Go, girl... student changes speech

BMS

Active member
But why wasn't it morally wrong for Abraham to have a sexual relationship with his sister and commit adultery with Hagar, or to butcher and cook his son as a sacrificial meal even if the god subsequently preferred to eat an old ram instead?

And why wasn't it morally wrong for Cain-an to kill his brother Abel, or for Noah's father to kill a young man since their gods even protected them from retribution
Well a number of reasons and possible reasons, but that God allowed something means anything everything is allowed is not an argument that can be upheld in scripture.

NB There is never a countenance of same sex relations in the Bible, how do you feel about that?
 

J regia

Well-known member
Well a number of reasons and possible reasons, but that God allowed something means anything everything is allowed is not an argument that can be upheld in scripture.
IOW the biblical god is not worth the paper he's printed on, given that the ten commandments etc are just man-made and change as society changes.
NB There is never a countenance of same sex relations in the Bible, how do you feel about that?
The bible only refers to anal sex of women and men which is described as vile and unseemly (Romans 1:26-27) and disgusting (Leviticus 18) as is eating oysters (Lev 11:10-12). Which is why there's nothing about female homosexuals in the bible, since they do not have anal sex like heterosexual women. And Jesus said nothing at all about same-sex relationships either and why he didn't marry (John 21:20-23).
 
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shnarkle

Well-known member
Well a number of reasons and possible reasons, but that God allowed something means anything everything is allowed is not an argument that can be upheld in scripture.

NB There is never a countenance of same sex relations in the Bible, how do you feel about that?
The description of the relationship between David and Jonathan looks like a pretty compelling example.
 

BMS

Active member
The description of the relationship between David and Jonathan looks like a pretty compelling example.
How? Both David and Jonathan were married to women, and David saw, lusted after and had sex with another man's wife.
Jonathan was prepared to put his life in danger to stand with David. No wonder David loved Jonathan more than a woman.
To try and assume anything homosexual between David and Jonathan one must be thinking of homosexuality whilst one reads the passages. The hebrew text describes David sleeping/lying with Bathseba but it doesnt describe David and Jonathan lying/sleeping with each other.
No not a convincing assumption at all.
 

J regia

Well-known member
How? Both David and Jonathan were married to women, and David saw, lusted after and had sex with another man's wife.
Jonathan was prepared to put his life in danger to stand with David. No wonder David loved Jonathan more than a woman.
To try and assume anything homosexual between David and Jonathan one must be thinking of homosexuality whilst one reads the passages. The hebrew text describes David sleeping/lying with Bathseba but it doesnt describe David and Jonathan lying/sleeping with each other.
No not a convincing assumption at all.
David, however, compared his love with Jonathon to that with his wives and concubines and not to the love from his parents or his family.
 

BMS

Active member
David, however, compared his love with Jonathon to that with his wives and concubines and not to the love from his parents or his family.
Compared his love, not his sex life!
And the reason is because Jonathan was prepared to stand with David in mortal danger.
As Jesus said, no greater love than laying down one's life for a friend.
 

Authentic Nouveau

Well-known member
But why wasn't it morally wrong for Abraham to have a sexual relationship with his sister and commit adultery with Hagar, or to butcher and cook his son as a sacrificial meal even if the god subsequently preferred to eat an old ram instead?

And why wasn't it morally wrong for Cain-an to kill his brother Abel, or for Noah's father to kill a young man since their gods even protected them from retribution (Gen 4)?
There was no Biblical character by the name of Cain-an.

How should God punish evil that lies about the Bible?
 

J regia

Well-known member
There was no Biblical character by the name of Cain-an.

How should God punish evil that lies about the Bible?
It still wasn't morally wrong for Abel to be killed by his brother, nor for Noah's father to kill a young man (Genesis 4), nor for Abraham to butcher and cook his son as a sacrificial meal for a god since the ten commandments etc didn't apply to them.
 

BMS

Active member
I see no reason why not, given that he compared his love with Jonathon to his intimate relationships with his wives and concubines, and not to his other relationships.
But there is no foundation for your assumption about his love being homosexual. Nowhere in the Bible are same sex relations described as 'love' or anything other than condemned.
You arent letting the Biblical testimony speak for itself, you are just thinking about homosexuality when you read it
 

BMS

Active member
Jesus said no greater love than a man lay down his life FOR a friend.. not lay down with his friend.

Have to have pretty perverted thinking to associate Jonathan and David with homosexuality
 

Temujin

Well-known member
Jesus said no greater love than a man lay down his life FOR a friend.. not lay down with his friend.

