God and the desire to save

TomFL

Well-known member
Matt. 23:37 —ESV
“¶ “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing!”

2 Cor. 5:20 —ESV
“Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.”

Rom. 10:21 —ESV
“¶ But of Israel he says, “All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and contrary people.”

Ezek. 18:31 —ESV
“Cast away from you all the transgressions that you have committed, and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! Why will you die, O house of Israel?”

Ezek. 33:11 —ESV
“Say to them, As I live, declares the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live; turn back, turn back from your evil ways, for why will you die, O house of Israel?”

Is. 45:22 —ESV
“¶ “Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other.”

Rev. 22:17 —ESV
“¶ The Spirit and the Bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who desires take the water of life without price.”''

2 Pet. 3:9 —ESV
“The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.”
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
<sigh>

Here you go again... Quoting a bunch of verses that EVERYONE accepts, yet refusing to exegete them, and refusing to even explain what you think they mean, and why you are quoting them.

I'll address a couple of them:

Matt. 23:37 —ESV
“¶ “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing!”

This is commonly trotted out as a "proof-text", without people actually reading it properly.
It is usually used as an argument against irresistible grace.

But if you read it carefully, it doesn't refute IG at all.

There are actually THREE groups of people in play here, not two.
There are (1) Jesus, "the hen", (2) her brood ("your children"), and (3) the Pharisees ("you were not willing").

Jesus is saying that the PHARISEES were not willing for Jesus to gather their "children", NOT that the children themselves weren't willing.

And the text does NOT say whether the children were ultimately gathered or not, only that the Pharisees were in the attitude of trying to prevent it.




Rom. 10:21 —ESV
“¶ But of Israel he says, “All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and contrary people.”
Not sure what you think that means.
Maybe you'll tell us.
Probably not.

2 Pet. 3:9 —ESV
“The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.”

This is actually a great verse, but unfortunately it has been misinterpreted by many.
The problem is that people EISEGETE the passage, and they tell you what you EXPECT it to say, rather than actually reading the passage and finding out what it actually means.

In reality, the passage is a wonderful promise supporting the perseverance of the saints. But people have instead bastardized it and twisted it to try to teach "unlimited atonement".

Here is what we read in 2 Pet. 3:

2 Pet. 3:1 This is now the second letter that I am writing to you, beloved. In both of them I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder,

So if we go back to the beginning of the chapter, we see two things. Peter is writing to a SPECIFIC group, called "the beloved". They are those to whom he has written two letters, this one, and the "previous" one. The previous one is obviously 1 Peter. Does that epistle give us any clues as to who the "beloved" are, the recipients of these letters?:

1 Peter, 1:1 an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who are elect exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

So Peter is writing both these letters to the "beloved", who are the "elect", dispersed throughout the lands.

Back to 2 Pet. 3:

2 Pet. 3:2 that you should remember the predictions of the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior through your apostles, 3 knowing this first of all, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires. 4 They will say, “Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation.” 5 For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God, 6 and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished. 7 But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.


So here Peter switches from referring to the "beloved", the 2nd person (direct address), to referring to a DIFFERENT group, the "scoffers", referring to them in the 3rd person.


2 Pet. 3:8 But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Now Peter switches BACK to the "beloved". He is no longer referring to the "scoffers" group, but tot he "beloved" group. Vv. 8-9 are about the "beloved" group.

2 Pet. 3:9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

Verse 9 here is about "you" (plural), referring to a group in the 2nd person (direct address), the same group that he calls the "beloved". It is to THAT group (not the "scoffers", above) that the "promise" is for, that God is "patient" towards, and is "not willing that any (of the beloved) should perish".

This is not a "universal" statement.
It is speaking SPECIFICALLY of the "beloved" (v.8), of the "you".

And NONE of the "beloved" will perish, but ALL of the "beloved" will reach repentance.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Matt. 23:37 —ESV
“¶ “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing!”

2 Cor. 5:20 —ESV
“Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.”

Rom. 10:21 —ESV
“¶ But of Israel he says, “All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and contrary people.”

Ezek. 18:31 —ESV
“Cast away from you all the transgressions that you have committed, and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! Why will you die, O house of Israel?”

Ezek. 33:11 —ESV
“Say to them, As I live, declares the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live; turn back, turn back from your evil ways, for why will you die, O house of Israel?”

Is. 45:22 —ESV
“¶ “Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other.”

Rev. 22:17 —ESV
“¶ The Spirit and the Bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who desires take the water of life without price.”''

