Gifts of the Spirit.

Chalcedon

Well-known member
I never caught on to why y'all were so upset. Could you explain Kenosis?
Jesus was not fully God and like the creeds say truly God for 33 years and divested Himself of His Divine Attributes for 33 years .

So it denies His Deity at the same time denying the Trinity since one Person was not fully God.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Jesus was not fully God and like the creeds say truly God for 33 years and divested Himself of His Divine Attributes for 33 years .

So it denies His Deity at the same time denying the Trinity since one Person was not fully God.
Thanks...

God does not change, so the Logos of God can't stop being the God...
 

Chalcedon

Well-known member

Chalcedon

Well-known member
And this from bible.org


The question, which shall be repeated later is "of what did Christ empty Himself?" The teachers of Kenosis say that what Christ did was to "empty Himself of all power."

The doctrinal area in which we are dealing is not academic, it involves the very heart and center of our faith. It is also not just a matter for scholars, but is for all of us. Kenotic teaching has become prominent in charismatic circles, and is the basis for much of what they promulgate. Indeed, much of the weird theology that surrounds the so-called "faith" movement is based on a Kenotic understanding of the incarnation, combined with a new-age-like leap of logic that says that since Jesus left His powers and attributes behind and lived as a mere man, we born-again believers are ". . . just as much an Incarnation of God as Jesus was" (Kenneth Copeland)

In another leap of logic, these teachers move then to the Mormon-like doctrine of apotheosis (we are little Gods). This trend so concerned Walter Martin that the last thing he wrote before going home to be with the Lord was a contribution to a book refuting these theological trends among TV evangelists.1 This paper on Kenosis is not a detailed analysis, but is instead an expanded outline with footnotes, covering these major areas:

  • The Doctrine of Kenosis This part of the paper includes reference material that traces this view to the 19th-century German liberal theologians that first promulgated the Kenotic teaching, and compares it with modern Kenotic teaching.
  • The orthodox position on Christ's humiliation. Includes quotations from noted Evangelical Scholars on the subject.
  • A Critical Refutation of the Kenosis doctrine.
  • An alternative method of handling the "problem verses" without deviating from orthodox Christology.

 

Chalcedon

Well-known member
The OP is charismatic and believes the same heresy which is how you know the real biblical gifts of the spirit she does not have.
 

tbeachhead

Well-known member
Yes it denies an essential truth about God being Immutable.
I really hesitate to bop in, but you inadvertently got thrown with your misgivings and misunderstanding to the Charismatic board to lodge your complaints.

To me, on an historic basis, the term "heretic" is a Roman construct, conveniently fueling the Jesus wars that made a mockery of the Church, and Jesus' only new commandment. It's a convenient wall to prevent dialog and understanding. On these forums, I've been called a "Pelagianist..." I had to look it up. It goes back to the days that the Maryolator Augustine, great (meaning "accepted by Rome") Christian theologian that he was, charged Pelagius with heresy, and won the upper hand, though the council never actually ruled against Pelagius. History shows that the "heretic" Pelagius left the West, and there is good evidence that he brought the gospel of Jesus Christ even all the way to Japan. In the meantime, he was dismissed by Rome, and all our "historians" as a "heretic."

Let me walk lightly, in the area of the "immutability" of the Godhead...Do you believe Jesus died? Do you believe he "gave up the Spirit?" Do you believe He commended His Spirit to the Father, as He said on the cross...or was he being strangely symbolic, since all that is impossible if Jesus did not at any point relinquish immortality. His sacrifice, in fact, becomes mute...because God cannot suffer, be beaten or bruised on anyone's behalf...

Do you agree that the flesh is anything but immutable? Well, then, do you believe that the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us? Do you believe Jesus clothed Himself with mortality?

Briefly, we believe, because Jesus Himself said so, that He did what He did on the earth because He was the son of Man (e.g. the Son of Adam, see Ezekiel and the prophets)...He was Adam's heir and waged Adam's war to restore Adam's dominion. He the last Adam, and that is no error. We also teach that it could not have been otherwise, because the "gifts and the calling of God are without repentance."

