Gift of the Bed

[BJ Bear]

8:37Isn't required to prove you are in error. All that is needed is Ephesians 2:8 and 9. We are saved by grace through faith. it is a gift from God. NOT of works.

That too is illogical and demonstrably false according to Matthew 28:19-20. The imperative to,"disciple," or, "make disciples," is said to the already baptized disciples who were to go out baptizing and teaching. Again, the recipents of the commanded baptizing and teaching are passive. This makes it impossible for it to be a work of the recipients.

Just as it is simply obtuse and false to say Scripture says or implies that, "I must not teach this person because I don't think he is a believer or disciple," so it is also simply obtuse and false to say Scripture says or implies that, "I must not baptize this person because I don't think he is a believer or disciple."

 

[Saxon]

That too is illogical and demonstrably false according to Matthew 28:19-20. The imperative to,"disciple," or, "make disciples," is said to the already baptized disciples who were to go out baptizing and teaching. Again, the recipents of the commanded baptizing and teaching are passive. This makes it impossible for it to be a work of the recipients.

Just as it is simply obtuse and false to say Scripture says or implies that, "I must not teach this person because I don't think he is a believer or disciple," so it is also simply obtuse and false to say Scripture says or implies that, "I must not baptize this person because I don't think he is a believer or disciple."

So you are claiming that scripture is illogical. You are illogical.

 

[Abounds]

8:37Isn't required to prove you are in error. All that is needed is Ephesians 2:8 and 9. We are saved by grace through faith. it is a gift from God. NOT of works.

Baptism is not a work.

Refuting clear scripture proves you are in error.

Let me guess a pastor can lead a worship service and everyone goes up to pray and sing, then the pastor comes and slays them in the holy spirit. But you can't receive the holy spirit in baptism? Even though the Bible explicitly says so?

You keep "interpreting".

 

[BJ Bear]

So you are claiming that scripture is illogical. You are illogical.

No, I am merely pointing out what Scripture actually says in this regard and that the specific interpretive claims of some in this regard are illogical, false, and without Scriptural merit.

If someone somewhere somehow ever comes up with a valid scriptural objection to infant baptism, or that baptism does now save you through the resurrection of Christ, then it isn't going to be that these things are contrary to being saved by grace through faith not works.

 

[Nic]

A father and a son, along with the father’s brother lived together in a comfortable and well-established home. They were without need and desired to be as helpful as they could in their community.

One day the father told his son about a family that lived just down the road a few miles. He had learned that the family of 3 had no bed for any of the occupants. The father asked the son if he would be willing to sacrifice his large bed for their neighbours. The son immediately agreed to let his bed go to the family down the road.

The son immediately removed the bedding from the bed and started the process of cleaning and repairing any damage and signs of wear. It was a large bed so during the days that the fixing cleaning of the bed, the son would sleep on the floor.

Finally, when all the work was completed by the son, his uncle came with a long box half ton and put the now repaired and cleaned disassembled bed into the vehicle. He took some time to write the assembly instructions for the new owners of the bed on how to assemble it after they got it into their house. Along with the instructions the uncle put in a box, the few tools that would be needed to assemble it and some new sheets, blankets and pillows to complete the gift. He also wrote a letter to the family down the road; a letter to explain to who and why the gift was offered. He wanted to reassure them that the gift was for their benefit.

The bed was delivered and left in the yard close to a large side door. When the family arrive home and found the bed and the box containing the tools, bedding and the writings they were suspicious and carefully inspected the items found at their side door. After finding and reading the instructions and the letter of explanation They all agreed that they should accept the generous gift. This was the first night that they had ever experienced a good, restful night’s sleep.

A question. Which of the following acts was responsible for the good night’s sleep, the love of the father to the family down the road, the sacrifice of the son, the delivery of the bed and the letter that convinced the family that the offered gift was going to be good for them or the family accepting the gift and following the written instructions?

If the love of the father was not there it would not have happened. If the sacrifice of the son was not made it would not have happened. If the uncle had not convinced the family that the gift as a legitimate gift offered to them it would not have happened. If the family had rejected the gift, it would not have happened.

I would like to submit that the father, son and uncle did an act of grace. The family had grace to receive the gift. It should be noted that the family received the gift before the work of reassembly of the bed had begun. What was responsible for the goodnight’s sleep was by grace alone.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 not of works, lest any man should boast.