2 Pet. 3:9 —ESV
“The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.”
I know you didn't study one of those verses. But in any case, everything God desires He does it Job 23:13

But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
I know you didn't study one of those verses. But in any case, everything God desires He does it Job 23:13

But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth.
Actually you know nothing and you surely do not address the verse themselves

Matt. 23:37 —ESV
“¶ “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing!”

2 Cor. 5:20 —ESV
“Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.”

Rom. 10:21 —ESV
“¶ But of Israel he says, “All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and contrary people.”

Ezek. 18:31 —ESV
“Cast away from you all the transgressions that you have committed, and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! Why will you die, O house of Israel?”

Ezek. 33:11 —ESV
“Say to them, As I live, declares the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live; turn back, turn back from your evil ways, for why will you die, O house of Israel?”

Is. 45:22 —ESV
“¶ “Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other.”

Rev. 22:17 —ESV
“¶ The Spirit and the Bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who desires take the water of life without price.”''

2 Pet. 3:9 —ESV
“The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.”
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Actually you know nothing and you surely do not address the verse themselves

Matt. 23:37 —ESV
“¶ “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing!”

2 Cor. 5:20 —ESV
“Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.”

Rom. 10:21 —ESV
“¶ But of Israel he says, “All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and contrary people.”

Ezek. 18:31 —ESV
“Cast away from you all the transgressions that you have committed, and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! Why will you die, O house of Israel?”

Ezek. 33:11 —ESV
“Say to them, As I live, declares the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live; turn back, turn back from your evil ways, for why will you die, O house of Israel?”

Is. 45:22 —ESV
“¶ “Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other.”

Rev. 22:17 —ESV
“¶ The Spirit and the Bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who desires take the water of life without price.”''

2 Pet. 3:9 —ESV
“The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.”
What God desires He does!
 

TomFL

Well-known member
<sigh>

Here you go again... Quoting a bunch of verses that EVERYONE accepts, yet refusing to exegete them, and refusing to even explain what you think they mean, and why you are quoting them.

I'll address a couple of them:


Save the sighs they accomplish nothing

i posted

Matt. 23:37 —ESV
“¶ “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing!”

2 Cor. 5:20 —ESV
“Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.”

Rom. 10:21 —ESV
“¶ But of Israel he says, “All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and contrary people.”

Ezek. 18:31 —ESV
“Cast away from you all the transgressions that you have committed, and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! Why will you die, O house of Israel?”

Ezek. 33:11 —ESV
“Say to them, As I live, declares the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live; turn back, turn back from your evil ways, for why will you die, O house of Israel?”

Is. 45:22 —ESV
“¶ “Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other.”

Rev. 22:17 —ESV
“¶ The Spirit and the Bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who desires take the water of life without price.”''

2 Pet. 3:9 —ESV
“The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.”
Mt 23:37


This is commonly trotted out as a "proof-text", without people actually reading it properly.
It is usually used as an argument against irresistible grace.

But if you read it carefully, it doesn't refute IG at all.
Which is totally irrelevant for I am not addressing irresistible grace

Just showing as according to the title the desire to save

so snip

It does not address my purpose in posting


Rom. 10:21 —ESV
“¶ But of Israel he says, “All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and contrary people.”




Not sure what you think that means.
Maybe you'll tell us.
Probably not.

It's very Very simple if you read the title

God's desire to save
2 Pet. 3:9 —ESV
“The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.”


This is actually a great verse, but unfortunately it has been misinterpreted by many.
The problem is that people EISEGETE the passage, and they tell you what you EXPECT it to say, rather than actually reading the passage and finding out what it actually means.

In reality, the passage is a wonderful promise supporting the perseverance of the saints. But people have instead bastardized it and twisted it to try to teach "unlimited atonement".

Now did I mention unlimited atonement ?

So why do you ?

Again the title of the op should tell you why the verses were posted

nothing you state actually relates to my purpose in posting
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Save the sighs they accomplish nothing

<sigh>
Your inability to spell accomplishes nothing, either.... ;)


You seem to have two basic skills:

1) insulting posters;
2) reposting the same thing 10 million times.

It does not address my purpose in posting

Here's a thought... Why don't you break the suspense and simply TELL us your "purpose in posting"? Or is it some sort of a secret?

It's very Very simple if you read the title

God's desire to save

Can you elaborate?
(Apparently not...)

Again the title of the op should tell you why the verses were posted

Well, why don't you use your "words", and simply explain it to us?
Or is it a secret?

nothing you state actually relates to my purpose in posting

Well, I wouldn't know, since you refuse to TELL us your "purpose in posting"...
 

TomFL

Well-known member
<sigh>
Your inability to spell accomplishes nothing, either.... ;)



You seem to have two basic skills:

1) insulting posters;
2) reposting the same thing 10 million times.