Your theories, in fact, lead to a heresy that is strangely Muhammedan. Their 'Isa (Jesus) could not possibly die. As I see it, your own dogma has created an immortal Jesus Who is incapable of dying, and therefore unable to die in our place...to redeem us. You lessen the offering.
 

Chalcedon

Well-known member
I really hesitate to bop in, but you inadvertently got thrown with your misgivings and misunderstanding to the Charismatic board to lodge your complaints.

To me, on an historic basis, the term "heretic" is a Roman construct, conveniently fueling the Jesus wars that made a mockery of the Church, and Jesus' only new commandment. It's a convenient wall to prevent dialog and understanding. On these forums, I've been called a "Pelagianist..." I had to look it up. It goes back to the days that the Maryolator Augustine, great (meaning "accepted by Rome") Christian theologian that he was, charged Pelagius with heresy, and won the upper hand, though the council never actually ruled against Pelagius. History shows that the "heretic" Pelagius left the West, and there is good evidence that he brought the gospel of Jesus Christ even all the way to Japan. In the meantime, he was dismissed by Rome, and all our "historians" as a "heretic."

Let me walk lightly, in the area of the "immutability" of the Godhead...Do you believe Jesus died? Do you believe he "gave up the Spirit?" Do you believe He commended His Spirit to the Father, as He said on the cross...or was he being strangely symbolic, since all that is impossible if Jesus did not at any point relinquish immortality. His sacrifice, in fact, becomes mute...because God cannot suffer, be beaten or bruised on anyone's behalf...

Do you agree that the flesh is anything but immutable? Well, then, do you believe that the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us? Do you believe Jesus clothed Himself with mortality?

Briefly, we believe, because Jesus Himself said so, that He did what He did on the earth because He was the son of Man (e.g. the Son of Adam, see Ezekiel and the prophets)...He was Adam's heir and waged Adam's war to restore Adam's dominion. He the last Adam, and that is no error. We also teach that it could not have been otherwise, because the "gifts and the calling of God are without repentance."

Your theories, in fact, lead to a heresy that is strangely Muhammedan. Their 'Isa (Jesus) could not possibly die. As I see it, your own dogma has created an immortal Jesus Who is incapable of dying, and therefore unable to die in our place...to redeem us. You lessen the offering.
The Hypostatic Union addresses everything regarding the 2 Natures in Christ, the Trinity and Immutability. I put this together back on the old CARM forums for those who denied Christ was fully God and kenosis false teachers, unitarians, JW's etc......

1. Jesus is a person. (1 Tim 2:5)

2. Jesus, the Person, has two natures- Divine and human (John 1:1, 14, 1 Timothy 3:16): Divine and human. This is the Hypostatic Union.( Col 2:9, Heb 1:3,2:16)

3. The Communicatio Idiomatum (Communication of the Properties) states that the attributes of His Divine nature and human nature are both ascribed to the one Person of Jesus. So Jesus can exhibit attributes of Divinity (Omnipresence, Omniscience, Omnipotence, . John 2:23, 3:13, 8:58, He was prayed to in Acts 7:59, John 14:13, He was is worshiped Matt 2:2:11, Rev 5:13-14) and at the same time exhibit attributes of His humanity( He was tempted, ate, prayed,wept, grew in wisdom and stature,was anointed,was baptized, the Father was greater, didn’t know the day or the hour of His Return, He cried My God my God why has Thou forsaken Me, He died etc.). The communicatio idiomatum does not mean that any part of the Divine nature was communicated to the human nature.


4.The Man(anthropos) Jesus is what we perceive (if we were there 2000 years ago in Israel) and through the Man we encounter the Divine nature (Jesus knowing all things, is on earth while in heaven, answers prayer, forgiving sins, etc.).

