through whom all things were made, and that both of you have human fathers.

How does that help your argument? Doesn't Jesus have a father? Didn't Jesus say the only true God is his father?

 

[BMS]

Jn 1 does not say Jesus is God. Your misunderstanding of the scripture say that. Do you agree that Jesus said he was ascending to his God?

It is illogical to say that Jesus is God when his father is God.

For the record Jesus said he was ascending to his God.
John 20:17
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Definitely not the same claim...
So you believe the Jews killed God? Didn't he call God his father?

Then that would be two Gods it takes two in order to be equal with...

First you are saying that someone was with God then you are saying the someone who was with God was God. Clearly you are teaching two Gods. God with God.

So you are actually teaching two Gods. Your God the son is seeing his God the father. You are a polytheist.

Again it takes more than one to contrast equality...You have more than one God.

Well according to you he changed from one into two.

one true God is the father

Yes the one true god sent his son to die for our sins...

Therefore he is another God apart from his father . So you are a polytheist.

How is that illogical? Can Jesus be his daddy?

How does that help your argument? Doesn't Jesus have a father? Didn't Jesus say the only true God is his father?

John 14-17 describes it. Its impossible to draw another conclusion
John 8:57-59

57 “You are not yet fifty years old,” they said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”
58 “Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” 59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.

 

[Newbirth]

John 14-17 describes it. Its impossible to draw another conclusion

Nothing in Jn 14:17 says Jesus is God. Why don't you believe Jesus? He said his father is the only true God.

 

[BMS]

Nothing in Jn 14:17 says Jesus is God. Why don't you believe Jesus? He said his father is the only true God.

Never said it did. But since Jesus is in the Father and the Father in Jesus. Jesus says if you have seen Jesus you have seen the Father.
'so that the Father may be glorified in the Son."

 

[Our Lord's God]

Never said it did. But since Jesus is in the Father and the Father in Jesus.

God the Father is in believers and believers are in Him.

Jesus says if you have seen Jesus you have seen the Father.

And?

'so that the Father may be glorified in the Son."

Haven't read Matthew 5:14-16 yet?

“You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden; 15 nor does someone light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on the lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. 16 Let your light shine before men so that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.

My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit. - Jesus

 

[Newbirth]

John 14-17 describes it. Its impossible to draw another conclusion

Describes what? That Jesus is another God who is equal with God?

John 8:57-59

57 “You are not yet fifty years old,” they said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”
58 “Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” 59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.

That does not say Jesus is God...Did he say he was God?

 

[Newbirth]

Never said it did.

So what are you saying?

But since Jesus is in the Father and the Father in Jesus.

Believers are in Jesus and Jesus is in us believers...Does that make anyone else Jesus?
John 15:4
Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

Jesus says if you have seen Jesus you have seen the Father.

Of course he is the image of his father isn't he?
2 Corinthians 4:4
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

'so that the Father may be glorified in the Son."

Yes the son does what the father tells him to do. Nothing you claim says Jesus is God...In fact they prove that Jesus is not God.

 

[BMS]

Describes what? That Jesus is another God who is equal with God?

That does not say Jesus is God...Did he say he was God?

It doesnt say the exact phrase you want, but nor does it say 'Jesus is another God' nor does it say 'God is equal with God'
These passages are how Christianity knows the Trinity, God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
Your thinking is more like Islam

 

[Mod10]

I am going to lock this thread. It has become entirely about the Trinity, instead of the OP. There are too many posts to move to the Trinity board. In the future, take the discussion of the Trinity to the Trinity board. This board is for debating Lutheran beliefs. Thank you.