God complex, and belief Joseph Smith is a God.

Richard7 said:
Well here it is Markk, what is your point? He was corrected by David and yet he stated he heard him the first time very clearly...guess you missed that Markk.... my point is that David is so sketchy he even confuses his interviewers, states one thing and then demands it be changed.
States also that the plates were found by the seer stone, then take back after the lost 116 pages and Moroni never gave back the seer stones or the plates, then he say he was a witness of the plates when in the Whitmer home. He also stated he hated JS and wanted to be inserted as the Head of the Church. He rejected the Church and its teachings except for the Book of Mormon... its all history Markk, all you have to do is read the right sources and quit with your way off opinions and second and third hand accounts... David was only a first hand account to the viewing of the Gold plates shown by Moroni... all else good buddy he mostly made up...
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Ralf, he is complaining that he never said it...LOL, come on.

All the witness, except the Smith's, turned on Joseph, everyone...and Oliver accused him of adultery and was Ex'd for it. Good luck on trying to paint David as the only one that spoke out against Joseph...in the end most all key players did.

Your response above is just an emotional plea in that you understand you are in a faith crisis, in your admitting the church is hemorrhaging.

More later
 
Richard7 said:
For doubters that David Whitmer ever denied his testimony as one of the witness regariding seeing a angel and hearing the voice of God as he revealed the gold plates, Laban's sword, the Compass and the Urim and thummim...


A sampling of quotes from and about David Whitmer’s witness:​

“My testimony to the world is written concerning the Book of Mormon, and it is the same that I gave at first and it is the same as shall stand to my latest hour in life, linger with me in death and shine as Gospel Truth beyond the limits of life, among the Tribunals of Heaven, and [that] the Nations of the Earth will have known to[o] late the divine truth written on the pages of that book is the only sorrow of this servant of the Almighty Father.”

-David Whitmer to Mark H. Frorscutt, 2 March 1875, Scrapbook, 16-17; First-hand account.

“My testimony to the Book of Mormon is true and I am admonished neither to add to nor take from my testimony already appended to the Book. And if I should do so must be extremely guarded under the risk of being misunderstood.”

-David Whitmer, to Heman C. Smith, 5 December 1876, Community of Christ Library-Archives; First-hand account.

“As you read my testimony given many years ago, so it stands as my own existence; the same as when I gave it, and so shall stand throughout the cycles of eternity.”

-David Whitmer in letter to James N. Seymond, cited in Saints’ Herald 26 (15 July 1879): 223-24; cited in Dan Vogel, Early Mormon Documents, 5 vols, 5:219. First-hand account.

“My testimony as published in connection with the Book of Mormon is true—And why Should men ask to know more in regard to all the particulars connected with that all Overshadowing truth—If they will not believe the three and 8 witnesses would they believe though one Should arise from the dead, testify to its truth again?”

-David Whitmer, to S. T. Mouch, 18 November 1882, Richmond, Missouri, Whitmer Papers, Communty of Christ LIbrary-Archives; First-hand account.

“In June, 1829, the Lord called Oliver Cowdery, Martin Harris, and myself as the three witnesses, to behold the vision of the Angel, as recorded in the fore part of the Book of Mormon, and to bear testimony to the world that the Book of Mormon is true. I was not called to bear testimony to the mission of Brother Joseph Smith any farther than his work of translating the Book of Mormon, as you can see by reading the testimony of us three witnesses.”

-David Whitmer, An Address to All Believers in Christ by a Witness to the Divine Authenticity of The Book of Mormon, 31; First-hand account.

“[O]f course would tell you about my vision of the Angel. You ask me if I saw the Angel when he brought the plates. I saw the angel when he brought the plates, and the Angel told us that we must bear testimony to the world, as contained in my testimony written in the Book of Mormon. Doubt not—sister—the Book of Mormon is the Word of God.”

-David Whitmer, to Sister Gates, 11 February 1887, Richmond, Missouri, David Whitmer Papers, Community of Christ Library-Archives; First-hand account.


“I did see the Angel as it is recorded in my testimony in the Book of Mormon. The Book is true.”

-David Whitmer, to Robert Nelson, 15 February 1887, Richmond, Missouri, David Whitmer Papers, Community of Christ Library-Archives; First-hand account.


“In regards to my testimony to the visitation of the angel, who declared to us three witnesses that the Book of Mormon is true, I have this to say: Of course we were in the spirit when we had the view, for no man can behold the face of an angel, except in a spiritual view, but we were in the body also, and everything was as natural to us, as it is at any time… A bright light enveloped us where we were, that filled [the woods as] at noon day, and there in a vision or in the spirit, we saw and heard just as it is stated in my testimony in the Book of Mormon.”