5. The Person of Jesus will always be both Divine and human. (John 1:1,14,20:28, 1 John 5:20, 1 Timothy 2:5) Those who deny this fact are the spirit of antichrist. (1 John 4:1-4,2 John 7)

6. The Divine Nature is within the Trinity.(Father, Son and Holy Spirit)

7.Since the Person of Jesus claims the attributes of Divinity(John 3:13,8:58,Matthew 9:2,12:8), then the Person of Jesus is a member of the Trinity.( John 14-16, Math 28:19)

Anything said of either of Christ's two natures applies to the one Person of Christ, so that is how it is said that Christ died on the cross. The term "hypostatic union" refers to the two natures united in the one Person, so anything said of those two natures in the one Person applies to the whole Person. So we see that the Person of Christ is both God and man. The phrase hypostatic union was adopted by the fifth general council at Constantinople, 533 AD. That council declared that the union of two natures is real (against Arius), not a mere indwelling of God in a man (against Nestorius), with a rational soul (against Apollinaris), and that in Christ’s Divine nature remains unchanged (against Eutyches).

hope this helps !!!
 
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ReverendRV

Well-known member
@tbeachhead This is what happens when a Thread is moved to another Forum, those people start teaching their beliefs in your Arena. Maybe that will cause it to be moved back, Lol. Enjoy my Gospel Tract; they are an easy and good read...

Hypostatic Union ~ by Reverend RV

John 1:1+14 KJV
; In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

This is the account of how Jesus Christ came into being. The Apostle John says that Jesus is the ‘Word’ of God and that because of this, Jesus is God. There was a moment in time where the God of creation condescended and entered into his creation to become a creature; the man Jesus of Nazareth. You ask, “But how is that possible? The Bible says that God does not change!” ~ You are correct, so since God became flesh, this had to be accomplished in such a way that it would not cause God to Change. There is a Doctrine in Theology called Monophysitism which says that God did change his Essence when he became flesh; but because God does not change we know that this Doctrine is wrong. The correct Doctrine is called the Hypostatic Union. This means that God became a Man through a ‘Union’, but this does not cause a change in the nature of God. Here is an example of a Hypostatic Union found within the pages of the Bible…

People have been marrying since the beginning. Because of this, we do not have a problem understanding that ‘the two become one’. The Bible says, “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh; the husband will cleave to his wife'. The man and woman do not become a new amalgamation, but their spirits do cleave to the point they become one in a mingling, which is so extensive that their souls cannot be unwound. Even if you unite yourself with a harlot, the two have become one. ~ I watched an episode of the television show ‘Mythbusters’. They put the myth to the test that if you interlace each page of two large telephone books together, you can’t pull them apart. When applying a pulling force, the pages will cleave to one another through Friction. The Mythbusters played tug-of-war and could not pull them apart. They tied the phone books between two trucks and could not pull them apart. Finally, they tore them asunder between two tanks. This is an example of a Hypostatic Union. The two phone books were essentially ‘one’ because of their cleaving to each other, even though neither phone book became the other phone book. An Atlanta phone number did not become a phone number in a Dallas phone book because of this Union; no change of Essence took place. Jesus is the Godman because of a Hypostatic Union…

Have you kept the Ten Commandments? If you have committed adultery and become united with a harlot, then you can find forgiveness for your Sins. Go to God the Father through the Godman Jesus Christ! He is our Advocate; there is no one more suited to mend the broken relationship between men and God than the Godman himself! Jesus died on the Cross for our Sins so that we will not have to die for our Sins in an Eternal Hell; what a ‘middle man’! Have Faith in the risen Christ as your Savior and you will never be put to shame, you will be Saved from Sin and Hell and you will dwell in the paradise of Heaven. Repent of your Sins, Confess Jesus Christ as your Lord God and read your Bible. ~ But there is a sad irony; there are some who call themselves Christians who do not believe that God became flesh. They try to separate the man from God, or God from the Man. Cleave to the Lord Jesus Christ through Faith in him…

Matthew 19:6 NKJV; "So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate."
 
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Beloved Daughter

Super Member
Are you saying that they are indwelt by the Holy Spirit of God, and that Reformed believers are not?

Please clarify your stance here.

People who don't know what reformed theology teaches always have erroneous conclusions.

I'm guessing that Matt Chandler, and John Piper would disagree. They are continuationists.
 
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