Have to have pretty perverted thinking to associate Jonathan and David with homosexuality
Actually, in ancient times, the one idea was used to promote the other. In the Greek phalanx, a hoplite's shield covered the body of the man standing next to him, while he was covered by the hoplite on the other side. Soldiers were encouraged to sleep together to promote the bond which kept the phalanx strong. This also accounts for the tendency for the phalanx to crab to the right as each man sought to get fully behind the shield of his neighbour.
 

BMS

Active member
Actually, in ancient times, the one idea was used to promote the other. In the Greek phalanx, a hoplite's shield covered the body of the man standing next to him, while he was covered by the hoplite on the other side. Soldiers were encouraged to sleep together to promote the bond which kept the phalanx strong. This also accounts for the tendency for the phalanx to crab to the right as each man sought to get fully behind the shield of his neighbour.
And? Also of course David committed murder and coveted his neighbour's wife and comitted adultery. We know they are wrong from the levitical laws. God punished him for them. We also know homosexual relations were punishable according to the law so onviously not something David and Jonathan comitted.

All the evidence shows there is no evidence to support the idea that there was homosexual acts between David and Jonathan... not sure how a Roman soldier with a shield gets a mention.
 

BMS

Active member
Maybe the girl can teach the medical profession to stop referring to babies in the womb.

Maybe she will end up discovering how pigs bladders can be employed to prevent earthquakes 😀
 

Temujin

Well-known member
And? Also of course David committed murder and coveted his neighbour's wife and comitted adultery. We know they are wrong from the levitical laws. God punished him for them. We also know homosexual relations were punishable according to the law so onviously not something David and Jonathan comitted.

All the evidence shows there is no evidence to support the idea that there was homosexual acts between David and Jonathan... not sure how a Roman soldier with a shield gets a mention.
It was merely a little factoid, several times more interesting than Leviticus, but then, what isn't? Where do you get Roman from? Iron Age Roman soldiers fought in a quite different way, several centuries after the Greek phalanx. Romans came from Rome, in present day Italy. Bronze Age Greeks came from the city States such as Athens and Spartan, in present day Greece. Even their shields were completely different.
 

J regia

Well-known member
And? Also of course David committed murder and coveted his neighbour's wife and comitted adultery. We know they are wrong from the levitical laws. God punished him for them. We also know homosexual relations were punishable according to the law so onviously not something David and Jonathan comitted.

All the evidence shows there is no evidence to support the idea that there was homosexual acts between David and Jonathan... not sure how a Roman soldier with a shield gets a mention.
The bible, however, only refers to anal sex of women and men (Lev 18 Romans 1:26-27), which is why the bible says nothing at all about female homosexual relations.

And compared to being an adulterous murderer, being a bisexual was a minor issue since it's not even mentioned in the ten commandments, even though Jonathon's father was disgusted with Jonathon's relationship with David (1Sam 20:30).
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
How? Both David and Jonathan were married to women, and David saw, lusted after and had sex with another man's wife.
So what? So did the Greeks, but that never stopped them from engaging in homosexual behavior.
Jonathan was prepared to put his life in danger to stand with David. No wonder David loved Jonathan more than a woman.
And yet how much more intimate can one get than the intimacy between a man and a woman?
To try and assume anything homosexual
"And Jonathan stripped himself of the robe that was upon him, and gave it to David, and his garments, even to his sword, and to his bow, and to his girdle" 1 Sam. 18:4

Why is that even necessary for him to strip down completely naked? Looking the other way, and pretending this is perfectly acceptable doesn't cut it.
 

J regia

Well-known member
So what? So did the Greeks, but that never stopped them from engaging in homosexual behavior.

And yet how much more intimate can one get than the intimacy between a man and a woman?

"And Jonathan stripped himself of the robe that was upon him, and gave it to David, and his garments, even to his sword, and to his bow, and to his girdle" 1 Sam. 18:4

Why is that even necessary for him to strip down completely naked? Looking the other way, and pretending this is perfectly acceptable doesn't cut it.
And presumably they had more than just a kiss and a cuddle and a cry too after Jonathon sent the little boy away (1Sam 20:41).
 

BMS

Active member
So what? So did the Greeks, but that never stopped them from engaging in homosexual behavior.

And yet how much more intimate can one get than the intimacy between a man and a woman?

"And Jonathan stripped himself of the robe that was upon him, and gave it to David, and his garments, even to his sword, and to his bow, and to his girdle" 1 Sam. 18:4

Why is that even necessary for him to strip down completely naked? Looking the other way, and pretending this is perfectly acceptable doesn't cut it.
Obviously not homosexual as explained. You would need to know the significance of the robe and the event in Biblical context.
Indeed for someone to consider sexual intimay more important than life and death, thats some ideology you have there.... but would explain completely why you support the killing of human offspring in the womb by pro-choice abortion.
 
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