Have you started bickering already ?

Care to point out where I have posted anything 10 million times ?

just maybe you should spent more time actually addressing what is posted

than on the stuff you do post

And if you read my reply you should know why I posted

It was pointed out to you
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Care to point out where I have posted anything 10 million times ?

Some of your posts are getting up there.
But to have to post the same thing more than once, without giving any discussion, is basically wasting everyone's time here.

just maybe you should spent more time actually addressing what is posted

How so?
All you did was post Scripture.
And Calvinists AGREE with all the Scripture.
So what exactly is there to "address"?

Why don't YOU "address" what YOU think those verses mean, and why YOU think they are relevant to your topic title?

And if you read my reply you should know why I posted

Why don't you try giving commentary on each verse, and explain how it relates to the title of your thread? Or are you unable to do that?
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Some of your posts are getting up there.
But to have to post the same thing more than once, without giving any discussion, is basically wasting everyone's time here.



How so?
All you did was post Scripture.
And Calvinists AGREE with all the Scripture.
So what exactly is there to "address"?

Why don't YOU "address" what YOU think those verses mean, and why YOU think they are relevant to your topic title?



Why don't you try giving commentary on each verse, and explain how it relates to the title of your thread? Or are you unable to do that?
If you agree with the scripture and the op purpose which was to show divine desire for the salvation of men

what is the problem ?

Are you telling you cannot understand how those verses relate to a desire to save ?
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
If you agree with the scripture and the op purpose which was to show divine desire for the salvation of men

Well, as has been made clear over the past many months, you and Calvinists disagree on the meaning of Scripture.

Yet just like many other cultists who go against the Bible, you ASSUME a meaning, and refuse to actually show an EXEGESIS that the Scripture actually teaches what you falsely claim it does.

You are like another poster here, who has claimed, "I don't interpret the text, I simply believe what it says", which is a nonsensical statement, since it is impossible to understand a text without first "interpreting" it.

what is the problem ?

Are you telling you cannot understand how those verses relate to a desire to save ?

I understand them just fine.
But you are too afraid to share YOUR INTERPRETATION of them, since you know we will demonstrate that your misinterpretation is impossible according to the actual text.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Well, as has been made clear over the past many months, you and Calvinists disagree on the meaning of Scripture.

Yet just like many other cultists who go against the Bible, you ASSUME a meaning, and refuse to actually show an EXEGESIS that the Scripture actually teaches what you falsely claim it does.
The fact is

You often do not address rebuttal and when your errors are pointed out you cry harassments and refuse to address anything

BTW save your cultist name calling. Discuss issues
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Well, as has been made clear over the past many months, you and Calvinists disagree on the meaning of Scripture.

Yet just like many other cultists who go against the Bible, you ASSUME a meaning, and refuse to actually show an EXEGESIS that the Scripture actually teaches what you falsely claim it does.

Cultist ?

I am more orthodox than you are

Calvinism is not the majority view

and for the first 400 years of Christian history the only groups to hold to determination were Gnostics and Manichees

both of which were cultist groups

To be consistent You would have to label the entire church for that same 400 years as cultist and the cultist Gnostics and Manichees orthodox

You would do better to address issues than call names
 
Last edited:

brightfame52

Well-known member
Cultist ?

I am more orthodox than you are

Calvinism is not the majority view

and for the first 400 years of Christian history the only groups to hold to determination were Gnostics and Manichees

both of which were cultist groups

To be consistent You would have to label the entire church for that same 400 years as cultist and the cultist Gnostics and Manichees orthodox

You would do better to address issues than call names
I see you have a problem not realizing that what God desires that He performs. All the men He desires to be saved shall be saved, which boils down to His Sheep or His Elect!
 

TomFL

Well-known member
I see you have a problem not realizing that what God desires that He performs. All the men He desires to be saved shall be saved, which boils down to His Sheep or His Elect!
Totally unrelated to the post you replied to

However you have a problem

1 Tim. 2:4 —ESV
who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.”
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Totally unrelated to the post you replied to

However you have a problem

1 Tim. 2:4 —ESV
who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.”
Do you believe Christ saves them He desires to save? Yes or No?
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Well those He desires to save He will save since it is true of Him this Job 23 13

But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth.
As noted elsewhere then you have got problems for

1 Tim. 2:3–5 —ESV
“This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior,
who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,”

what will you do with this scripture
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
As noted elsewhere then you have got problems for

1 Tim. 2:3–5 —ESV
“This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior,
who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,”

what will you do with this scripture
The ones God wishes to be saved, will be saved, since He does as He wishes Job 23:13

But he is in one mind, and who can turn him?
and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth.
 
Top