Hi Saxon. I see the deeds, the acts, the works as gracious or loving in character but they are nonetheless works. I'm reminded of what a pastor or two has said in the past to me, God doesn't need our good works but our neighbor does.
Thanks for the illustrative narrative, it paints a nice picture.
Picking up where you left off in Ephesians seems to clarify.
Ephesians 2:10 (ESV)

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

 

[Saxon]

Hi Saxon. I see the deeds, the acts, the works as gracious or loving in character but they are nonetheless works. I'm reminded of what a pastor or two has said in the past to me, God doesn't need our good works but our neighbor does.
Thanks for the illustrative narrative, it paints a nice picture.
Picking up where you left off in Ephesians seems to clarify.
Ephesians 2:10 (ESV)

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

I should have added Ephesians 2:10. I do believe that we are to do the good works that God prepared but the good works are not to gain or maintain our salvation. As Christians, we are obligated to do the good works because that is what Christians do. I refer to it as living the Christian life.

If I were to be a truck driver I would think that it would be reasonable that I would drive a truck. If I were to stop driving a truck, I would no longer be considered a truck driver, and in fact I would not be a truck driver. The same would be true if we were to stop living a Christian lifestyle.

 

[Nic]

[1] I should have added Ephesians 2:10. I do believe that we are to do the good works that God prepared but the good works are not to gain or maintain our salvation.[2] As Christians, we are obligated to do the good works because that is what Christians do.[3] I refer to it as living the Christian life.

If I were to be a truck driver I would think that it would be reasonable that I would drive a truck. [4] If I were to stop driving a truck, I would no longer be considered a truck driver, and in fact I would not be a truck driver. [5] The same would be true if we were to stop living a Christian lifestyle.

[1] True
[2] "Obligated" is either a poor or wrong word choice, Christians are "obligated" to be as holy as God; spells LAW. Now to say something of the effect, "the power of Christ constrains me", then that would a way to express sanctification without that sense of putting God's gospel on your shoulders while appreciating what we would do naturally, which is sin -sinners sin. Now I would commend your added rightly understood details in the above with "gain or maintain."🙂
This too may help you keep answers in a clear manner. Christians honor and responds to God's promises with faith. Christians honor and respond to God's laws out of loving gratitude.
[3] Which is nothing but the law, just so we are all on the same page.
[4] & [5] I see what you are saying, but the analogy like most if not all, isn't w/out problems. Consider the life long Christian with dementia who has become intolerable and hateful. Their salvation isn't predicated on how well the recall faith and not sin and choose love. Being a Christian isn't based on what we do, but our identity in Christ. As far as what goes hand in hand with being identified as a Christian; a lifestyle of repentance and faith. Neither of which are works and both are gifts. God is the author and cause of both. He works repentance in your heart with His law and the Holy Spirit and then His gift faith (abiding confidence in the one Who made the promise fulfills the promise) clings to Him and rests confidently and securely in His rescue. Is it right to understand Christians should meditate on God's law. Surely it is. In fact we are to uphold, obey, keep, guard, but in no way do we ever tie "obligation" to do so. In gratitude yes, we love because he first loved us. Love is another work for works. Attaching "obligation" blurrs the Christian identity with works or commits the same errors of Roman Catholicism in conflating the two.

Nice post, thank you!
Nic🙂

 

[Nic]

I should have added Ephesians 2:10. I do believe that we are to do the good works that God prepared but the good works are not to gain or maintain our salvation. As Christians, we are obligated to do the good works because that is what Christians do. I refer to it as living the Christian life.

If I were to be a truck driver I would think that it would be reasonable that I would drive a truck. If I were to stop driving a truck, I would no longer be considered a truck driver, and in fact I would not be a truck driver. The same would be true if we were to stop living a Christian lifestyle.

My like of course is w/ prejudice, but you mentioned some more good things to note and comment.🙂

 

[Saxon]

[1] True
[2] "Obligated" is either a poor or wrong word choice, Christians are "obligated" to be as holy as God; spells LAW. Now to say something of the effect, "the power of Christ constrains me", then that would a way to express sanctification without that sense of putting God's gospel on your shoulders while appreciating what we would do naturally, which is sin -sinners sin. Now I would commend your added rightly understood details in the above with "gain or maintain."🙂
This too may help you keep answers in a clear manner. Christians honor and responds to God's promises with faith. Christians honor and respond to God's laws out of loving gratitude.

John 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

Colossians 1:23 if ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

1 John 2:24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.

I think that you are confusing obedience with law. The if condition obligates us. We can't commit to a Christian life and not be obligated to live the life. Being obligated is not following the law, it is what is needed to be the Christian God wants us to be. As you pointed out Ephesians 2:10 that we have works to do that God has ordained that we do them. Are we not obligated to do them because we are walking in he salvation? Not to become saved or maintain our salvation.