-David Whitmer, to Anthony Metcalf, 2 April 1887; Ten Years before the Mast, 73-74; First-hand account.


“It is recorded in the American Cyclopedia and the Encyclopedia Britannica, that I, David Whitmer, have denied my testimony as one of the Three Witnesses to the divinity of the Book of Mormon: and that the two other witnesses, Oliver Cowdery and Martin Harris, denied their testimony to that book. I will say once more to all mankind, that I have never at any time denied that testimony or any part thereof. I also testify to the world, that neither Oliver Cowdery nor Martin Harris ever at any time denied their testimony. They both died affirming the truth of the divine authenticity of the Book of Mormon.”

-David Whitmer, An Address to All Believers in Christ by a Witness to the Divine Authenticity of The Book of Mormon. First-hand account.
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LOL... I thought you said he is very forgetful, confused, and a known liar?

Also note the last source you quote is the same source that President nelson used in teaching Joseph used a seer stone in his hat.

Ralf Click Here
 
Markk said:
LOL... I thought you said he is very forgetful, confused, and a known liar?

Also note the last source you quote is the same source that President nelson used in teaching Joseph used a seer stone in his hat.

Ralf Click Here
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Comes with age Markk... for 50 yrs he kept away from any church and then his memory wacked out or maybe his hatred for JS did him in...
 
Markk said:
LOL... I thought you said he is very forgetful, confused, and a known liar?

Also note the last source you quote is the same source that President nelson used in teaching Joseph used a seer stone in his hat.

Ralf Click Here
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Alert, "this site can't be reached", still learning to get your sources to work... chuckle.
 
Markk said:
Ralf, he is complaining that he never said it...LOL, come on.
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Yep he did tell him to change the interview and he would sign it..... but his memory which I would say was a lot better than Davids, stated he heard what he heard and even if he had to change it, he would not change his mind of what David stated... sketchy is sketchy, now you're stating to see why there are so many different accounts as Pres. Nelson did note... hmm


Markk said:
All the witness, except the Smith's, turned on Joseph, everyone...and Oliver accused him of adultery and was Ex'd for it. Good luck on trying to paint David as the only one that spoke out against Joseph...in the end most all key players did.

Your response above is just an emotional plea in that you understand you are in a faith crisis, in your admitting the church is hemorrhaging.

More later
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Okay, show any quote by Oliver that he accused JS of adultery? Now lets look at this a little closer:

Some of the rumors were said to originate with Oliver Cowdery, whose formerly close relationship with Joseph had become strained over a variety of matters. Some claimed Oliver heard Joseph confess to extramarital relations with Fanny Alger.11 In fall 1837, Joseph Smith confronted Cowdery about the rumor in a meeting attended by at least three others. In that meeting, Cowdery refuted the rumor that Joseph had confessed to him.12 The following April, when Cowdery was tried in Missouri for his Church membership over many charges, the high council discussed the rumors Cowdery had circulated. Joseph gave an explanation of his relationship to Fanny that appears to have satisfied the high council.13 Cowdery was excommunicated during this meeting.

Fanny Alger

Fanny Alger
www.churchofjesuschrist.org




His apology:

I have cherished a hope, and that one of my fondest, that I might leave such a character as those who might believe in my testimony, after I should be called hence, might do so, not only for the sake of the truth, but might not blush for the private character of the man who bore that testimony. I have been sensitive on this subject, I admit; but I ought to be so—you would be, under the circumstances, had you stood in the presence of John, with our departed brother Joseph, to receive the Lesser Priesthood—and in the presence of Peter, to receive the Greater, and looked down through time, and witnessed the effects these two must produce,—you would feel what you have never felt, were wicked men conspiring to lessen the effects of your testimony on man, after you should have gone to your long sought rest.

Brigham Young and the Twelve to Oliver Cowdery, 19 April 1943, Nauvoo, Illinois, retained copy, Church History Library.

Oliver said:

I wrote, with my own pen, the entire Book of Mormon (save a few pages) as it fell from the lips of the Prophet Joseph Smith, as he translated it by the gift and power of God …. I beheld with my eyes, and handled with my hands, the gold plates from which it was transcribed. … The book is true.11
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Oliver said:
Jacob, I want you to remember what I say to you. I am a dying man, and what would it profit me to tell you a lie? I know … that this Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God. My eyes saw, my ears heard, and my understanding was touched, and I know that whereof I testified is true. It was no dream, no vain imagination of the mind—it was real.
 