[3] Which is nothing but the law, just so we are all on the same page.
[4] & [5] I see what you are saying, but the analogy like most if not all, isn't w/out problems. Consider the life long Christian with dementia who has become intolerable and hateful. Their salvation isn't predicated on how well the recall faith and not sin and choose love. Being a Christian isn't based on what we do, but our identity in Christ. As far as what goes hand in hand with being identified as a Christian; a lifestyle of repentance and faith. Neither of which are works and both are gifts. God is the author and cause of both. He works repentance in your heart with His law and the Holy Spirit and then His gift faith (abiding confidence in the one Who made the promise fulfills the promise) clings to Him and rests confidently and securely in His rescue. Is it right to understand Christians should meditate on God's law. Surely it is. In fact we are to uphold, obey, keep, guard, but in no way do we ever tie "obligation" to do so. In gratitude yes, we love because he first loved us. Love is another work for works. Attaching "obligation" blurrs the Christian identity with works or commits the same errors of Roman Catholicism in conflating the two.

Nice post, thank you!
Nic🙂

The Christian with dementia is not our problem as it is completely out of our control. Have faith in God (See Genesis 18:25) The gift is salvation. Once we are saved the time to work is upon us. God didn't say living in salvation would be without works. Ephesians 2:10, after salvation is given, it is stated that there are works that God wants us to do. And again these works are not to become saved or maintain our salvation, but living the Christian life. Obligation is the correct term, it is a stronger term than commitment, but they carry the same meaning and essence.

Genesis 18:25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

 

[Saxon]

My like of course is w/ prejudice, but you mentioned some more good things to note and comment.🙂

Thank you very much for this comment.

 

[Nic]

John 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

Colossians 1:23 if ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

1 John 2:24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.

I think that you are confusing obedience with law. The if condition obligates us. We can't commit to a Christian life and not be obligated to live the life. Being obligated is not following the law, it is what is needed to be the Christian God wants us to be. As you pointed out Ephesians 2:10 that we have works to do that God has ordained that we do them. Are we not obligated to do them because we are walking in he salvation? Not to become saved or maintain our salvation.

The Christian with dementia is not our problem as it is completely out of our control. Have faith in God (See Genesis 18:25) The gift is salvation. Once we are saved the time to work is upon us. God didn't say living in salvation would be without works. Ephesians 2:10, after salvation is given, it is stated that there are works that God wants us to do. And again these works are not to become saved or maintain our salvation, but living the Christian life. Obligation is the correct term, it is a stronger term than commitment, but they carry the same meaning and essence.

Genesis 18:25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

The word "if" is one of two small words that destroys justification by grace alone through faith alone. That's fine if that's your position, but that is identical with Roman Catholicism. Roman Catholicism embraces law as gospel and you are advocating the same, despite how many words your write to the contrary, your "if" and "obligation" make you no different than RCism. Salvational isn't conditional on anything we do or bring to the table. The gift of faith is not revoked because of dementia or for any reason.

 

[Nic]

John 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

Colossians 1:23 if ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

1 John 2:24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.

I think that you are confusing obedience with law. The if condition obligates us. We can't commit to a Christian life and not be obligated to live the life. Being obligated is not following the law, it is what is needed to be the Christian God wants us to be. As you pointed out Ephesians 2:10 that we have works to do that God has ordained that we do them. Are we not obligated to do them because we are walking in he salvation? Not to become saved or maintain our salvation.

The Christian with dementia is not our problem as it is completely out of our control. Have faith in God (See Genesis 18:25) The gift is salvation. Once we are saved the time to work is upon us. God didn't say living in salvation would be without works. Ephesians 2:10, after salvation is given, it is stated that there are works that God wants us to do. And again these works are not to become saved or maintain our salvation, but living the Christian life. Obligation is the correct term, it is a stronger term than commitment, but they carry the same meaning and essence.

Genesis 18:25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

The word "if" is one of two small words that destroys justification by grace alone through faith alone. That's fine if that's your position, but that is identical with Roman Catholicism. Roman Catholicism embraces law as gospel and you are advocating the same, despite how many words your write to the contrary, your "if" and "obligation" make you no different than RCism. Salvational isn't conditional on anything we do or bring to the table. Christian love says our neighbors are our problem, Christian or otherwise. Can we manipulate salvation like the Charles Finney says? Heaven forbid.
p.s.
Commitment is every bit as wrong as obligation, that's Roman Catholicism
[i.e. LAW].