Richard7 said:
Yep he did tell him to change the interview and he would sign it..... but his memory which I would say was a lot better than Davids, stated he heard what he heard and even if he had to change it, he would not change his mind of what David stated... sketchy is sketchy, now you're stating to see why there are so many different accounts as Pres. Nelson did note... hmm



Okay, show any quote by Oliver that he accused JS of adultery? Now lets look at this a little closer:

Some of the rumors were said to originate with Oliver Cowdery, whose formerly close relationship with Joseph had become strained over a variety of matters. Some claimed Oliver heard Joseph confess to extramarital relations with Fanny Alger.11 In fall 1837, Joseph Smith confronted Cowdery about the rumor in a meeting attended by at least three others. In that meeting, Cowdery refuted the rumor that Joseph had confessed to him.12 The following April, when Cowdery was tried in Missouri for his Church membership over many charges, the high council discussed the rumors Cowdery had circulated. Joseph gave an explanation of his relationship to Fanny that appears to have satisfied the high council.13 Cowdery was excommunicated during this meeting.

Fanny Alger

Fanny Alger
www.churchofjesuschrist.org




His apology:

I have cherished a hope, and that one of my fondest, that I might leave such a character as those who might believe in my testimony, after I should be called hence, might do so, not only for the sake of the truth, but might not blush for the private character of the man who bore that testimony. I have been sensitive on this subject, I admit; but I ought to be so—you would be, under the circumstances, had you stood in the presence of John, with our departed brother Joseph, to receive the Lesser Priesthood—and in the presence of Peter, to receive the Greater, and looked down through time, and witnessed the effects these two must produce,—you would feel what you have never felt, were wicked men conspiring to lessen the effects of your testimony on man, after you should have gone to your long sought rest.

Brigham Young and the Twelve to Oliver Cowdery, 19 April 1943, Nauvoo, Illinois, retained copy, Church History Library.

Oliver said:



Oliver said:
Jacob, I want you to remember what I say to you. I am a dying man, and what would it profit me to tell you a lie? I know … that this Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God. My eyes saw, my ears heard, and my understanding was touched, and I know that whereof I testified is true. It was no dream, no vain imagination of the mind—it was real.
Click to expand...
It wasn't just Oliver who knew about the affair with Fannie Alger.

josephsmithspolygamy.org

Fanny Alger–Evidence of Sexuality - Joseph Smith's Polygamy

Five documents indicate that Joseph Smith may have experienced conjugal relations with his first plural wife, Fanny Alger. The earliest is from Oliver Cowdery in a private letter written January […]
josephsmithspolygamy.org josephsmithspolygamy.org
 
Richard7 said:
Comes with age Markk... for 50 yrs he kept away from any church and then his memory wacked out or maybe his hatred for JS did him in...
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His testimony compliments Emma's, Martin's, and Elizabeth's...and accepted by the current general authorities and championed by the prophet in a video to primary children.

Ralf, this will be second nature to the primary children, and the plan of the GA to make it the new narrative, that is the true narrative.
 
Markk said:
His testimony compliments Emma's, Martin's, and Elizabeth's...and accepted by the current general authorities and championed by the prophet in a video to primary children.

Ralf, this will be second nature to the primary children, and the plan of the GA to make it the new narrative, that is the true narrative.
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That's all you got, but you don't have the witness and first hand accounts, your tried, you failed and maybe you will cut and run... whoops.
 
Richard7 said:
That's all you got, but you don't have the witness and first hand accounts, your tried, you failed and maybe you will cut and run... whoops.
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Ralf, again you are not emotional ready for this conversation.

In Joseph Smith’s day, some individuals claimed that they had a gift to “see,” or receive divine or supernatural messages, through seer stones. These beliefs came from the Bible and from European cultural traditions brought to early America by immigrants. Joseph Smith and his family accepted these beliefs, and Joseph occasionally used stones he located in the ground to help neighbors find missing objects or search for buried treasure.2

SEE THE STONE HERE
 
Markk said:
Ralf, again you are not emotional ready for this conversation.

In Joseph Smith’s day, some individuals claimed that they had a gift to “see,” or receive divine or supernatural messages, through seer stones. These beliefs came from the Bible and from European cultural traditions brought to early America by immigrants. Joseph Smith and his family accepted these beliefs, and Joseph occasionally used stones he located in the ground to help neighbors find missing objects or search for buried treasure.2

SEE THE STONE HERE
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But I'm passionate to the point my posting has been full of evidence versus your deflection and making this all about me, obviously you can't just stay to the topic without taking me down first, doesn't work that way Markk, your deflection is noted by all... hmm

Proving me inept obviously isn't working and you're seemingly not able to respond to the topic at hand with your meandering zigzagging. If you want to talk about me good buddy, start a thread about me and my weaknesses and vulnerabilities... otherwise stay on topic and address my posts, not me personally dude.
 
Richard7 said:
But I'm passionate to the point my posting has been full of evidence versus your deflection and making this all about me, obviously you can't just stay to the topic without taking me down first, doesn't work that way Markk, your deflection is noted by all... hmm

Proving me inept obviously isn't working and you're seemingly not able to respond to the topic at hand with your meandering zigzagging. If you want to talk about me good buddy, start a thread about me and my weaknesses and vulnerabilities... otherwise stay on topic and address my posts, not me personally dude.
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Ralf, you are mistaken, go back and read my assertions. I am still unclear what you position even is?

It is not that you are inept Ralf, it is that you are not open to any narrative other that the one both you, I, and Mag's were taught growing up in the church.

The internet changed everything; it has provided easy access to the historical truths of Mormonism. I understand it is not a easy transition, but it is a truthful transition. The church had to make a choice, lose members while defending a lie, or lose members by telling the truth. They obviously are choosing to assimilate the truth in, and banking on when the older generation dies off, the current and future generation will naturally accept the truth, and this is specifically in regard to our conversation about the translation process, but it obviously goes beyond that.

If you want to seem credible, then you need to read and research, and not just paste stipites out of any context that support the self-perceived narratives that have long pasted.

I am far from zig zagging, in fact I am very consistent in showing the church teaches that the BoM was translated by JS via either a seer stone, or the interpreters in his hat...you have now other option, nor have you asserted one...if I am wrong simply expound and assert your position.
 
Markk said:
Ralf, you are mistaken, go back and read my assertions. I am still unclear what you position even is?
Click to expand...

Well its not about me...."I feel for him in a way, his testimony is clearly fractured, I think we both remember the feeling...but he is his own worst enemy in not being able to separate himself from what he needs to believe and from what the church actually teaches. I view his attitude as a plea for assurance that his world is okay...yet our friend can't accept the clear history of the translation process.

Notice folks, when you obviously can't stay on track and are losing the battle they turn to going after the debater but not the debate itself... chuckle.


Markk said:
It is not that you are inept Ralf, it is that you are not open to any narrative other that the one both you, I, and Mag's were taught growing up in the church.
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Then get back on track and and begin with the counteroffensive debate...... this again should never be about me...its definitely a losing position for you my friend.


Markk said:
The internet changed everything; it has provided easy access to the historical truths of Mormonism. I understand it is not a easy transition, but it is a truthful transition. The church had to make a choice, lose members while defending a lie, or lose members by telling the truth. They obviously are choosing to assimilate the truth in, and banking on when the older generation dies off, the current and future generation will naturally accept the truth, and this is specifically in regard to our conversation about the translation process, but it obviously goes beyond that.
Click to expand...

Markk, you just don't get it, if a person stops only at the potshots and one-sided views then they most likely will end up with a excoriated criticism. Thank goodness the internet is not net negative and so much can be found that as in my case proves my points.
Yes, I can see why you may have left, your focus is on finding and researching only that which you desire to see... hmmm



Markk said:
If you want to seem credible, then you need to read and research, and not just paste stipites out of any context that support the self-perceived narratives that have long pasted.
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Not about me Markk, its what I post that scares you and makes you wonder why you ever quit.... this is good for you to see how you most likely were deceived.


Markk said:
I am far from zig zagging, in fact I am very consistent in showing the church teaches that the BoM was translated by JS via either a seer stone, or the interpreters in his hat...you have now other option, nor have you asserted one...if I am wrong simply expound and assert your position.
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Yes I quite sure I got it right, one post is all about me, another post is I will get back to you, for I'm digging deeper and then I have to keep telling you your witnesses either were not there or show how many inconstancies and variables in their stories are; if not in fact made up... try harder, I'm sure its out there somewhere, you just don't know where to look .... I found stuff that you could even use but you haven't because you don't know where to look and only desire the easy way out.
 
Richard7 said:
Nope it was #210


Huh, please, please start your own thread.. please.

Reply
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You brought up the affair with Fannie Alger…

? - God complex, and belief Joseph Smith is a God.

OOPS! I was here when he was Ralph (spelling?); then I left for several years. I like Richard, thx...
forums.carm.org

I was responding to your post. It’s relevant for this thread. You’re not the author of this thread. You don’t get to tell me to go someplace else.
 
Magdalena said:
You brought up the affair with Fannie Alger…

? - God complex, and belief Joseph Smith is a God.

OOPS! I was here when he was Ralph (spelling?); then I left for several years. I like Richard, thx...
forums.carm.org

I was responding to your post. It’s relevant for this thread. You’re not the author of this thread. You don’t get to tell me to go someplace else.
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Nope, it definitely was a suggestion.... are you to say you never asked anyone to start a new thread? chuckle. Awe, yes or no, easy question.
 
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