 

[Saxon]

The word "if" is one of two small words that destroys justification by grace alone through faith alone. That's fine if that's your position, but that is identical with Roman Catholicism. Roman Catholicism embraces law as gospel and you are advocating the same, despite how many words your write to the contrary, your "if" and "obligation" make you no different than RCism. Salvational isn't conditional on anything we do or bring to the table. Christian love says our neighbors are our problem, Christian or otherwise. Can we manipulate salvation like the Charles Finney says? Heaven forbid.
p.s.
Commitment is every bit as wrong as obligation, that's Roman Catholicism
[i.e. LAW].

What do you suggest John and Paul were getting at with the word "if"?

Are you saying that you become a Christian and then not function as a Christian. That sounds like a Pharisee on a Saturday when Jesus healed someone. I fail to see the problem that you seem to see. No I am not a RC.

 

[Nic]

What do you suggest John and Paul were getting at with the word "if"?

Are you saying that you become a Christian and then not function as a Christion. That sounds like a Pharisee on a Saturday when Jesus healed someone. I fail to see the problem that you seem to see. No I am not a RC.

Context is everything. Were they defining or discussing justification? 🧐 🤔

The problem is RC is all Law. Wesleyan holiness entities tend to blend [conflate] law and Gospel. It's important to distinguish [rightly dividing word] between law and Gospel [promise].

I didn't say you were RC but rather your theology on this matter is the same.

 

[Saxon]

Context is everything. Were they defining or discussing justification? 🧐 🤔

Demonstrate the context of justification. Justification is NOT salvation.

The problem is RC is all Law. Wesleyan holiness entities tend to blend [conflate] law and Gospel. It's important to distinguish [rightly dividing word] between law and Gospel [promise].

I didn't say you were RC but rather your theology on this matter is the same.

The law was fulfilled by Christ. I fail to see that living the Christian life is participating in the law. We are to obey Christ, or is that out too?

 

[Nic]

Demonstrate the context of justification. Justification is NOT salvation.

The law was fulfilled by Christ. I fail to see that living the Christian life is participating in the law. We are to obey Christ, or is that out too?

Justification SEE Romans 7 -8.
Being proclaimed not guilty ends with you being condemned? Come again?
The Gospel in its strictest sense would be, while we were yet sinners Christ died for us. The Gospel not in the strict sense includes Christian living. The gospel in the widest sense includes what I wrote in the strict sense above plus all law. Anything outside of the strict sense of what God has done for us, is always LAW. Take a pure Gospel statement and add the smallest amount of law to it and it renders that entire statement as nothing but law. That's why "if" is a dangerous word to overlook in theological context.
We are called / commanded to be as holy as God, are you there yet? Of course not! Can you get there? Not by what you can do. Hear this, I'm not saying we shouldn't be sanctified. Christians should observe, meditate, gnaw, chew, digest his law and use it as a mirror, guide or curb in their lives. Where did I say something was out? Or did you miss my specific qualifiers. Theology needs to be specific or errors and misunderstandings ensue.

 

[Saxon]

Justification SEE Romans 7 -8.
Being proclaimed not guilty ends with you being condemned? Come again?

After you are justified you have to wait until the judge declares you not guilty. Being justified leads to a not guilty verdict. Salvation is for those that are justified. Salvation is by grace, not justification. Justification is a step toward salvation.

The Gospel in its strictest sense would be, while we were yet sinners Christ died for us. The Gospel not in the strict sense includes Christian living.

If you are not going to live a Christian life what is the purpose of salvation. Jesus died so we could continue in sin! Come again??

The gospel in the widest sense includes what I wrote in the strict sense above plus all law. Anything outside of the strict sense of what God has done for us, is always LAW. Take a pure Gospel statement and add the smallest amount of law to it and it renders that entire statement as nothing but law. That's why "if" is a dangerous word to overlook in theological context.

Gospel plus the law?? what are you saying? You accuse me of adding law and you now say "plus" law. Your gyro is toppling!

We are called / commanded to be as holy as God, are you there yet? Of course not! Can you get there? Not by what you can do. Hear this, I'm not saying we shouldn't be sanctified.

This does not make sense. Please rephrase.

Justification SEE Romans 7 -8.
Being proclaimed not guilty ends with you being condemned? Come again?
The Gospel in its strictest sense would be, while we were yet sinners Christ died for us. The Gospel not in the strict sense includes Christian living. The gospel in the widest sense includes what I wrote in the strict sense above plus all law. Anything outside of the strict sense of what God has done for us, is always LAW. Take a pure Gospel statement and add the smallest amount of law to it and it renders that entire statement as nothing but law. That's why "if" is a dangerous word to overlook in theological context.
We are called / commanded to be as holy as God, are you there yet? Of course not! Can you get there? Not by what you can do. Hear this, I'm not saying we shouldn't be sanctified.

Point out the context of the term Justification in regards to the "if" verses . You haven't done that.

You seem to be saying that as a Christian you are to role over and play dead because if you actually attempt to live a Christian life you are somehow trying to live the law. I really do not know where you are coming from or where you think you are going????

 

[Nic]

After you are justified you have to wait until the judge declares you not guilty. Being justified leads to a not guilty verdict. Salvation is for those that are justified. Salvation is by grace, not justification. Justification is a step toward salvation.

If you are not going to live a Christian life what is the purpose of salvation. Jesus died so we could continue in sin! Come again??

Gospel plus the law?? what are you saying? You accuse me of adding law and you now say "plus" law. Your gyro is toppling!

This does not make sense. Please rephrase.

Point out the context of the term Justification in regards to the "if" verses . You haven't done that.

You seem to be saying that as a Christian you are to role over and play dead because if you actually attempt to live a Christian life you are somehow trying to live the law. I really do not know where you are coming from or where you think you are going????

A few thoughts.
I wasn't attempting to prove anything but pass along helpful information with problems I see with your position.
I already told you, you were welcome to your view but I was trying to explain how it is not dissimilar from Roman Catholicism.
You need to try reading my replies to you again, I would just be repeating myself here. You can have your point on justification not synonymous with salvation, I don't believe I said they were the same. I think it's wanting to try to separate justification and all that entails from salvation. On the other blending sanctification with justification is the Roman way to do theology. Go ahead, my brother is Roman Catholic and my mom 85 w/ dementia in my care and I watch the Mass on TV three or four times everyday. We also both make the sign of the cross and say the Lord's prayer several times throughout the day and night. I choose to sidestep any prayers addressed to anyone except God, but we say additional prayers that may be too Catholic for some, but nonetheless orthodox. We even pray prayers concerning sleep, death and comfort. We even talk about death and Jesus. If I didn't know any better, I'd swear she was a Christian. Oh wait she is and she shares your blended view of sanctification and justification.
End of part 1.gtg

 

[Nic]

After you are justified...

Hi Saxon, I'm exceedingly tired this evening. I'll leave you what many across denominational lines have received favorably on these various points that have come up.

 

[Nic]

If you are not going to live a Christian life what is the purpose of salvation. Jesus died so we could continue in sin! Come again??

I never, not once, ever said we shouldn't live a Christian life. My emphasis has been repeatedly sanctification and justification should remain separate and distinct. I've also repeatedly noted that when a person blends the two, they are doing theology the Roman Catholic way. In other words if you lived at the time of the reformation, you would not side with the reformers on this point, but Rome. Again, I say that's fine, I simply disagree with the position.
The chief purpose of salvation is being redeemed / saved by God and his word, salvation itself. All else is secondary to that point.
I've also never stated Jesus died so that we can sin. I won't levee the strawman criticism because maybe that's what you actually made of my comments, but if that were truly as I believed then may God have mercy on me and lead me out of that God denying, God despising doctrine. You should be hearing from me Christians should curb their sin and walk in repentance and faith as a lifestyle, but please don't confuse sanctification and justification in the process.

Gospel plus the law?? what are you saying? You accuse me of adding law and you now say "plus" law. Your gyro is toppling!

When we as Christians refer to the word of God w/ scripture in mind, we frequently use shorthand and say the bible. Another shorthand for the entire message is sometimes referred to as the greatest story ever told. Still yet there are numerous shorthand expressions. Another is the message yet another is the gospel. This aforemention gospel reference should be understood as a broaden category rather than perhaps more commonly understood use of the same word gospel reserved for what Christ has done for us. The latter could be paraphrased in some semblance to the following. The sinless God-man Christ was born, lived, died, rose to redeem sinners, etc. The former broaden use presents God's law packaged with some use an alien use of the word 'grace' to refer to the rescue itself. Which fundamentals also sometimes call the 'gospel of grace.' Think Ray Comfort & Kurt Cameron w/ The Way of the Master evangelization methods and then they present the rescue. That's what I mean when one says gospel to mean just the rescue (what Christ has done for us) plus law vs a delivery of a message with the rescue alone. The rescue is the gospel in the strict sense (While we were yet sinners Christ died for us). The fuller (broader) message is God's law revealing your a sinner, your need of Christ to save you from death, plus the rescue. The fuller message contains both law and gospel (grace) as it should but at times is also known as the gospel. As Ray & Kurt (presumably you know these guys) say, one don't seek a physician unless one knows their sick. Let me know if that helps.
End of part 2. (more to come)
Please forgive the repetitive nature, but up to this point you haven't read me well and I can own much of that, I'm sorry for being less clear previously.
Blessings.
Nic 🙂